RE: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!
Been under the weather here, not able to respond to the very interesting thread as I would like, but, Yes, Melanie, very good question and one I was wondering about too, especially the Mithraic astrological elements in it. And just how the souls enter also, from the North.
I was wondering what Plotinus would make of all this too? After digging about some in LSJ, I noticed one citation of astrological language in Enn. II.3.1.
Will try to respond to Mike and Marilynn later - thansk ffo r the really interesting posts.
---In email@example.com, <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:how does porphyry's 'On the Cave of the Nymphs in the Thirteenth Book of the Odyssey' play into this, if at all?
On Mon, 10/7/13, Marilynn Lawrence <pronoia12@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!
To: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Monday, October 7, 2013, 7:47 PM
"Declination" is a good idea, but the
latitude with respect to the equator wasn't really a
device considered/interpreted in older astrology (it is used
in contemporary astrology). There is a concept of declining
with respect to the kentra, apoklima, but paraklisis
wouldn't likely be a synomym for it (Porphyry would have
know apoklima, particularly if he did in fact
'curate' the Introduction to the
Your speculation that the point could be the
nodes of the Moon is intriguing and worth investigating.
There is very little information about the nodes and how
they might have been used in the Hellenistic astrology
texts, but were/are robustly used in India and were imported
into astrology later (such that through the Persians, the
nodes make their way into the Dorotheus text as an add on).
They revolve backwards through the zodiac, which may account
interpretatively for the reversal or return of disease in
the Orphic fragment.
I also thought it might be something like
the paranatellonta or dodekaoros. I think he refers
to the latter in passing in the letter to Anebo (don't
recall). However, the twelve-hour co-risers are all animals
except for a boat, so that's not much good in
determining whether a soul gets to be animal or human. But
some of the parantellonta are human or gods, so that might
balance out the range of choices. This whole thing of
determining animal or human birth falls outside of
'normal' technical astrology which had humans at the
center of its concern. Paraklisis is used as a technical
term in the Orphic fragment, but that doesn't mean
Porphyry was using it in the same way or according to any
particular astrological rule. For instance, if it is a word
for the Moon's nodes, he could be using it as the
gateways of souls as they pass through then plop onto earth
through the eastern horizon.
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at
5:30 PM, Goya <goya@...>
Thanks for this.
The passage you reproduce is basically right, I think, but
in his Untersuchngen zum mittelplatonischen und
Sellenlehre, Wiesbaden 1983, is critical of
interpretation of Porph's passage, I think rightly. He
points out (p.
153-54) that according to Bouché-Leclercq, the soul enters
into the embryo
before birth, but this is not Porphyry's view, as shown
by the Ad Gaurum.
> Hi Mike,
> I'm not a specialist but here's how
> *, p.601-602) paraphrases your passage and the
following lines of the
> "Qu'on imagine a l'Orient, a
I'«Horoscope», un troupeau d'âme en appétit
> d'incarnation devant un etroit passage
allernativement ouvert et fermé par
> le mouvement de Ia grande roue zodiacale, celle-ci
percée d'autant de
> qu'elle compte de degres. Au moment voulu, poussee
par Ia Justice, qu'on
> appelle aussi Ia Fortune, telle âme, I'âme
d'un chien, par exemple, passe
> par Ie trou horoscopique, et, l'instant
d'apres, une arne humaine par un
> autre trou."
> He also notes: "La même theorie est exposee par
Proclus (in Anal. sacr.,
> 2, pp. 97 sqq., 137, 173 Pitra), qui voudrait voir les
> attentifs au moment de Ia *spora*, pour capter les
âmes de bon aloi. Cf.
> ci-dessus, pp. 22, 2 et 508.
> Hope this is of any help and good luck! I am interested
in knowing what
> make of this.
> Olivier Dufault
CNRS UPR 76
Re: [neoplatonism] City-Soul analogy
John Uebersax wrote:
what, in modern psychological terms, would the citizens of 'psychopolis' be? To call them "passions" seems inaccurate. "Complexes" might do. Perhaps good candidates would be "sub-egos" or "partial egos."
and John Dillon replied
Of course, if the Republic is really about the anatomy — and ordering — of the individual soul, as I believe it is, then the Cave Allegory really has to be about the constituents of an individual soul!
I would suggest (what John Dillon may well have meant) that the best candidates for these “constituents” would be the famous “parts of the soul” from Republic iv: the appetitive part and the ’spirited’ part. These aren’t “modern psychological terms,” but it’s not difficult to paraphrase them in modern terms: desires, pride, ‘ego,’ etc.
The soul’s “rational part” (logistikon) would correspond, of course, to the philosopher who exits the cave and returns to it with his newfound knowledge.
Something like this interpretation seems to me to be assumed throughout the Platonic tradition, but I don’t know that I could _document_ this before modern times (Hegel).
Best, Bob Wallace
More on the City-Soul analogy.
Suppose we accept that the Republic is primarily a psychological allegory, not a treatise on civil government. What then to make of the Cave Allegory?
The usual view, of course, sees the allegory's protagonist as a philosopher, who, having seen Truth, feels obliged to return to society to try to liberate others. But wouldn't it be more consistent with a psychological reading to see the other prisoners as elements of ones *own* soul, which ones 'inner philosopher' seeks to liberate or redeem?
Such an interpretation seems plausible, but I've never seen it mentioned or even hinted at. Has it any precedent in the Platonic tradition?
It's similar, incidentally, to Philo's interpretation of Moses as a saving disposition or element of the soul.
More generally, what, in modern psychological terms, would the citizens of 'psychopolis' be? To call them "passions" seems inaccurate. "Complexes" might do. Perhaps good candidates would be "sub-egos" or "partial egos."
John, I think that that is a most important insight, and I don’t actually think that I have seen it raised elsewhere. Of course, if the Republic is really about the anatomy — and orderign — of the individual soul, as I believe it is, then the Cave Allegory really has to be about the constituents of an individual soul! John
website: www.robertmwallace.com <http://www.robertmwallace.com>
blog: http.//robertmwallace.blogspot.com <http://robertmwallace.blogspot.com>
Yes, Bob. That would be my thought. Of course, Plato (that many-minded man) also has in mind Socrates’ attempts to bring his fellow-citizens to a better frame of mind, and their hostile reaction to that, but primarily the ‘re-descent into the Cave’ should relate to the concern of the now-enlightened rational part of the soul to convey that enlightenment to the two lower parts (and their resistance to that!). And I can’t say that I have seen that much discussed, oddly enough, though I may well have missed something. John