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Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history

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  • Goya
    ... M.C. It s true that there are few surviving Neoplatonist accounts of the natural world, but see now Marije Martijn, Proclus on Nature, and compare
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 30, 2011
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      > In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the
      > last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is
      > some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the
      > organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
      > Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts.
      > But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled
      > biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?

      M.C. It's true that there are few surviving Neoplatonist accounts of the
      natural world, but see now Marije Martijn, Proclus on Nature, and compare
      Porphyry's Ad Gaurum, a detailed treatise on embryology


      > And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but
      > someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is
      > Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the
      > topic like Galen of example?

      M.C. Yes, almost certainly, as was the case for Gregory's
      near-contemporary Nemesius and his De Natura hominis
      . See my article on the latter in R. Goulet's Dictionnaire des Philosophes
      Antiques, vol. 4, p. 630: the sources suggested for both Gregory and
      Nemesius include Posidonius and Porphyry's lost commentary on the Timaeus.

      HTH, MIke




      >
      > Thanks a lot
      > Marco
      >
      >


      Michael Chase
      CNRS UPR 76
      Paris-Villejuif
      France
    • Marco Bormann
      of course you have such permisson, Thomas thanks ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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        of course you have such permisson, Thomas
        thanks


        >________________________________
        > De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
        >À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
        >Envoyé le : Mercredi 30 Novembre 2011 22h10
        >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
        >
        >
        >

        >
        >With your permission, I can forward your query to a closed list of specialists in Byzantine theology, philosophy, and science. It is comprised of historians, scientists, theologians, philosophers.
        >
        >From: Marco <marcobormann@...>
        >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:00 PM
        >Subject: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
        >

        >In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
        >Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
        >And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic like Galen of example?
        >
        >Thanks a lot
        >Marco
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marco Bormann
        thanks a lot,   coming like this all of a sudden, it did not look at all like being Gregory s invention I found some parts of it in Galen now ... [Non-text
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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          thanks a lot,
           
          coming like this all of a sudden, it did not look at all like being Gregory's invention
          I found some parts of it in Galen now


          >________________________________
          > De : Goya <goya@...>
          >À : neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
          >Envoyé le : Jeudi 1 Décembre 2011 8h59
          >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
          >
          >
          >

          >
          >
          >> In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the
          >> last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is
          >> some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the
          >> organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
          >> Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts.
          >> But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled
          >> biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
          >
          >M.C. It's true that there are few surviving Neoplatonist accounts of the
          >natural world, but see now Marije Martijn, Proclus on Nature, and compare
          >Porphyry's Ad Gaurum, a detailed treatise on embryology
          >
          >> And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but
          >> someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is
          >> Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the
          >> topic like Galen of example?
          >
          >M.C. Yes, almost certainly, as was the case for Gregory's
          >near-contemporary Nemesius and his De Natura hominis
          >. See my article on the latter in R. Goulet's Dictionnaire des Philosophes
          >Antiques, vol. 4, p. 630: the sources suggested for both Gregory and
          >Nemesius include Posidonius and Porphyry's lost commentary on the Timaeus.
          >
          >HTH, MIke
          >
          >>
          >> Thanks a lot
          >> Marco
          >>
          >>
          >
          >Michael Chase
          >CNRS UPR 76
          >Paris-Villejuif
          >France
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Dillon
          ... That is actually most interesting. It is not, I think, characteristic of Neoplatonists to take a great interest in the details of the body as an organism.
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last
            > chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of
            > perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on
            > each other; which one is doing which job.
            > Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But
            > are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological
            > accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
            > And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but
            > someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is
            > Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic
            > like Galen of example?
            >
            > Thanks a lot
            > Marco
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            That is actually most interesting. It is not, I think, characteristic of
            Neoplatonists to take a great interest in the details of the body as an
            organism. Nemesius of Emesa does to some extent, but then he is a bishop.
            Ass for Gregory, he may be making use of Galen¹s De Usu Partium. JMD


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Adamson, Peter
            Dear Marco, A very interesting Neoplatonic text on biology is Porphyry s Ad Gaurum which was recently translated by James Wilberding in the Ancient
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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              Dear Marco,

              A very interesting Neoplatonic text on biology is Porphyry's "Ad Gaurum" which was recently translated by James Wilberding in the Ancient Commentators Project. It is not about usefulness of the parts, so to speak, but about embryology (the question of the work is how and at what stage the soul enters the developing fetus). It certainly shows that Neoplatonists were willing to discuss biological questions in detail. But then, Porphyry was a broad-minded guy.

              Best,
              Peter

              peter.adamson@...

              Philosophy Dept.
              King's College London
              Strand
              London WC2R 2LS

              The History of Philosophy Podcast
              http://www.historyofphilosophy.net
              On Twitter @HistPhilosophy
              ________________________________________
              From: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com [neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Dillon [jmdillon@...]
              Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:28 AM
              To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last
              > chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of
              > perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on
              > each other; which one is doing which job.
              > Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But
              > are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological
              > accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
              > And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but
              > someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is
              > Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic
              > like Galen of example?
              >
              > Thanks a lot
              > Marco
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              That is actually most interesting. It is not, I think, characteristic of
              Neoplatonists to take a great interest in the details of the body as an
              organism. Nemesius of Emesa does to some extent, but then he is a bishop.
              Ass for Gregory, he may be making use of Galen¹s De Usu Partium. JMD

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas Mether
              Marco,   I did get one reply that does not directly answer your question about the Neoplatonists interest in medicine and biology but I was told there is a
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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                Marco,
                 
                I did get one reply that does not directly answer your question about the Neoplatonists interest in medicine and biology but I was told there is a book out on the Cappadocians promotion of medical science that gives some background on philosophy, theology, and the patronage of medical science to the story of Basil the Great' construction of the Ptochoptopheion (also called the Basiliad). It is widely regarded as the first hospital where the poor could get medical treatment, the dying were cared for (so first hospice), and economically uprooted poor were given job re-training. Thus, he is the patron saint of hospitals and hospital administrators. I'm waiting for the book's bibliographical information. The person that replied said there is quite a lot of new stuff out on Proclus' involvement with the sciences including biology and medical arts.
                 
                I'll post more as I get it later.
                 
                Thomas  

                From: Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...>
                To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:38 AM
                Subject: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history


                 
                of course you have such permisson, Thomas
                thanks

                >________________________________
                > De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                >À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                >Envoyé le : Mercredi 30 Novembre 2011 22h10
                >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                >
                >
                >

                >
                >With your permission, I can forward your query to a closed list of specialists in Byzantine theology, philosophy, and science. It is comprised of historians, scientists, theologians, philosophers.
                >
                >From: Marco <marcobormann@...>
                >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:00 PM
                >Subject: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                >

                >In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
                >Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
                >And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic like Galen of example?
                >
                >Thanks a lot
                >Marco
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas Mether
                Marco,   PS. I got a little bit more in my other email address. Another respondent said Basil s hospital was also a research institution. Ever since Basil,
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 1, 2011
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                  Marco,
                   
                  PS. I got a little bit more in my other email address. Another respondent said Basil's hospital was also a research institution. Ever since Basil, hospitals until recently were where the poor went for treatment until Johns Hopkins became the first modern research hospital (like Basil's complex). He also said one of the areas where the Byzantines made great advances in science over their Graeco-Roman predecessors was in biology and medicine. He plans to send bibliographical info on articles on this that mention the Middle Platonic and Neoplatonic background to the study of medicine. A number of studies were done by Dumbarton Oaks.
                   
                  Thomas

                  From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                  To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:48 AM
                  Subject: Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history


                   
                  Marco,
                   
                  I did get one reply that does not directly answer your question about the Neoplatonists interest in medicine and biology but I was told there is a book out on the Cappadocians promotion of medical science that gives some background on philosophy, theology, and the patronage of medical science to the story of Basil the Great' construction of the Ptochoptopheion (also called the Basiliad). It is widely regarded as the first hospital where the poor could get medical treatment, the dying were cared for (so first hospice), and economically uprooted poor were given job re-training. Thus, he is the patron saint of hospitals and hospital administrators. I'm waiting for the book's bibliographical information. The person that replied said there is quite a lot of new stuff out on Proclus' involvement with the sciences including biology and medical arts.
                   
                  I'll post more as I get it later.
                   
                  Thomas  

                  From: Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...>
                  To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:38 AM
                  Subject: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history

                   
                  of course you have such permisson, Thomas
                  thanks

                  >________________________________
                  > De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                  >À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Envoyé le : Mercredi 30 Novembre 2011 22h10
                  >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  >
                  >With your permission, I can forward your query to a closed list of specialists in Byzantine theology, philosophy, and science. It is comprised of historians, scientists, theologians, philosophers.
                  >
                  >From: Marco <marcobormann@...>
                  >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:00 PM
                  >Subject: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                  >

                  >In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
                  >Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
                  >And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic like Galen of example?
                  >
                  >Thanks a lot
                  >Marco
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Thomas Mether
                  Marco, I received a bunch of replies. They are mainly sources. I m compiling them in a list (hopefully roughly alphabetical) but that will probably be next
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 2, 2011
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                    Marco,
                    I received a bunch of replies. They are mainly sources. I'm compiling them in a list (hopefully roughly alphabetical) but that will probably be next Monday or Tuesday. I'm knee deep in grading and don't want it to get higher but it will as end of term comes next week. Look for their recommendations around then.
                    Thomas

                    From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                    To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:01 AM
                    Subject: Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history


                     
                    Marco,
                     
                    PS. I got a little bit more in my other email address. Another respondent said Basil's hospital was also a research institution. Ever since Basil, hospitals until recently were where the poor went for treatment until Johns Hopkins became the first modern research hospital (like Basil's complex). He also said one of the areas where the Byzantines made great advances in science over their Graeco-Roman predecessors was in biology and medicine. He plans to send bibliographical info on articles on this that mention the Middle Platonic and Neoplatonic background to the study of medicine. A number of studies were done by Dumbarton Oaks.
                     
                    Thomas

                    From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                    To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history

                     
                    Marco,
                     
                    I did get one reply that does not directly answer your question about the Neoplatonists interest in medicine and biology but I was told there is a book out on the Cappadocians promotion of medical science that gives some background on philosophy, theology, and the patronage of medical science to the story of Basil the Great' construction of the Ptochoptopheion (also called the Basiliad). It is widely regarded as the first hospital where the poor could get medical treatment, the dying were cared for (so first hospice), and economically uprooted poor were given job re-training. Thus, he is the patron saint of hospitals and hospital administrators. I'm waiting for the book's bibliographical information. The person that replied said there is quite a lot of new stuff out on Proclus' involvement with the sciences including biology and medical arts.
                     
                    I'll post more as I get it later.
                     
                    Thomas  

                    From: Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...>
                    To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:38 AM
                    Subject: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history

                     
                    of course you have such permisson, Thomas
                    thanks

                    >________________________________
                    > De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                    >À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Envoyé le : Mercredi 30 Novembre 2011 22h10
                    >Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    >
                    >With your permission, I can forward your query to a closed list of specialists in Byzantine theology, philosophy, and science. It is comprised of historians, scientists, theologians, philosophers.
                    >
                    >From: Marco <marcobormann@...>
                    >To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:00 PM
                    >Subject: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                    >

                    >In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
                    >Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
                    >And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic like Galen of example?
                    >
                    >Thanks a lot
                    >Marco
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marco Bormann
                    Thanks a lot Thomas, don t bother too much with it but it sounds like something interesting coming up Marco ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks a lot Thomas,
                      don't bother too much with it
                      but it sounds like something interesting coming up
                      Marco


                      >________________________________
                      > De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                      >À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Envoyé le : Vendredi 2 Décembre 2011 22h32
                      >Objet : Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      >
                      >Marco,
                      >I received a bunch of replies. They are mainly sources. I'm compiling them in a list (hopefully roughly alphabetical) but that will probably be next Monday or Tuesday. I'm knee deep in grading and don't want it to get higher but it will as end of term comes next week. Look for their recommendations around then.
                      >Thomas
                      >
                      >From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                      >To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:01 AM
                      >Subject: Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >

                      >Marco,

                      >PS. I got a little bit more in my other email address. Another respondent said Basil's hospital was also a research institution. Ever since Basil, hospitals until recently were where the poor went for treatment until Johns Hopkins became the first modern research hospital (like Basil's complex). He also said one of the areas where the Byzantines made great advances in science over their Graeco-Roman predecessors was in biology and medicine. He plans to send bibliographical info on articles on this that mention the Middle Platonic and Neoplatonic background to the study of medicine. A number of studies were done by Dumbarton Oaks.

                      >Thomas
                      >
                      >From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                      >To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:48 AM
                      >Subject: Re: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >

                      >Marco,

                      >I did get one reply that does not directly answer your question about the Neoplatonists interest in medicine and biology but I was told there is a book out on the Cappadocians promotion of medical science that gives some background on philosophy, theology, and the patronage of medical science to the story of Basil the Great' construction of the Ptochoptopheion (also called the Basiliad). It is widely regarded as the first hospital where the poor could get medical treatment, the dying were cared for (so first hospice), and economically uprooted poor were given job re-training. Thus, he is the patron saint of hospitals and hospital administrators. I'm waiting for the book's bibliographical information. The person that replied said there is quite a lot of new stuff out on Proclus' involvement with the sciences including biology and medical arts.

                      >I'll post more as I get it later.

                      >Thomas  
                      >
                      >From: Marco Bormann <marcobormann@...>
                      >To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:38 AM
                      >Subject: Re : [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >

                      >of course you have such permisson, Thomas
                      >thanks
                      >
                      >>________________________________
                      >> De : Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                      >>À : "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
                      >>Envoyé le : Mercredi 30 Novembre 2011 22h10
                      >>Objet : Re: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> 
                      >>
                      >>With your permission, I can forward your query to a closed list of specialists in Byzantine theology, philosophy, and science. It is comprised of historians, scientists, theologians, philosophers.
                      >>
                      >>From: Marco <marcobormann@...>
                      >>To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                      >>Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:00 PM
                      >>Subject: [neoplatonism] Question on Biology or it's history
                      >>
                      >> 
                      >>In reading Gregory of Nyssa's "De opificio hominis" I am impressed by the last chapter where he does not stop at telling us that the organism is some kind of perfect system, he also tries to show in detail how all the organs depend on each other; which one is doing which job.
                      >>Gregory is after all no neoplatonist, at least according to my standarts. But are there any neoplatonists who bothered with such detailled biological accounts? Or is this to close to the dirty matter for them?
                      >>And another very special question, way off topic for any neoplatonist, but someone of you learned people in ancient texts might still know it: is Gregory's detailled account due to some known ancient specialist on the topic like Galen of example?
                      >>
                      >>Thanks a lot
                      >>Marco
                      >>
                      >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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