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RE: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!

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  • vaeringjar
    Been under the weather here, not able to respond to the very interesting thread as I would like, but, Yes, Melanie, very good question and one I was wondering
    Message 1 of 48 , Oct 8, 2013
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       Been under the weather here, not able to respond to the very interesting thread as I would like, but, Yes, Melanie, very good question and one I was wondering about too, especially the Mithraic astrological elements in it. And just how the souls enter also, from the North.


      I was wondering what Plotinus would make of all this too? After digging about some in LSJ, I noticed one citation of astrological language in Enn. II.3.1.


      Will try to respond to Mike and Marilynn later - thansk ffo r the really interesting posts.


      Dennis Clark



      ---In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      how does porphyry's 'On the Cave of the Nymphs in the Thirteenth Book of the Odyssey' play into this, if at all?
      http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/porphyry_cave_of_nymphs_02_translation.htm
      --------------------------------------------
      On Mon, 10/7/13, Marilynn Lawrence <pronoia12@...> wrote:

      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!
      To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, October 7, 2013, 7:47 PM
















       









      Dennis, 
      "Declination" is a good idea, but the
      latitude with respect to the equator wasn't really a
      device considered/interpreted in older astrology (it is used
      in contemporary astrology). There is a concept of declining
      with respect to the kentra, apoklima, but paraklisis
      wouldn't likely be a synomym for it (Porphyry would have
      know apoklima, particularly if he did in fact
      'curate' the Introduction to the
      Tetrabiblos). 

      Dan,
      Your speculation that the point could be the
      nodes of the Moon is intriguing and worth investigating.
      There is very little information about the nodes and how
      they might have been used in the Hellenistic astrology
      texts, but were/are robustly used in India and were imported
      into astrology later (such that through the Persians, the
      nodes make their way into the Dorotheus text as an add on).
      They revolve backwards through the zodiac, which may account
      interpretatively for the reversal or return of disease in
      the Orphic fragment.  

      Michael,
      I also thought it might be something like
      the paranatellonta or dodekaoros. I think he refers
      to the latter in passing in the letter to Anebo (don't
      recall). However, the twelve-hour co-risers are all animals
      except for a boat, so that's not much good in
      determining whether a soul gets to be animal or human. But
      some of the parantellonta are human or gods, so that might
      balance out the range of choices. This whole thing of
      determining animal or human birth falls outside of
      'normal' technical astrology which had humans at the
      center of its concern. Paraklisis is used as a technical
      term in the Orphic fragment, but that doesn't mean
      Porphyry was using it in the same way or according to any
      particular astrological rule. For instance, if it is a word
      for the Moon's nodes, he could be using it as the
      gateways of souls as they pass through then plop onto earth
      through the eastern horizon.  


      On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at
      5:30 PM, Goya <goya@...>
      wrote:
















       









      Thanks for this.



      The passage you reproduce is basically right, I think, but
      Werner Deuse,

      in his Untersuchngen zum mittelplatonischen und
      neuplatonischen

      Sellenlehre, Wiesbaden 1983, is critical of
      Bouché-Leclercq's

      interpretation of Porph's passage, I think rightly. He
      points out (p.

      153-54) that according to Bouché-Leclercq, the soul enters
      into the embryo

      before birth, but this is not Porphyry's view, as shown
      by the Ad Gaurum.



      Thanks, Mike



      > Hi Mike,

      >

      > I'm not a specialist but here's how
      Bouché-Leclercq's (*L'astrologie

      > grecque

      > *, p.601-602) paraphrases your passage and the
      following lines of the

      > fragment:

      > "Qu'on imagine a l'Orient, a
      I'«Horoscope», un troupeau d'âme en appétit

      > d'incarnation devant un etroit passage
      allernativement ouvert et fermé par

      > le mouvement de Ia grande roue zodiacale, celle-ci
      percée d'autant de

      > trous

      > qu'elle compte de degres. Au moment voulu, poussee
      par Ia Justice, qu'on

      > appelle aussi Ia Fortune, telle âme, I'âme
      d'un chien, par exemple, passe

      > par Ie trou horoscopique, et, l'instant
      d'apres, une arne humaine par un

      > autre trou."

      >

      > He also notes: "La même theorie est exposee par
      Proclus (in Anal. sacr.,

      > V,

      > 2, pp. 97 sqq., 137, 173 Pitra), qui voudrait voir les
      chefs d'Etat

      > attentifs au moment de Ia *spora*, pour capter les
      âmes de bon aloi. Cf.

      > ci-dessus, pp. 22, 2 et 508.

      >

      > Hope this is of any help and good luck! I am interested
      in knowing what

      > you

      > make of this.

      >

      > Olivier Dufault

      >



      Michael Chase

      CNRS UPR 76

      Paris-Villejuif

      France
    • John Dillon
      ... Yes, Bob. That would be my thought. Of course, Plato (that many-minded man) also has in mind Socrates╣ attempts to bring his fellow-citizens to a better
      Message 48 of 48 , Aug 22, 2014
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        Re: [neoplatonism] City-Soul analogy
         
         
         
           


        Hello everyone,

        John Uebersax wrote:

        what, in modern psychological terms, would the citizens of 'psychopolis' be?  To call them "passions" seems inaccurate.  "Complexes" might do.  Perhaps good candidates would be "sub-egos" or "partial egos."

        and John Dillon replied

        Of course, if the Republic is really about the anatomy — and ordering — of the individual soul, as I believe it is, then the Cave Allegory really has to be about  the constituents of an individual soul!

        I would suggest (what John Dillon may well have meant) that the best candidates for these “constituents” would be the famous “parts of the soul” from Republic iv: the appetitive part and the ’spirited’ part. These aren’t “modern psychological terms,” but it’s not difficult to paraphrase them in modern terms: desires, pride, ‘ego,’ etc.

        The soul’s “rational part” (logistikon) would correspond, of course, to the philosopher who exits the cave and returns to it with his newfound knowledge.

        Something like this interpretation seems to me to be assumed throughout the Platonic tradition, but I don’t know that I could _document_ this before modern times (Hegel).

        Best, Bob Wallace





        More on the City-Soul analogy.
        Suppose we accept that the Republic is primarily a psychological allegory, not a treatise on civil government. What then to make of the Cave Allegory?  
        The usual view, of course, sees the allegory's protagonist as a philosopher, who, having seen Truth, feels obliged to return to society to try to liberate others.  But wouldn't it be more consistent with a psychological reading to see the other prisoners as elements of ones *own* soul, which ones 'inner philosopher' seeks to liberate or redeem?
        Such an interpretation seems plausible, but I've never seen it mentioned or even hinted at.  Has it any precedent in the Platonic tradition?
        It's similar, incidentally, to Philo's interpretation of Moses as a saving disposition or element of the soul.
        More generally, what, in modern psychological terms, would the citizens of 'psychopolis' be?  To call them "passions" seems inaccurate.  "Complexes" might do.  Perhaps good candidates would be "sub-egos" or "partial egos."
        Best,
        John Uebersax

           



        John, I think that that is a most important insight, and I don’t actually think that I have seen it raised elsewhere. Of course, if the Republic is really about the anatomy — and orderign — of the individual soul, as I believe it is, then the Cave Allegory really has to be about  the constituents of an individual soul! John



        Robert Wallace
        website: www.robertmwallace.com <http://www.robertmwallace.com>  
        blog: http.//robertmwallace.blogspot.com <http://robertmwallace.blogspot.com>
        email: bob@...
        phone: 414-617-3914










         
           



        Yes, Bob. That would be my thought. Of course, Plato (that many-minded man) also has in mind Socrates’ attempts to bring his fellow-citizens to a better frame of mind, and their hostile reaction to that, but primarily the ‘re-descent into the Cave’ should relate to the concern of the now-enlightened rational part of the soul to convey that enlightenment to the two lower parts (and their resistance to that!). And I can’t say that I have seen that much discussed, oddly enough, though I may well have missed something. John
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