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Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer

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  • vaeringjar
    More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by Marie-Louise von Franz.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
      More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by Marie-Louise von Franz.

      My archetypes could sure use some perking up about now, so maybe something good and Jungian will wear off on me, at last.

      I just hope having all these arcane texts now doesn't end up with my going next door now and asking my neighbors if I can borrow their outside grill to concoct some molten brew of my own now...!

      Dennis Clark

      --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, George Calian <calianflorin@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Dennis and Tzvi,
      >
      > At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault, which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by Principe (concerning the right interpretation of alchemical texts), and which resembles in some points Eliade's reading.
      >
      >
      > One can see the draft here:
      >
      > http://www.academia.edu/3751526/Anthropological_Experiments_in_the_Work_of_Zosimus_of_Panopolis
      >
      > All the best,
      > Florin
      >
      >
      > Florin George Calian
      > PhD Candidate
      > Department of Philosophy
      > Central European University, Budapest
      > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >________________________________
      > > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
      > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      > >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:20 PM
      > >Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 
      > >Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If only I knew Arabic!
      > >
      > >Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.
      > >
      > >I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus' reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall that.
      > >
      > >But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.
      > >
      > >Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for putting me onto that too.
      > >
      > >Dennis
      > >
      > >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
      > >> Tzvi
      > >> ----- Original Message -----
      > >> From: vaeringjar
      > >> Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
      > >> To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
      > >>
      > >> --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
      > >> >
      > >> > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and >those fumes can muddle the brain.
      > >>
      > >> Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
      > >>
      > >> >
      > >> > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien, H.D. Saffrey, and others.
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >> Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent, for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
      > >>
      > >> I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
      > >>
      > >> > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts? >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >> Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
      > >>
      > >> At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
      > >>
      > >> I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything, aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
      > >>
      > >> Best,
      > >> Dennis
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ted Hand
      you could also try this http://academia.edu/252200/Some_Modern_Controversies_on_the_Historiography_of_Alchemy ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
        you could also try this
        http://academia.edu/252200/Some_Modern_Controversies_on_the_Historiography_of_Alchemy


        On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of
        > the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by
        > Marie-Louise von Franz.
        >
        > My archetypes could sure use some perking up about now, so maybe something
        > good and Jungian will wear off on me, at last.
        >
        > I just hope having all these arcane texts now doesn't end up with my going
        > next door now and asking my neighbors if I can borrow their outside grill
        > to concoct some molten brew of my own now...!
        >
        > Dennis Clark
        >
        >
        > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, George Calian <calianflorin@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Dennis and Tzvi,
        > >
        > > At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault,
        > which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by
        > Principe (concerning the right interpretation of alchemical texts), and
        > which resembles in some points Eliade's reading.
        > >
        > >
        > > One can see the draft here:
        > >
        > >
        > http://www.academia.edu/3751526/Anthropological_Experiments_in_the_Work_of_Zosimus_of_Panopolis
        > >
        > > All the best,
        > > Florin
        > >
        > >
        > > Florin George Calian
        > > PhD Candidate
        > > Department of Philosophy
        > > Central European University, Budapest
        > > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
        > > �
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >________________________________
        > > > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
        >
        > > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:20 PM
        > > >Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >�
        > > >Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most
        > interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the
        > thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If
        > only I knew Arabic!
        > > >
        > > >Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular
        > Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda
        > entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.
        > > >
        > > >I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus'
        > reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I
        > am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall
        > that.
        > > >
        > > >But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now
        > finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common
        > ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.
        > > >
        > > >Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for
        > putting me onto that too.
        > > >
        > > >Dennis
        > > >
        > > >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@>
        > wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and
        > immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
        > > >> Tzvi
        > > >> ----- Original Message -----
        > > >> From: vaeringjar
        > > >> Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
        > > >> To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
        > > >> Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
        > > >>
        > > >> --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann"
        > <langermann@> wrote:
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and
        > >those fumes can muddle the brain.
        > > >>
        > > >> Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
        > > >>
        > > >> >
        > > >> > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue
        > >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I
        > >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from
        > outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly
        > received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such
        > is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey
        > article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose
        > work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much
        > with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses
        > Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours
        > >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien,
        > H.D. Saffrey, and others.
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >> Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent,
        > for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
        > > >>
        > > >> I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it
        > so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely
        > would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
        > > >>
        > > >> > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts?
        > >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new
        > finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >> Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must
        > have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but
        > these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now
        > that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page
        > numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
        > > >>
        > > >> At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman
        > alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute
        > from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been
        > established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some
        > time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und
        > Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote
        > Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
        > > >>
        > > >> I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything,
        > aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact
        > Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well
        > done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the
        > subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
        > > >>
        > > >> Best,
        > > >> Dennis
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tzvi Langermann
        The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
          The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ted Hand
          Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
          To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Florin Calian
          Dear Tzvi, Thank you for referring so positively to my article. Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it. I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
            Dear Tzvi,

            Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
            Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
            I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning the
            practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.

            Regards,
            Florin
            n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days, since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too much confusion.

            ____________________________
            Florin George Calian
            PhD Candidate
            Department
            of Philosophy
            Central European University, Budapest
            http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009



            >________________________________
            > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@...>
            >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
            >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
            >
            >
            >

            >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: Ted Hand
            >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
            >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vaeringjar
            Thanks, everyone - more goodies to read and I am on vacation all next week. :) Dennis Clark
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
              Thanks, everyone - more goodies to read and I am on vacation all next week. :)

              Dennis Clark

              --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Florin Calian <calianflorin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Tzvi,
              >
              > Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
              > Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
              > I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning the
              > practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Florin
              > n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days, since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too much confusion.
              >
              > ____________________________
              > Florin George Calian
              > PhD Candidate
              > Department
              > of Philosophy
              > Central European University, Budapest
              > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
              >
              >
              >
              > >________________________________
              > > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@...>
              > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
              > >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
              > >----- Original Message -----
              > >From: Ted Hand
              > >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
              > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
              > >
              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Ted Hand
              While we re on the topic of alchemy I d like to highlight the research of two other promising young scholars that I m very excited about: Jenny Rampling, who
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
                While we're on the topic of alchemy I'd like to highlight the
                research of two other promising young scholars that I'm very
                excited about: Jenny Rampling, who is working on the Ripley
                scrolls, and Peter Forshaw, who is working on Khunrath.

                http://alchemicaldiagrams.blogspot.com/2011/11/jenny-rampling-podcast-on-alchemy-and.html
                http://cambridge.academia.edu/JenniferRampling

                http://uva.academia.edu/PeterForshaw
                http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcxLzXeJ4FPi09-rpQGcscylHEhxEA8ws

                Finally, Wouter Hanegraaff has some excellent remarks on the
                historiographical
                problems of ["spiritual"?] alchemy in his recent "Esotericism and the
                Academy"

                best,
                Ted


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Dillon
                ... Dear Florin, That is a nice recognition of your article. It is an interesting chat-group, in general! JMD [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Tzvi,
                  >
                  > Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
                  > Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
                  > I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the
                  > article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning
                  > the
                  > practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp
                  > from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper
                  > I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without
                  > the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be
                  > seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Florin
                  > n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself
                  > referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days,
                  > since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too
                  > much confusion.
                  >
                  > ____________________________
                  > Florin George Calian
                  > PhD Candidate
                  > Department
                  > of Philosophy
                  > Central European University, Budapest
                  > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
                  >
                  >> >________________________________
                  >> > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@... <mailto:langermann%40gmx.com> >
                  >> >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
                  >> >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > 
                  >> >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin
                  >> George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my
                  >> article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's
                  >> encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
                  >> >----- Original Message -----
                  >> >From: Ted Hand
                  >> >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
                  >> >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                  >> >
                  >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Dear Florin, That is a nice recognition of your article. It is an
                  interesting chat-group, in general! JMD


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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