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intelligible triads in Proclus

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  • Marco Bormann
    Hi all, I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus Theology of Plato, trying to puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange since
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 10, 2013
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      Hi all,


      I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure when he states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is applicable to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
      1st bound, unbound, being
      2nd hyparxis, power, life
      But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been looking in vain.
      Does anyone have any hint for me?

      Thanks,
      Marco

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • david.gallagher70
      Marco, Our reading of the relevant chapters in PT at Wisdom s Goldenrod was prompted by Meade s book, Orpheus. We discerned a matrix of triads within the
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 10, 2013
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        Marco,

        Our reading of the relevant chapters in PT at Wisdom's Goldenrod was
        prompted by Meade's book, Orpheus. We discerned a 'matrix' of triads within the
        first 'intelligible' (noetic) triad; the ensuing triads
        'intelligible/intellectual' (noetic/noeric) and 'intellectual' (noeric). Our study resulted
        in a diagram depicting our understanding of Proclus' explanation of the
        hierarchy of Orphic gods within Intellect. I can send you a copy postal mail
        if you're disposed to send me your delivery address off-list. The diagram
        also accounts for Absolute Soul in Nous.

        Regarding the intelligible gods (the highest level in Proclus' hierarchy),
        we adduced the following

        1st: Hyparxis/Bound/Father; one being; to be or abide; aether, chaos, egg.

        2nd: Power/Infinity/Mother; life as power, to live; cosmic egg; triple
        deity.
        3rd: Mind/Mixed/Son; life as intelligence; to energize intellectually;
        Protogonus (Phanes, Ericapeous, Metis).

        These can then be splayed out as:
        Hyparxis, Power, Mind
        Bound, Infinity, Mixed
        Father, Mother, Son
        or
        Being, Life, Intellect

        Hoping this might be helpful,
        David





        In a message dated 6/10/2013 10:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        marcobormann@... writes:





        Hi all,

        I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to
        puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange
        since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure when he
        states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is applicable
        to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
        1st bound, unbound, being
        2nd hyparxis, power, life
        But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to
        be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been
        looking in vain.
        Does anyone have any hint for me?

        Thanks,
        Marco

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marco Bormann
        Thanks a lot David, by the way I think I already got your diagram a couple of months ago. But my question to your answer is, how can you come up with 
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 11, 2013
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          Thanks a lot David,

          by the way I think I already got your diagram a couple of months ago.

          But my question to your answer is, how can you come up with 

          Hyparxis/Bound/Father

          as first triad. Proklos here seems to be quite clear, I quote from Taylors translation, III, 12:
          "SUCH therefore, is the first triad of intelligibles, according to Socrates
          in the Philebus, viz. bound, infinite, and that which is mixed from these."
          This mixed he explains to being.
          Ok, I can see that he here only refers to the Philebus and the goes on to discuss a lot of other dialogs, but at least concerning the first triad he seems to be pretty consistent.
          But maybe I am getting something wrong here,

          Regards,
          Marco



          >________________________________
          > De : "dgallagher@..." <dgallagher@...>
          >À : neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
          >Envoyé le : Lundi 10 juin 2013 19h33
          >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] intelligible triads in Proclus
          >
          >
          >

          >Marco,
          >
          >Our reading of the relevant chapters in PT at Wisdom's Goldenrod was
          >prompted by Meade's book, Orpheus. We discerned a 'matrix' of triads within the
          >first 'intelligible' (noetic) triad; the ensuing triads
          >'intelligible/intellectual' (noetic/noeric) and 'intellectual' (noeric). Our study resulted
          >in a diagram depicting our understanding of Proclus' explanation of the
          >hierarchy of Orphic gods within Intellect. I can send you a copy postal mail
          >if you're disposed to send me your delivery address off-list. The diagram
          >also accounts for Absolute Soul in Nous.
          >
          >Regarding the intelligible gods (the highest level in Proclus' hierarchy),
          >we adduced the following
          >
          >1st: Hyparxis/Bound/Father; one being; to be or abide; aether, chaos, egg.
          >
          >2nd: Power/Infinity/Mother; life as power, to live; cosmic egg; triple
          >deity.
          >3rd: Mind/Mixed/Son; life as intelligence; to energize intellectually;
          >Protogonus (Phanes, Ericapeous, Metis).
          >
          >These can then be splayed out as:
          >Hyparxis, Power, Mind
          >Bound, Infinity, Mixed
          >Father, Mother, Son
          >or
          >Being, Life, Intellect
          >
          >Hoping this might be helpful,
          >David
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >In a message dated 6/10/2013 10:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          >marcobormann@... writes:
          >
          >
          >Hi all,
          >
          >I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to
          >puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange
          >since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure when he
          >states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is applicable
          >to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
          >1st bound, unbound, being
          >2nd hyparxis, power, life
          >But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to
          >be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been
          >looking in vain.
          >Does anyone have any hint for me?
          >
          >Thanks,
          >Marco
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jensav55
          ... The three moments of the third intelligible triad are 1) limit, henad, and existence [hyparxis] ; 2) the unlimited and power ; and 3) the mixed,
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 11, 2013
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            --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure when he states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is applicable to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
            > 1st bound, unbound, being
            > 2nd hyparxis, power, life
            > But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been looking in vain.
            > Does anyone have any hint for me?
            >

            The three moments of the third intelligible triad are 1) "limit, henad, and existence [hyparxis]"; 2) "the unlimited and power"; and 3) "the mixed, substance [ousia], life [zoê] and intelligible intellect [nous noêtos]" (Theol. Plat. III 14. 51. 6-7).

            If you are making a close study of the intelligible triads, you might be interested in a series of articles I have written on the subject which have appeared in Méthexis, the third and final of which, on the third intelligible triad and the intellective Gods, will be appearing in the forthcoming issue of the journal (vol. 25).

            The preceding articles, concerning the first and second triads, appeared in vols. 21 and 23 respectively, and are also available on my site: http://henadology.wordpress.com/philosophy/.

            I hope that this has been helpful.


            Edward Butler
            http://henadology.wordpress.com/
          • david.gallagher70
            Good question, Marco. Confusion is readily available owing to what we discerned as a matrix of triads where each term of the three levels of triads itself is
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 11, 2013
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              Good question, Marco.

              Confusion is readily available owing to what we discerned as a matrix of
              triads where each 'term' of the three levels of triads itself is triadic.
              Thus Hyparxis/Bound/Father (also aether/chaos/egg) is the triad of the first
              'term' in the intelligible (noetic) triad. Yes, bound, infinite, mixed are
              the three 'terms' of the first (intelligible/noetic) triad per our
              reading/understanding from the Taylor translation.

              Ensuing upon the first (noetic) there ensues the second (noetic-noeric) and
              a third (noeric). It gets yet more complicated at the third level where
              the hebdomad is introduced, and that is critical to the understanding when
              you get to the Commentary on Timaeus. We're working through the latter at
              the moment, planning to return to PT for the chapters on psyche in due
              course.

              I suspect the diagram you already have is not the one I referred to in this
              instance. Is the one you have circular? If so, that's not it, although
              one-quarter the circular figure correlates with this other one I offered to
              send. It maps out that one-quarter in more detail. Wish we could embed
              diagrams in posts on this list-serve.

              It might help to have a look at G.R.H, Mead's book, Orpheus.
              http://archive.org/details/orpheus00meadgoog
              He lays out the Orphic Pantheon with a fair measure of clarity, based
              largely on Proclus, PT. The material relevant to your question is clearly
              identified by section titles within chapters. Caveat: there are significant
              lacunae in the Internet Archive read-online 'edition'. Best to download the
              entire PDF (3.1m) and pursue via that format. We went to Proclus after
              consulting Mead, and feel that was good prep.

              David


              In a message dated 6/11/2013 4:09:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              marcobormann@... writes:




              Thanks a lot David,

              by the way I think I already got your diagram a couple of months ago.

              But my question to your answer is, how can you come up with

              Hyparxis/Bound/Father

              as first triad. Proklos here seems to be quite clear, I quote from Taylors
              translation, III, 12:
              "SUCH therefore, is the first triad of intelligibles, according to Socrates
              in the Philebus, viz. bound, infinite, and that which is mixed from these."
              This mixed he explains to being.
              Ok, I can see that he here only refers to the Philebus and the goes on to
              discuss a lot of other dialogs, but at least concerning the first triad he
              seems to be pretty consistent.
              But maybe I am getting something wrong here,

              Regards,
              Marco

              >________________________________
              > De : "_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) "
              <_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) >
              >À : _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)

              >Envoyé le : Lundi 10 juin 2013 19h33
              >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] intelligible triads in Proclus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Marco,
              >
              >Our reading of the relevant chapters in PT at Wisdom's Goldenrod was
              >prompted by Meade's book, Orpheus. We discerned a 'matrix' of triads
              within the
              >first 'intelligible' (noetic) triad; the ensuing triads
              >'intelligible/intellectual' (noetic/noeric) and 'intellectual' (noeric).
              Our study resulted
              >in a diagram depicting our understanding of Proclus' explanation of the
              >hierarchy of Orphic gods within Intellect. I can send you a copy postal
              mail
              >if you're disposed to send me your delivery address off-list. The diagram
              >also accounts for Absolute Soul in Nous.
              >
              >Regarding the intelligible gods (the highest level in Proclus'
              hierarchy),
              >we adduced the following
              >
              >1st: Hyparxis/Bound/Father; one being; to be or abide; aether, chaos,
              egg.
              >
              >2nd: Power/Infinity/Mother; life as power, to live; cosmic egg; triple
              >deity.
              >3rd: Mind/Mixed/Son; life as intelligence; to energize intellectually;
              >Protogonus (Phanes, Ericapeous, Metis).
              >
              >These can then be splayed out as:
              >Hyparxis, Power, Mind
              >Bound, Infinity, Mixed
              >Father, Mother, Son
              >or
              >Being, Life, Intellect
              >
              >Hoping this might be helpful,
              >David
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >In a message dated 6/10/2013 10:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              >_marcobormann@..._ (mailto:marcobormann@...) writes:
              >
              >
              >Hi all,
              >
              >I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to
              >puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite
              strange
              >since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure
              when he
              >states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is
              applicable
              >to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
              >1st bound, unbound, being
              >2nd hyparxis, power, life
              >But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to
              >be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been
              >looking in vain.
              >Does anyone have any hint for me?
              >
              >Thanks,
              >Marco
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Marco Bormann
              Thanks a lot Edward, I already have consulted your articles. I had found them via google. So I am waiting for the third one to appear. Regards, Marco ...
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 13, 2013
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                Thanks a lot Edward,

                I already have consulted your articles. I had found them via google.

                So I am waiting for the third one to appear.


                Regards,

                Marco




                >________________________________
                > De : jensav55 <epb223@...>
                >À : neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                >Envoyé le : Mardi 11 juin 2013 18h10
                >Objet : [neoplatonism] Re: intelligible triads in Proclus
                >
                >
                >

                >--- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> I am kind of stuck somewhere in Proclus' Theology of Plato, trying to puzzle together the intelligible triads. The whole things is quite strange since he states them for each dialogue separately and on is never sure when he states the actual idea from the triad and when just one that is applicable to this idea. However the first two seem to be relatively clear:
                >> 1st bound, unbound, being
                >> 2nd hyparxis, power, life
                >> But for the third things do not seem as clear. The third idea he says to be 'intellect', but for the first two ideas of this triad I have been looking in vain.
                >> Does anyone have any hint for me?
                >>
                >
                >The three moments of the third intelligible triad are 1) "limit, henad, and existence [hyparxis]"; 2) "the unlimited and power"; and 3) "the mixed, substance [ousia], life [zoê] and intelligible intellect [nous noêtos]" (Theol. Plat. III 14. 51. 6-7).
                >
                >If you are making a close study of the intelligible triads, you might be interested in a series of articles I have written on the subject which have appeared in Méthexis, the third and final of which, on the third intelligible triad and the intellective Gods, will be appearing in the forthcoming issue of the journal (vol. 25).
                >
                >The preceding articles, concerning the first and second triads, appeared in vols. 21 and 23 respectively, and are also available on my site: http://henadology.wordpress.com/philosophy/.
                >
                >I hope that this has been helpful.
                >
                >Edward Butler
                >http://henadology.wordpress.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jensav55
                ... Marco, If you contact me privately (epb223@gmail.com), I ll be more than happy to give you a pre-print PDF of the third article. Edward Butler
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 13, 2013
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                  --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks a lot Edward,
                  >
                  > I already have consulted your articles. I had found them via google.
                  >
                  > So I am waiting for the third one to appear.
                  >

                  Marco,

                  If you contact me privately (epb223@...), I'll be more than happy to give you a pre-print PDF of the third article.


                  Edward Butler
                  http://henadology.wordpress.com/
                • Georges Leroux
                  DEAR PLATONIC AND NEOPLATONIC FRIENDS, I am happy to announce the publication of the catalogue of the exhibition that I curated in the memory of Raymond
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 21, 2013
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                    DEAR PLATONIC AND NEOPLATONIC FRIENDS,

                    I am happy to announce the publication of the catalogue of the
                    exhibition that I curated in the memory of Raymond Klibansky (1905-2005). I
                    was his student in the sixties, here in Montreal.

                    His library of around 7,500 books is now part of the Library of
                    McGill. His personal archives are in Marbach (Germany), in the Deutsche
                    Literatur Archiv. A selection of 250 books and souvenirs (incuding a choice
                    of letters of Cassirer, Einstein, Rickert, and others) is presented in the
                    exhibition "Raymond Klibansky (1905-2005). La bibliothèque d'un
                    philosophe/The Library of a philosopher", which was inaugurated last
                    November and will close on August the 25th.

                    Among the treasures on view, a hitherto undescribed manuscript of
                    the translation of the Timaeus by Calcidius and a magnificent selection of
                    Proclus, Macrobius, Nicholas of Cusa. Author of Saturn and Melancholy
                    (1964), written with Erwin Panosfsky and Fritz Saxl, Klibansky also
                    collected on the theme of melancholy and the exhibition presents the first
                    editions of Robert Burton, as well as precious books and engravings by
                    Dürer.

                    Published in french, the catalogue offers a full bibliography, along
                    with photographies of many pieces presented in the exhibition. It also
                    contains several essays on the topics of Klibansky's research, the platonic
                    tradition, melancholy and modern tolerance.

                    A website put up by his wife, Dr Ethel Groffier, presents all the
                    material for those who would like to know more about this great scholar.

                    http://www.raymondklibanskywebpage.org/


                    With all best wishes,



                    DR. GEORGES LEROUX

                    EMERITUS
                    DÉPARTEMENT DE PHILOSOPHIE
                    UNIVERSITÉ DU QUÉBEC À MONTRÉAL







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Georges Leroux
                    DEAR FRIENDS As a complement to my mail of today, the official promo from the Bibliothèque Nationale, Georges Leroux Communiqué de presse Pour diffusion
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 21, 2013
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                      DEAR FRIENDS

                      As a complement to my mail of today, the official promo from the
                      Bibliothèque Nationale, Georges Leroux


                      Communiqué de presse

                      Pour diffusion immédiate
                      A Superb Catalogue Featuring the Library of Philosopher Raymond
                      Klibansky

                      Lavishly illustrated, Raymond Klibansky (1905-2005) ­ La bibliothèque d¹un
                      philosophe is the companion catalogue to the BAnQ-produced exhibition of the
                      same name. The exhibition runs at the Grande Bibliothèque until August 25,
                      2013. Helmed by philosopher Georges Leroux in collaboration with McGill
                      University¹s Rare Books and Special Collections Division, this exhibition
                      and its catalogue highlight the bibliographic treasures of the Raymond
                      Klibansky collection, one of the richest private collections in North
                      America. Georges Leroux, Jillian Tomm, Ann Marie Holland, Jens Halfwassen,
                      Jean-Philippe Uzel, Josiane Boulad-Ayoub, Désirée Park and Ethel Groffier
                      have all contributed essays to this publication which captures the essence
                      of a thinker whose intellectual, humanist and political ideals left a
                      significant mark on the 20th century. Raymond Klibansky believed in the
                      vitality of ideas and that one should contribute to the democratic debate.
                      His library exemplifies his convictions.


                      To order this catalogue and for information about payment and delivery, send
                      an e-mail to boutique@.... In Québec, the catalogue is also available
                      for purchase in bookshops and in other sales outlets of the Publications du
                      Québec network (publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca) for $47.95. Raymond
                      Klibansky (1905-2005) ­ La bibliothèque d¹un philosophe, Georges Leroux
                      (dir.), Montréal, Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec, 2013, 176
                      p. ISBN : 978-2-551-25366-1.


                      About BAnQ As the largest cultural institution in Québec and an essential
                      pillar of the knowledge society, Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du
                      Québec (BAnQ) has the mission of offering democratic access to culture and
                      knowledge. BAnQ collects, preserves, and disseminates Québec and
                      Québec-related published and archival heritage. It also provides the
                      services of a major public library. BAnQ encompasses the Grande
                      Bibliothèque, a preservation centre (Centre de conservation) and a
                      Québec-wide network of nine archives centres located in Montréal, Gatineau,
                      Rimouski, Rouyn-Noranda, Saguenay, Sept-Îles, Sherbrooke,Trois-Rivières and
                      Québec City, and a service point in Gaspé.




                      www.banq.qc.ca/a_propos_banq/salle_de_presse/nouvelles/nouvelle.html?n_id=da
                      9e3231-992e-41a8-9139-6b2931271bcc



                      Le 21/06/13 11:31, « Georges Leroux » <Leroux.Georges@...> a écrit :

                      >
                      > DEAR PLATONIC AND NEOPLATONIC FRIENDS,
                      >
                      > I am happy to announce the publication of the catalogue of the
                      > exhibition that I curated in the memory of Raymond Klibansky (1905-2005). I
                      > was his student in the sixties, here in Montreal.
                      >
                      > His library of around 7,500 books is now part of the Library of
                      > McGill. His personal archives are in Marbach (Germany), in the Deutsche
                      > Literatur Archiv. A selection of 250 books and souvenirs (incuding a choice
                      > of letters of Cassirer, Einstein, Rickert, and others) is presented in the
                      > exhibition "Raymond Klibansky (1905-2005). La bibliothèque d'un
                      > philosophe/The Library of a philosopher", which was inaugurated last
                      > November and will close on August the 25th.
                      >
                      > Among the treasures on view, a hitherto undescribed manuscript of
                      > the translation of the Timaeus by Calcidius and a magnificent selection of
                      > Proclus, Macrobius, Nicholas of Cusa. Author of Saturn and Melancholy
                      > (1964), written with Erwin Panosfsky and Fritz Saxl, Klibansky also
                      > collected on the theme of melancholy and the exhibition presents the first
                      > editions of Robert Burton, as well as precious books and engravings by
                      > Dürer.
                      >
                      > Published in french, the catalogue offers a full bibliography, along
                      > with photographies of many pieces presented in the exhibition. It also
                      > contains several essays on the topics of Klibansky's research, the platonic
                      > tradition, melancholy and modern tolerance.
                      >
                      > A website put up by his wife, Dr Ethel Groffier, presents all the
                      > material for those who would like to know more about this great scholar.
                      >
                      > http://www.raymondklibanskywebpage.org/
                      >
                      >
                      > With all best wishes,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > DR. GEORGES LEROUX
                      >
                      > EMERITUS
                      > DÉPARTEMENT DE PHILOSOPHIE
                      > UNIVERSITÉ DU QUÉBEC À MONTRÉAL
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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