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Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer

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  • vaeringjar
    Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the thesis. I
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 20, 2013
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      Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If only I knew Arabic!

      Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.

      I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus' reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall that.

      But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.

      Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for putting me onto that too.

      Dennis

      --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
      > Tzvi
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: vaeringjar
      > Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
      > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
      >
      > --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and >those fumes can muddle the brain.
      >
      > Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
      >
      > >
      > > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien, H.D. Saffrey, and others.
      > >
      >
      > Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent, for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
      >
      > I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
      >
      > > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts? >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
      > >
      >
      > Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
      >
      > At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
      >
      > I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything, aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
      >
      > Best,
      > Dennis
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • vaeringjar
      Ah, so there is good argument pro for Olympiodorus. The Christians don t seem to have been at all adverse from the start to alchemy, so perhaps he found it a
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 20, 2013
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        Ah, so there is good argument pro for Olympiodorus.

        The Christians don't seem to have been at all adverse from the start to alchemy, so perhaps he found it a 'safe' outlet, or perhaps it was just so much a part of the milieu at that point in Alexandria it was hard to avoid?

        Thanks, Mike - I will look for Martelli's work too.

        My comment on Porphyry was a shot in the dark - most curious to see this later tradition about him. Is the Kraus work "Jābir ibn Hayyān: Jabir et la science grecque"? I recall Principe referring to it also, if I am correct.

        Best,
        Dennis

        --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Goya" <goya@...> wrote:
        >
        > I second Tzvi's recommendation of the work of Cristina Viano, who has
        > argued for the identification of Olympiodorus the alchemist and the
        > philosopher.
        >
        > As far as Syriac is concerned, the person to contact would be be Matteo
        > Martelli, who has done a superb edition of the alchemical tacts of the
        > Pseudo-Democritus, then learned Syriac in order to study the Syriac
        > alchemical tradition..
        >
        > In his Jabbir ibn Hayyan, Paul Kraus has interesting remarks on Porphyry
        > as an alchemist in the Arabic tradition. In particular, a treatise on the
        > creation of artificial life is ascribed to him, which Kraus suggets may
        > have been inspired by the *On statues*.
        >
        > Best, Mike
        >
        >
      • John Uebersax
        Chris Jordan (U. of Birmingham, Institute of Textual Scholarship) has set up a new peer review networking website, enabling scholars to trade favors -- X
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 20, 2013
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          Chris Jordan (U. of Birmingham, Institute of Textual Scholarship) has set up a new peer review networking website, enabling scholars to trade favors -- X reviews Y's work (say an article or chapter) and Y reciprocates, all voluntary and aimed at improving quality.


          Chris asked me to spread the word, which I'm happy to do because it seems like a great way to network, improve writing, and get feedback before publishing. If you're interested, there's a simple sign-up procedure at the website:  http://chapterswap.com

          It's only two weeks old and there might be a bug or two with the interface, but I'm eager to give it a try myself.

          John Uebersax

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Goya
          ... M.C. : Yes, that s the one. Next year s ISNS is in Lisbon. Why don t you organize a session on Zosimus and/or alchemy in general, and invite Viano and
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 21, 2013
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            > Ah, so there is good argument pro for Olympiodorus.
            >
            > The Christians don't seem to have been at all adverse from the start to
            > alchemy, so perhaps he found it a 'safe' outlet, or perhaps it was just so
            > much a part of the milieu at that point in Alexandria it was hard to
            > avoid?
            >
            > Thanks, Mike - I will look for Martelli's work too.
            >
            > My comment on Porphyry was a shot in the dark - most curious to see this
            > later tradition about him. Is the Kraus work "Jābir ibn Hayyān:
            > Jabir et la science grecque"? I recall Principe referring to it also, if I
            > am correct.

            M.C. : Yes, that's the one.

            Next year's ISNS is in Lisbon. Why don't you organize a session on Zosimus
            and/or alchemy in general, and invite Viano and Martelli?

            Cheers, Mike

            >
            > Best,
            > Dennis
            >
            > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Goya" <goya@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> I second Tzvi's recommendation of the work of Cristina Viano, who has
            >> argued for the identification of Olympiodorus the alchemist and the
            >> philosopher.
            >>
            >> As far as Syriac is concerned, the person to contact would be be Matteo
            >> Martelli, who has done a superb edition of the alchemical tacts of the
            >> Pseudo-Democritus, then learned Syriac in order to study the Syriac
            >> alchemical tradition..
            >>
            >> In his Jabbir ibn Hayyan, Paul Kraus has interesting remarks on Porphyry
            >> as an alchemist in the Arabic tradition. In particular, a treatise on
            >> the
            >> creation of artificial life is ascribed to him, which Kraus suggets may
            >> have been inspired by the *On statues*.
            >>
            >> Best, Mike
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >


            Michael Chase
            CNRS UPR 76
            Paris-Villejuif
            France
          • George Calian
            Dear Dennis and Tzvi, At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault, which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 22, 2013
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              Dear Dennis and Tzvi,

              At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault, which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by Principe (concerning the right interpretation of alchemical texts), and which resembles in some points Eliade's reading.


              One can see the draft here:

              http://www.academia.edu/3751526/Anthropological_Experiments_in_the_Work_of_Zosimus_of_Panopolis

              All the best,
              Florin


              Florin George Calian
              PhD Candidate
              Department of Philosophy
              Central European University, Budapest
              http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
               




              >________________________________
              > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
              >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:20 PM
              >Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
              >
              >
              >

              >Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If only I knew Arabic!
              >
              >Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.
              >
              >I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus' reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall that.
              >
              >But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.
              >
              >Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for putting me onto that too.
              >
              >Dennis
              >
              >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
              >> Tzvi
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: vaeringjar
              >> Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
              >> To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
              >>
              >> --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and >those fumes can muddle the brain.
              >>
              >> Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
              >>
              >> >
              >> > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien, H.D. Saffrey, and others.
              >> >
              >>
              >> Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent, for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
              >>
              >> I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
              >>
              >> > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts? >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
              >> >
              >>
              >> Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
              >>
              >> At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
              >>
              >> I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything, aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
              >>
              >> Best,
              >> Dennis
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vaeringjar
              Oh, that sounds nice, Lisbon, Mike. And a great idea, too - it s a matter for me personally of not always being able to fly. But I am getting healthier again,
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 23, 2013
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                Oh, that sounds nice, Lisbon, Mike. And a great idea, too - it's a matter for me personally of not always being able to fly. But I am getting healthier again, so it would be a great goal too.

                I guess the alternation between Europe and America is not something we try to do now - I remember someone saying it was getting harder to get anyone to set it up here in the US. We should do it in Vancouver, Mike! But it's so far away for most, unlike the east coast.

                Or Seattle, I guess.

                Dennis Clark

                --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Goya" <goya@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > Ah, so there is good argument pro for Olympiodorus.
                > >
                > > The Christians don't seem to have been at all adverse from the start to
                > > alchemy, so perhaps he found it a 'safe' outlet, or perhaps it was just so
                > > much a part of the milieu at that point in Alexandria it was hard to
                > > avoid?
                > >
                > > Thanks, Mike - I will look for Martelli's work too.
                > >
                > > My comment on Porphyry was a shot in the dark - most curious to see this
                > > later tradition about him. Is the Kraus work "Jābir ibn Hayyān:
                > > Jabir et la science grecque"? I recall Principe referring to it also, if I
                > > am correct.
                >
                > M.C. : Yes, that's the one.
                >
                > Next year's ISNS is in Lisbon. Why don't you organize a session on Zosimus
                > and/or alchemy in general, and invite Viano and Martelli?
                >
                > Cheers, Mike
                >
                > >
                > > Best,
                > > Dennis
                > >
                > > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Goya" <goya@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> I second Tzvi's recommendation of the work of Cristina Viano, who has
                > >> argued for the identification of Olympiodorus the alchemist and the
                > >> philosopher.
                > >>
                > >> As far as Syriac is concerned, the person to contact would be be Matteo
                > >> Martelli, who has done a superb edition of the alchemical tacts of the
                > >> Pseudo-Democritus, then learned Syriac in order to study the Syriac
                > >> alchemical tradition..
                > >>
                > >> In his Jabbir ibn Hayyan, Paul Kraus has interesting remarks on Porphyry
                > >> as an alchemist in the Arabic tradition. In particular, a treatise on
                > >> the
                > >> creation of artificial life is ascribed to him, which Kraus suggets may
                > >> have been inspired by the *On statues*.
                > >>
                > >> Best, Mike
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > Michael Chase
                > CNRS UPR 76
                > Paris-Villejuif
                > France
                >
              • vaeringjar
                More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by Marie-Louise von Franz.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by Marie-Louise von Franz.

                  My archetypes could sure use some perking up about now, so maybe something good and Jungian will wear off on me, at last.

                  I just hope having all these arcane texts now doesn't end up with my going next door now and asking my neighbors if I can borrow their outside grill to concoct some molten brew of my own now...!

                  Dennis Clark

                  --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, George Calian <calianflorin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Dennis and Tzvi,
                  >
                  > At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault, which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by Principe (concerning the right interpretation of alchemical texts), and which resembles in some points Eliade's reading.
                  >
                  >
                  > One can see the draft here:
                  >
                  > http://www.academia.edu/3751526/Anthropological_Experiments_in_the_Work_of_Zosimus_of_Panopolis
                  >
                  > All the best,
                  > Florin
                  >
                  >
                  > Florin George Calian
                  > PhD Candidate
                  > Department of Philosophy
                  > Central European University, Budapest
                  > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >________________________________
                  > > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
                  > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:20 PM
                  > >Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If only I knew Arabic!
                  > >
                  > >Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.
                  > >
                  > >I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus' reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall that.
                  > >
                  > >But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.
                  > >
                  > >Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for putting me onto that too.
                  > >
                  > >Dennis
                  > >
                  > >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
                  > >> Tzvi
                  > >> ----- Original Message -----
                  > >> From: vaeringjar
                  > >> Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
                  > >> To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and >those fumes can muddle the brain.
                  > >>
                  > >> Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
                  > >>
                  > >> >
                  > >> > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien, H.D. Saffrey, and others.
                  > >> >
                  > >>
                  > >> Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent, for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
                  > >>
                  > >> I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
                  > >>
                  > >> > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts? >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
                  > >> >
                  > >>
                  > >> Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
                  > >>
                  > >> At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
                  > >>
                  > >> I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything, aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
                  > >>
                  > >> Best,
                  > >> Dennis
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Ted Hand
                  you could also try this http://academia.edu/252200/Some_Modern_Controversies_on_the_Historiography_of_Alchemy ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
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                    you could also try this
                    http://academia.edu/252200/Some_Modern_Controversies_on_the_Historiography_of_Alchemy


                    On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > More alchemical reading! Thanks. Yesterday I got the English edition of
                    > the so called Aurora Consurgens, edited with the Latin texts by
                    > Marie-Louise von Franz.
                    >
                    > My archetypes could sure use some perking up about now, so maybe something
                    > good and Jungian will wear off on me, at last.
                    >
                    > I just hope having all these arcane texts now doesn't end up with my going
                    > next door now and asking my neighbors if I can borrow their outside grill
                    > to concoct some molten brew of my own now...!
                    >
                    > Dennis Clark
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, George Calian <calianflorin@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Dennis and Tzvi,
                    > >
                    > > At Cardiff there wasactually a paper on Zosimus by Olivier Dufault,
                    > which looks as going in a different direction than that proposed by
                    > Principe (concerning the right interpretation of alchemical texts), and
                    > which resembles in some points Eliade's reading.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > One can see the draft here:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > http://www.academia.edu/3751526/Anthropological_Experiments_in_the_Work_of_Zosimus_of_Panopolis
                    > >
                    > > All the best,
                    > > Florin
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Florin George Calian
                    > > PhD Candidate
                    > > Department of Philosophy
                    > > Central European University, Budapest
                    > > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
                    > > �
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >________________________________
                    > > > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
                    >
                    > > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:20 PM
                    > > >Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >�
                    > > >Tzvi, thank you - I just downloaded the thesis and dipped into it. Most
                    > interesting, and I had no idea he has translated all these texts within the
                    > thesis. I will read them tonight, see what all is to be found there. If
                    > only I knew Arabic!
                    > > >
                    > > >Not clear there is a direct link between Zosimus and any particular
                    > Platonist, to me, as of yet, but I do see in Hallum's thesis the Souda
                    > entry, for what it's worth, that Zosimus wrote a Life of Plato. Curious.
                    > > >
                    > > >I still need to chase down among the Mithraic scholarship Zosimus'
                    > reference to Mithras. I rather think it holds some importance, but maybe I
                    > am just guessing or someone has already rooted it out. I just don't recall
                    > that.
                    > > >
                    > > >But I have been studying the so called Mithras Liturgy recently, now
                    > finally in a new edition by Betz, and I wonder if there is not some common
                    > ground here...that bears looking at, I do think now.
                    > > >
                    > > >Excellent that the British Library has such a service, thanks for
                    > putting me onto that too.
                    > > >
                    > > >Dennis
                    > > >
                    > > >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Thanks a lot, Dennis! Hallum's thesis is available for free and
                    > immediate download at the wonderful Ethos site at the British Library.
                    > > >> Tzvi
                    > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                    > > >> From: vaeringjar
                    > > >> Sent: 06/20/13 08:56 AM
                    > > >> To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >> Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                    > > >>
                    > > >> --- In neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann"
                    > <langermann@> wrote:
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> > Yes, the alchemists did not worry about proper ventilation, and
                    > >those fumes can muddle the brain.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Yes! Amazon.com is well fumigated with the latest...fumes.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> > In a short piece on alchemy that appeared in the most recent issue
                    > >of Aleph (on Delmedigo, preprint posted on my academia.edu site) I
                    > >point out that scholars do not always welcome the input of people >from
                    > outside; but in the case of alchemy, specialists have in >general warmly
                    > received the book of Mircea Eliade, as Eliade is >happy to point out. Such
                    > is the need for a new perspective. I refer >also to an excellent survey
                    > article on the historiography of >alchemy, put on line by someone whose
                    > work is not otherwise known to >me. But these things will not help much
                    > with regards to the >neoplatonists; for that aspect see L'Alchimie et ses
                    > Racines >philosophiques, edited by Cristina Viano (and reviewed by yours
                    > >truly for BMCR), which has contributionts by Luc Brisson, Denis >O'Brien,
                    > H.D. Saffrey, and others.
                    > > >> >
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Yes, I am reading Eliade's Forge and the Crucible now - excellent,
                    > for what he is trying to accomplish there. As usual, I would say.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> I do have the Racines collection, though I read only one piece in it
                    > so far - and thanks, I will look up your review now too. And I definitely
                    > would like to read your article too, very timely, thanks!
                    > > >>
                    > > >> > Dennis, do you have specific information on new Syriac manuscripts?
                    > >Some Syriac texts were published by Berthelot, but I haven't heard >of new
                    > finds (which doesn't mean all that much).
                    > > >> >
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Yes, the reference to the recently discovered Arabic texts (I must
                    > have gotten confused there - there are extant Syriac texts of Zosimus, but
                    > these "new" ones must be Arabic) is in fact in Principe's book, and now
                    > that I look at it again on my Kindle, I realize they don't preserve page
                    > numbers on the Kindle edition! Good grief.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> At any rate, it's in footnote 17 to the chapter on Greco-Roman
                    > alchemy, and he is referring to a recent PhD from the Warburg Institute
                    > from 2008, by Benjamin Hallum, in which Principe claims the texts have been
                    > established as by Zosimus, though their existence has been known for some
                    > time - and here he cites Manfred Ullmann, Die Natur- und
                    > Geheimwissenschaften im Islam (Brill, 1972), pp.160-64. In this footnote
                    > Principe claims also "these will be edited and published in due course."
                    > > >>
                    > > >> I Googled Benjamin Hallum and did not really come up with anything,
                    > aside from a couple of hits at Warbarg's site. Perhaps you could contact
                    > Principe himself? I think he is at John Hopkins. His book is really well
                    > done, and I love his humor. I think he has a very balanced approach to the
                    > subject of alchemy, but he is a scientist himself.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Best,
                    > > >> Dennis
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >>
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tzvi Langermann
                    The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 26, 2013
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                      The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ted Hand
                      Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
                      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Florin Calian
                      Dear Tzvi, Thank you for referring so positively to my article. Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it. I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
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                        Dear Tzvi,

                        Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
                        Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
                        I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning the
                        practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.

                        Regards,
                        Florin
                        n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days, since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too much confusion.

                        ____________________________
                        Florin George Calian
                        PhD Candidate
                        Department
                        of Philosophy
                        Central European University, Budapest
                        http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009



                        >________________________________
                        > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@...>
                        >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                        >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
                        >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
                        >----- Original Message -----
                        >From: Ted Hand
                        >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
                        >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • vaeringjar
                        Thanks, everyone - more goodies to read and I am on vacation all next week. :) Dennis Clark
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
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                          Thanks, everyone - more goodies to read and I am on vacation all next week. :)

                          Dennis Clark

                          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Florin Calian <calianflorin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Tzvi,
                          >
                          > Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
                          > Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
                          > I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning the
                          > practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Florin
                          > n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days, since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too much confusion.
                          >
                          > ____________________________
                          > Florin George Calian
                          > PhD Candidate
                          > Department
                          > of Philosophy
                          > Central European University, Budapest
                          > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >________________________________
                          > > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@...>
                          > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
                          > >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
                          > >----- Original Message -----
                          > >From: Ted Hand
                          > >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
                          > >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                          > >
                          > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Ted Hand
                          While we re on the topic of alchemy I d like to highlight the research of two other promising young scholars that I m very excited about: Jenny Rampling, who
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 27, 2013
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                            While we're on the topic of alchemy I'd like to highlight the
                            research of two other promising young scholars that I'm very
                            excited about: Jenny Rampling, who is working on the Ripley
                            scrolls, and Peter Forshaw, who is working on Khunrath.

                            http://alchemicaldiagrams.blogspot.com/2011/11/jenny-rampling-podcast-on-alchemy-and.html
                            http://cambridge.academia.edu/JenniferRampling

                            http://uva.academia.edu/PeterForshaw
                            http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcxLzXeJ4FPi09-rpQGcscylHEhxEA8ws

                            Finally, Wouter Hanegraaff has some excellent remarks on the
                            historiographical
                            problems of ["spiritual"?] alchemy in his recent "Esotericism and the
                            Academy"

                            best,
                            Ted


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Dillon
                            ... Dear Florin, That is a nice recognition of your article. It is an interesting chat-group, in general! JMD [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Tzvi,
                              >
                              > Thank you for referring so positively to my article.
                              > Thanks also to Ted Hand for posting it.
                              > I think I was too harsh with Principe and Newman, at the time when I wrote the
                              > article. Otherwise, I think that both of them did and do a good job concerning
                              > the
                              > practical side of alchemy. My main concern was to see how much one can grasp
                              > from alchemical texts (as Aurora Consurgens, or those of Zosimus; in my paper
                              > I had as case study Early Modern texts, which can not be understood without
                              > the background of Renaissance Neoplatonism) with their paradigms, which can be
                              > seen as an extreme reaction to Eliade and Jung.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Florin
                              > n.b. I advertised Olivier's paper on Zosimus at Cardiff before he himself
                              > referred to it in the list, but somehow my e-mail was pending for a few days,
                              > since I just registered to the e-mail list. I hope that I did not create too
                              > much confusion.
                              >
                              > ____________________________
                              > Florin George Calian
                              > PhD Candidate
                              > Department
                              > of Philosophy
                              > Central European University, Budapest
                              > http://www.ceu.hu/node/21009
                              >
                              >> >________________________________
                              >> > From: Tzvi Langermann <langermann@... <mailto:langermann%40gmx.com> >
                              >> >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:28 PM
                              >> >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > 
                              >> >The paper referred to by Ted Hand is in fact the paper written by Florin
                              >> George and mentioned in his posting, and it is the paper that I cite in my
                              >> article on Delmedigo and referred to anonymously in my posting. It's
                              >> encouraging to see such high quality studies published by graduate students!
                              >> >----- Original Message -----
                              >> >From: Ted Hand
                              >> >Sent: 06/26/13 10:22 PM
                              >> >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> >Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: conference at Cardiff, alchemy, prayer
                              >> >
                              >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              Dear Florin, That is a nice recognition of your article. It is an
                              interesting chat-group, in general! JMD


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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