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Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

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  • dgallagher@aol.com
    Kathryn, Look here: _http://www.amazon.com/Yemenite-Midrash-Philosophical-Commentaries-Literature/dp/0761990046_
    Message 1 of 24 , May 9 8:35 AM
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      Kathryn,

      Look here:
      _http://www.amazon.com/Yemenite-Midrash-Philosophical-Commentaries-Literature/dp/0761990046_
      (http://www.amazon.com/Yemenite-Midrash-Philosophical-Commentaries-Literature/dp/0761990046) .

      I would not categorize the illustration as a labyrinth. Appears more
      likely an astrological mandala, although I'd need translation of the words in
      the ring.

      David


      In a message dated 5/8/2011 11:23:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      kathryn-e@... writes:




      Dear Tzvi,

      Unfortunately there is no photo available of your book cover image; if you
      find another similar one accessible online perhaps the conversation can go
      further than this.

      Thank you if you find another example,

      Kathryn

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tzvi Langermann
      To: Neoplatonism
      Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 12:45 AM
      Subject: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

      In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that
      are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular
      circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate
      the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal
      and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since
      humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of
      this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover
      of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet).
      My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek
      manuscript tradition?

      Thanks in advance,
      Tzvi Langermann

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vaeringjar
      ... Just a thought that comes to mind, but I wonder if any of the MSS of Proclus Commentary on the First Book of Euclid might hold such, in illustration of
      Message 2 of 24 , May 9 9:26 AM
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        --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Kathryn and all,
        >
        > If you just type "yemenite midrash langermann" in Google Images, jpeg's of the cover of my book will sprout like mushrooms in a rainy forest; it's actually quite embarassing.
        >
        > The diagram is a simple circle; there are other examples, and the whole enterprise was carried to extremes by Haydar Amoli; the diagrams are reproduced (in black and white only) in Henry Corbin & Osman Yahya, Le Texte des textes, Teheran & Paris, 1975. Corbin discusses them at length, and also in one his Eranos essays, I think. But I would like to know if such illustrations are found in Greek texts (or Syriac for that matter.)
        >
        > I was unaware of the illustrations of the Jericho maze; it's not the only puzzling illustration in Hebrew manuscripts. But I am looking for the simple circular diagrams that illustrate that the procession down from The One becomes a return, if/when a human does what s/he is supposed to do.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Kathryn Evans
        > Sent: 05/09/11 06:23 AM
        > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams
        >
        > Dear Tzvi,
        >
        > Unfortunately there is no photo available of your book cover image; if you find another similar one accessible online perhaps the conversation can go further than this.
        >
        > Thank you if you find another example,
        >
        > Kathryn
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Tzvi Langermann
        > To: Neoplatonism
        > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 12:45 AM
        > Subject: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams
        >
        > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Tzvi Langermann
        >

        Just a thought that comes to mind, but I wonder if any of the MSS of Proclus' Commentary on the First Book of Euclid might hold such, in illustration of his discussion of the circle there? I only have the Teubner and the Morrow translation, so hard to know from them what if any illustrations might have been made in the MSS.

        Your figure is however strikingly familiar, at least the rosette like central part. I have certainly seen that design, but carved in stone somewhere, because when I saw the bookcover my eyes, even early here this Monday morning saw the dark and light as raised and three dimensional and in stone. I have no idea where though. And probably not relevant either, but it certainly struck me, and felt as if I could touch the design with my hand. I was an undergraduate at Rice U in Houston, and the original buildings there, from now 100 year ago, have many interesting stone rvings, so it's possible it goes way back to those years...

        Good luck with finding these.

        Dennis Clark
      • dgallagher@aol.com
        Malcolm et al, The Vitruvius quote strikes me as resonant with the famous geometric construction generally referred to as the squaring of the circle . It s
        Message 3 of 24 , May 9 10:35 AM
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          Malcolm et al,

          The Vitruvius quote strikes me as resonant with the famous geometric
          construction generally referred to as "the squaring of the circle". It's
          discussed most accessibly in Robert Lawlor, Sacred Geometry, Ch. 7 (Thames and
          Hudson, 1982). Lawlor clearly explicates the Golden Ratio proportions which
          permeate the construction, perhaps indicating why it would be of interest to
          artists. It's my personal speculation that Plato was aware of this
          construction because it's a logical "extension" of his description and ensuing
          commentary on the divided line in Republic VI. This theory of association
          further involves the sequence in Republic of the analogy of the Sun, divided
          line and allegory of the cave where the first and third topics constitute
          extremes mediated by the second. The labyrinth is implicated as a geometric
          form symbolizing pilgrimage from the "outer" to the "inner" (center)
          representing the "place" of conversion/return (transformation), the latter
          corresponding to the third term of the noetic-noeric triad in Proclus, PT.

          To my knowledge there are no surviving artifacts evidencing the actual
          images created by the ancients in the process of their geometric practice.
          Reason and intuition, however, based on the textual evidence, seem to at
          least suggest that they must have understood the mathematic and geometric
          implications in Plato. In that vein, the divided line presents a precise
          approach to analogical reasoning which is apparent "through" the practice of
          geometry in philosophic enquiry; the veritable essence of symbolic
          representation. The reasoning is expressed mathematically as proportion.

          There are many examples in Plotinus (e.g., IV.4.23), and it can be seen in
          Proclus, PT, in the contrasting contexts where he uses the phrasing "on
          account of" versus "in accord with" (Taylor's translation).

          Finally, Rene Guenon wrote a penetrating essay on the labyrinth as a
          symbol of the cosmos. Central to his argument is the symbolism of the cave.
          Fundamental Symbols: The Universal Language of Sacred Science. Compiled &
          edited, Michel Valsan. Translation, Alvin Moore, Jr. Revised & edited,
          Martin Lings (French publication: Gallimard, 1962; first English translation,
          1995; revised edition: Quinta Essentia, UK). He did another piece on
          analogy that fits beautifully with what I'm suggesting, but I don't have the
          reference immediately offhand.

          There's an additional number aspect in all of this that involves
          Paracelsus' Magic Square of the Moon. If you observe the pattern of odd and even
          numbers in that specific square, they form the so-called "seed pattern" of
          the classical Cretan labyrinth; the odd (male) delineating the "structure"
          and the even (female) the "path". The geometry of that particular labyrinth
          pattern is especially pregnant in terms of Platonic and Neoplatonic
          representation. Further, the algorithm of Paracelsus' odd-ordered series of
          squares is expandable to the 365th order square which David Fideler published in
          Jesus Christ, Sun of God. Can't locate my copy at the moment, so no page
          reference. Fideler apparently did not discern the connection with Paracelsus,
          who likely got it from an untraceable Islamic source. Earth, within this
          symbolism, would correspond with the cave.

          Sorry for going on at such length.

          David


          In a message dated 5/9/2011 8:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          malcolmschosha@... writes:

          There is the interesting description of the human figure, inscribed in a
          circle found in Vitruvius' De architectura 3.1.2-3, which says in part:

          "if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended,
          and a pair of compasses centred at his navel, the fingers and toes of his two
          hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described
          therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too a square
          figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the soles of
          the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the
          outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the height, as in
          the case of plane surfaces which are perfectly square."

          There is the very famous drawing made by Leonardo based on that
          _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_
          (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg)

          The earlier part of the same section in De Architectura deals with human
          proportions in a way that is of practical interest to an artist, but the
          part I copied above has no actual application, and so might be from
          philosophical sources. But Vitruvius seems to have lived from about 80 or 70 BCE, to
          around 15 BC, so he could not be referring to any sources that are
          neoplatonic.

          Malcolm




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Malcolm
          ... ........................ I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet
          Message 4 of 24 , May 9 10:51 AM
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            --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
            >
            > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
            >
            > Thanks in advance,
            > Tzvi Langermann
            >
            >
            ........................

            I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

            "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."

            It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
            "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
            above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"

            If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.

            Malcolm
          • dgallagher@aol.com
            ... are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the
            Message 5 of 24 , May 9 11:35 AM
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              --- In _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
              , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
              >
              > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that
              are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular
              circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate
              the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to
              Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since
              humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram
              of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover
              of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the
              internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek
              manuscript tradition?
              >
              > Thanks in advance,
              > Tzvi Langermann
              >
              >
              ........................

              I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on
              Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of
              Philosophy:

              "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on
              the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the
              images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal
              (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing
              his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular,
              represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all
              things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with
              all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them
              ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."

              It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
              "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a
              certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
              above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms
              every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"

              If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she
              could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the
              motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to
              the circle.

              Malcolm



              The symbolisms described seem consistent with Neoplatonic doctrine, but
              require some explanation. I'm not at all good at that in a terse manner.
              The best illustrations with which I'm familiar are in Plotinus with his
              frequent analogies to the circle and sphere. Need to locate a few for citation
              in a follow up post (as time allows). All circle references involve
              allusion to the genera same and different, motion and rest. Think in those terms
              in conjunction with center and circumference, bearing in mind that all
              geometric representation necessarily begins "from" a point where everything
              which ensues, regardless of form, is absolutely dependent upon that point; is
              symbolically immanent within (with + in) the point. Thus, one "turns"
              (motion) the circumference from a point that's at rest, which corresponds with
              active and passive perfection. And the word "form" is, in a sense, both
              same and different than "from" by virtue of transposing the middle letters of
              the words.

              I'm interested in the word "mire". What is the Greek word in the original
              and possible synonyms for rendering in English?

              David

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Malcolm
              Thanks for the helpful reply, David. I will certainly follow up on some of the sources you mention. (I already have the Lawlor book.) The Golden Ratio is one
              Message 6 of 24 , May 9 1:20 PM
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                Thanks for the helpful reply, David. I will certainly follow up on some of the sources you mention. (I already have the Lawlor book.)

                The Golden Ratio is one of the most interesting, and frustrating, of topics. It can be found in many works of art. But why that is so is difficult to account for. For instance, Jay Hambidge discusses it at length as it appears in Attic pottery. There is no doubt the proportion is there in the pottery, but the Greek potters could not have done the measurements that resulted it the proportion. The reason is that 1) pottery shrinks when it dries and when it is fired, and the diameter shrinks more than the height in most shapes, so all the original proportions change; and 2) the configuration of the Greek potters wheels allowed for virtually no measurements. The complexities that Hambidge demonstrates in the geometry of the vases would have almost certainly have been beyond the capabilities of the Greek potters; but Hambidge seems to been unaware of the technical problems. Moreover, there were times I made pots without any consideration of the golden section but, when I later did some measuring, found the vases actually had the ratio throughout.

                According to Mario Livio in his book, The Golden Ratio, the discovery of 'irrational numbers', (such as the golden section) probably occurred around the 5th century BCE, and the discovery caused a philosophical crisis. "What is clear is that the Pythagoreans basically believed that the existence of such numbers was so horrific that it must represent some sort of cosmic error, one that should be suppressed and kept secret." p5

                The Hambidge book is on goolge books
                http://books.google.com/books?id=Qq4gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynamic+symmetry:+the+Greek+vase&hl=en&ei=XkjITYoCqOTRAa-Q6ZII&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

                At least some of Livio's book can be read online too:
                http://books.google.com/books?id=bUARfgWRH14C&printsec=frontcover&dq=mario+livio,+the+golden+ratio&hl=en&ei=WkvITa70I4bk0QH2mYzwBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

                Malcolm


                --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, dgallagher@... wrote:
                >
                > Malcolm et al,
                >
                > The Vitruvius quote strikes me as resonant with the famous geometric
                > construction generally referred to as "the squaring of the circle". It's
                > discussed most accessibly in Robert Lawlor, Sacred Geometry, Ch. 7 (Thames and
                > Hudson, 1982). Lawlor clearly explicates the Golden Ratio proportions which
                > permeate the construction, perhaps indicating why it would be of interest to
                > artists. It's my personal speculation that Plato was aware of this
                > construction because it's a logical "extension" of his description and ensuing
                > commentary on the divided line in Republic VI. This theory of association
                > further involves the sequence in Republic of the analogy of the Sun, divided
                > line and allegory of the cave where the first and third topics constitute
                > extremes mediated by the second. The labyrinth is implicated as a geometric
                > form symbolizing pilgrimage from the "outer" to the "inner" (center)
                > representing the "place" of conversion/return (transformation), the latter
                > corresponding to the third term of the noetic-noeric triad in Proclus, PT.
                >
                > To my knowledge there are no surviving artifacts evidencing the actual
                > images created by the ancients in the process of their geometric practice.
                > Reason and intuition, however, based on the textual evidence, seem to at
                > least suggest that they must have understood the mathematic and geometric
                > implications in Plato. In that vein, the divided line presents a precise
                > approach to analogical reasoning which is apparent "through" the practice of
                > geometry in philosophic enquiry; the veritable essence of symbolic
                > representation. The reasoning is expressed mathematically as proportion.
                >
                > There are many examples in Plotinus (e.g., IV.4.23), and it can be seen in
                > Proclus, PT, in the contrasting contexts where he uses the phrasing "on
                > account of" versus "in accord with" (Taylor's translation).
                >
                > Finally, Rene Guenon wrote a penetrating essay on the labyrinth as a
                > symbol of the cosmos. Central to his argument is the symbolism of the cave.
                > Fundamental Symbols: The Universal Language of Sacred Science. Compiled &
                > edited, Michel Valsan. Translation, Alvin Moore, Jr. Revised & edited,
                > Martin Lings (French publication: Gallimard, 1962; first English translation,
                > 1995; revised edition: Quinta Essentia, UK). He did another piece on
                > analogy that fits beautifully with what I'm suggesting, but I don't have the
                > reference immediately offhand.
                >
                > There's an additional number aspect in all of this that involves
                > Paracelsus' Magic Square of the Moon. If you observe the pattern of odd and even
                > numbers in that specific square, they form the so-called "seed pattern" of
                > the classical Cretan labyrinth; the odd (male) delineating the "structure"
                > and the even (female) the "path". The geometry of that particular labyrinth
                > pattern is especially pregnant in terms of Platonic and Neoplatonic
                > representation. Further, the algorithm of Paracelsus' odd-ordered series of
                > squares is expandable to the 365th order square which David Fideler published in
                > Jesus Christ, Sun of God. Can't locate my copy at the moment, so no page
                > reference. Fideler apparently did not discern the connection with Paracelsus,
                > who likely got it from an untraceable Islamic source. Earth, within this
                > symbolism, would correspond with the cave.
                >
                > Sorry for going on at such length.
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 5/9/2011 8:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                > malcolmschosha@... writes:
                >
                > There is the interesting description of the human figure, inscribed in a
                > circle found in Vitruvius' De architectura 3.1.2-3, which says in part:
                >
                > "if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended,
                > and a pair of compasses centred at his navel, the fingers and toes of his two
                > hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described
                > therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too a square
                > figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the soles of
                > the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the
                > outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the height, as in
                > the case of plane surfaces which are perfectly square."
                >
                > There is the very famous drawing made by Leonardo based on that
                > _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_
                > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg)
                >
                > The earlier part of the same section in De Architectura deals with human
                > proportions in a way that is of practical interest to an artist, but the
                > part I copied above has no actual application, and so might be from
                > philosophical sources. But Vitruvius seems to have lived from about 80 or 70 BCE, to
                > around 15 BC, so he could not be referring to any sources that are
                > neoplatonic.
                >
                > Malcolm
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • dgallagher@aol.com
                Malcolm, Take Livio with the proverbial grain of salt. He s a skeptical empiricist constrained by the limitations of discursive reason and unable to
                Message 7 of 24 , May 9 3:05 PM
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                  Malcolm,

                  Take Livio with the proverbial grain of salt. He's a skeptical empiricist
                  constrained by the limitations of discursive reason and unable to
                  transcend those bonds to grasp the ideal though intuition.

                  The story about the Pythagoreans' horror over irrationals is an old saw.
                  Schwaller amply demonstrated the Egyptians' knowledge of Phi, so perception
                  of the ratio predates the Greeks. Personally, I don't buy the legend
                  regarding the Pythagoreans and certain root ratios. They conform too closely
                  with the idea of hyparxis, as illustrated by the root 2 separation between
                  notes in the diatonic scale. Incidentally, Schwaller referred to Phi as the
                  principle of generation.

                  Regarding your pottery made without consideration of the golden section,
                  consider the following: you are to the point as the circumference is to your
                  pottery, just as a:b::b:a+b in the divided line, subsuming "a" to the
                  intelligible and "b" to the sensible. In a manner of speaking, you are the
                  (emanated) ratio which is unconsciously projected through you onto the matter
                  which is the substrate of your art. Whenever I visit a museum or take a
                  walk in the woods, I carry a pocket phi caliper to gauge what I "see".
                  Nature approximates the perfection which it images. Some images measure more
                  conformably with perfection than others. One needs a very good compass and
                  steady hand to draw near to perfection. In terms of the artist and the art,
                  the artist is the measure and the art is the measured.

                  Incidentally, the Greek meander morphs into the classical labyrinth when
                  rotated on a plane around a center.

                  David



                  In a message dated 5/9/2011 4:20:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  malcolmschosha@... writes:





                  Thanks for the helpful reply, David. I will certainly follow up on some of
                  the sources you mention. (I already have the Lawlor book.)

                  The Golden Ratio is one of the most interesting, and frustrating, of
                  topics. It can be found in many works of art. But why that is so is difficult to
                  account for. For instance, Jay Hambidge discusses it at length as it
                  appears in Attic pottery. There is no doubt the proportion is there in the
                  pottery, but the Greek potters could not have done the measurements that
                  resulted it the proportion. The reason is that 1) pottery shrinks when it dries
                  and when it is fired, and the diameter shrinks more than the height in most
                  shapes, so all the original proportions change; and 2) the configuration of
                  the Greek potters wheels allowed for virtually no measurements. The
                  complexities that Hambidge demonstrates in the geometry of the vases would have
                  almost certainly have been beyond the capabilities of the Greek potters; but
                  Hambidge seems to been unaware of the technical problems. Moreover, there
                  were times I made pots without any consideration of the golden section but,
                  when I later did some measuring, found the vases actually had the ratio
                  throughout.

                  According to Mario Livio in his book, The Golden Ratio, the discovery of
                  'irrational numbers', (such as the golden section) probably occurred around
                  the 5th century BCE, and the discovery caused a philosophical crisis. "What
                  is clear is that the Pythagoreans basically believed that the existence of
                  such numbers was so horrific that it must represent some sort of cosmic
                  error, one that should be suppressed and kept secret." p5

                  The Hambidge book is on goolge books
                  _http://books.google.com/books?id=Qq4gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynami
                  c+symmetry:+the+Greek+vase&hl=en&ei=XkjITYoCqOTRAa-Q6ZII&sa=X&oi=book_result
                  &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false_
                  (http://books.google.com/books?id=Qq4gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynamic+symmetry:+the+Gre
                  ek+vase&hl=en&ei=XkjITYoCqOTRAa-Q6ZII&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
                  &ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

                  At least some of Livio's book can be read online too:
                  _http://books.google.com/books?id=bUARfgWRH14C&printsec=frontcover&dq=mario+
                  livio,+the+golden+ratio&hl=en&ei=WkvITa70I4bk0QH2mYzwBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&
                  ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false_
                  (http://books.google.com/books?id=bUARfgWRH14C&printsec=frontcover&dq=mario+livio,+the+golden+ra
                  tio&hl=en&ei=WkvITa70I4bk0QH2mYzwBw&sa=X&oi=
                  book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

                  Malcolm


                  --- In _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                  , dgallagher@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Malcolm et al,
                  >
                  > The Vitruvius quote strikes me as resonant with the famous geometric
                  > construction generally referred to as "the squaring of the circle". It's

                  > discussed most accessibly in Robert Lawlor, Sacred Geometry, Ch. 7
                  (Thames and
                  > Hudson, 1982). Lawlor clearly explicates the Golden Ratio proportions
                  which
                  > permeate the construction, perhaps indicating why it would be of
                  interest to
                  > artists. It's my personal speculation that Plato was aware of this
                  > construction because it's a logical "extension" of his description and
                  ensuing
                  > commentary on the divided line in Republic VI. This theory of
                  association
                  > further involves the sequence in Republic of the analogy of the Sun,
                  divided
                  > line and allegory of the cave where the first and third topics
                  constitute
                  > extremes mediated by the second. The labyrinth is implicated as a
                  geometric
                  > form symbolizing pilgrimage from the "outer" to the "inner" (center)
                  > representing the "place" of conversion/return (transformation), the
                  latter
                  > corresponding to the third term of the noetic-noeric triad in Proclus,
                  PT.
                  >
                  > To my knowledge there are no surviving artifacts evidencing the actual
                  > images created by the ancients in the process of their geometric
                  practice.
                  > Reason and intuition, however, based on the textual evidence, seem to at
                  > least suggest that they must have understood the mathematic and
                  geometric
                  > implications in Plato. In that vein, the divided line presents a precise
                  > approach to analogical reasoning which is apparent "through" the
                  practice of
                  > geometry in philosophic enquiry; the veritable essence of symbolic
                  > representation. The reasoning is expressed mathematically as proportion.
                  >
                  > There are many examples in Plotinus (e.g., IV.4.23), and it can be seen
                  in
                  > Proclus, PT, in the contrasting contexts where he uses the phrasing "on
                  > account of" versus "in accord with" (Taylor's translation).
                  >
                  > Finally, Rene Guenon wrote a penetrating essay on the labyrinth as a
                  > symbol of the cosmos. Central to his argument is the symbolism of the
                  cave.
                  > Fundamental Symbols: The Universal Language of Sacred Science. Compiled
                  &
                  > edited, Michel Valsan. Translation, Alvin Moore, Jr. Revised & edited,
                  > Martin Lings (French publication: Gallimard, 1962; first English
                  translation,
                  > 1995; revised edition: Quinta Essentia, UK). He did another piece on
                  > analogy that fits beautifully with what I'm suggesting, but I don't have
                  the
                  > reference immediately offhand.
                  >
                  > There's an additional number aspect in all of this that involves
                  > Paracelsus' Magic Square of the Moon. If you observe the pattern of odd
                  and even
                  > numbers in that specific square, they form the so-called "seed pattern"
                  of
                  > the classical Cretan labyrinth; the odd (male) delineating the
                  "structure"
                  > and the even (female) the "path". The geometry of that particular
                  labyrinth
                  > pattern is especially pregnant in terms of Platonic and Neoplatonic
                  > representation. Further, the algorithm of Paracelsus' odd-ordered series
                  of
                  > squares is expandable to the 365th order square which David Fideler
                  published in
                  > Jesus Christ, Sun of God. Can't locate my copy at the moment, so no page
                  > reference. Fideler apparently did not discern the connection with
                  Paracelsus,
                  > who likely got it from an untraceable Islamic source. Earth, within this

                  > symbolism, would correspond with the cave.
                  >
                  > Sorry for going on at such length.
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 5/9/2011 8:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  > malcolmschosha@... writes:
                  >
                  > There is the interesting description of the human figure, inscribed in a
                  > circle found in Vitruvius' De architectura 3.1.2-3, which says in part:
                  >
                  > "if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended,
                  > and a pair of compasses centred at his navel, the fingers and toes of
                  his two
                  > hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described
                  > therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too
                  a square
                  > figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the
                  soles of
                  > the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the
                  > outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the
                  height, as in
                  > the case of plane surfaces which are perfectly square."
                  >
                  > There is the very famous drawing made by Leonardo based on that
                  > __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg__
                  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_)
                  > (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_
                  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg) )
                  >
                  > The earlier part of the same section in De Architectura deals with human
                  > proportions in a way that is of practical interest to an artist, but the
                  > part I copied above has no actual application, and so might be from
                  > philosophical sources. But Vitruvius seems to have lived from about 80
                  or 70 BCE, to
                  > around 15 BC, so he could not be referring to any sources that are
                  > neoplatonic.
                  >
                  > Malcolm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Malcolm
                  Salve David. I know that Livilo is a Skeptic, and I find that a helpful counter balance to my own inclinations. Schwaller is fascinating reading, but my
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 9 3:42 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Salve David.

                    I know that Livilo is a Skeptic, and I find that a helpful counter balance to my own inclinations. Schwaller is fascinating reading, but my current point of view is that perhaps it is his views that need to be taken with some caution.

                    Golden section based designs are interesting to make with pencil, paper, straight edge and compass; but they are very uncomfortable to work with when actually making objects. Although I am still as interested as ever in the golden section as an idea; after years of experimenting with actually using it, I see little or nothing to be gained by all the extra work and time required, and tend to think it is just not worth the trouble needed to apply it. (That might be different in architecture, where the projects are longer, and everything is measured anyhow.)

                    I once designed a lot of new labyrinths over the course of a year. There must be about 50-100 drawings in a folder. If I get some time, I will scan some of them and put them on my Flickr page.

                    Ci vediamo.
                    Malcolm





                    --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, dgallagher@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Malcolm,
                    >
                    > Take Livio with the proverbial grain of salt. He's a skeptical empiricist
                    > constrained by the limitations of discursive reason and unable to
                    > transcend those bonds to grasp the ideal though intuition.
                    >
                    > The story about the Pythagoreans' horror over irrationals is an old saw.
                    > Schwaller amply demonstrated the Egyptians' knowledge of Phi, so perception
                    > of the ratio predates the Greeks. Personally, I don't buy the legend
                    > regarding the Pythagoreans and certain root ratios. They conform too closely
                    > with the idea of hyparxis, as illustrated by the root 2 separation between
                    > notes in the diatonic scale. Incidentally, Schwaller referred to Phi as the
                    > principle of generation.
                    >
                    > Regarding your pottery made without consideration of the golden section,
                    > consider the following: you are to the point as the circumference is to your
                    > pottery, just as a:b::b:a+b in the divided line, subsuming "a" to the
                    > intelligible and "b" to the sensible. In a manner of speaking, you are the
                    > (emanated) ratio which is unconsciously projected through you onto the matter
                    > which is the substrate of your art. Whenever I visit a museum or take a
                    > walk in the woods, I carry a pocket phi caliper to gauge what I "see".
                    > Nature approximates the perfection which it images. Some images measure more
                    > conformably with perfection than others. One needs a very good compass and
                    > steady hand to draw near to perfection. In terms of the artist and the art,
                    > the artist is the measure and the art is the measured.
                    >
                    > Incidentally, the Greek meander morphs into the classical labyrinth when
                    > rotated on a plane around a center.
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 5/9/2011 4:20:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > malcolmschosha@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for the helpful reply, David. I will certainly follow up on some of
                    > the sources you mention. (I already have the Lawlor book.)
                    >
                    > The Golden Ratio is one of the most interesting, and frustrating, of
                    > topics. It can be found in many works of art. But why that is so is difficult to
                    > account for. For instance, Jay Hambidge discusses it at length as it
                    > appears in Attic pottery. There is no doubt the proportion is there in the
                    > pottery, but the Greek potters could not have done the measurements that
                    > resulted it the proportion. The reason is that 1) pottery shrinks when it dries
                    > and when it is fired, and the diameter shrinks more than the height in most
                    > shapes, so all the original proportions change; and 2) the configuration of
                    > the Greek potters wheels allowed for virtually no measurements. The
                    > complexities that Hambidge demonstrates in the geometry of the vases would have
                    > almost certainly have been beyond the capabilities of the Greek potters; but
                    > Hambidge seems to been unaware of the technical problems. Moreover, there
                    > were times I made pots without any consideration of the golden section but,
                    > when I later did some measuring, found the vases actually had the ratio
                    > throughout.
                    >
                    > According to Mario Livio in his book, The Golden Ratio, the discovery of
                    > 'irrational numbers', (such as the golden section) probably occurred around
                    > the 5th century BCE, and the discovery caused a philosophical crisis. "What
                    > is clear is that the Pythagoreans basically believed that the existence of
                    > such numbers was so horrific that it must represent some sort of cosmic
                    > error, one that should be suppressed and kept secret." p5
                    >
                    > The Hambidge book is on goolge books
                    > _http://books.google.com/books?id=Qq4gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynami
                    > c+symmetry:+the+Greek+vase&hl=en&ei=XkjITYoCqOTRAa-Q6ZII&sa=X&oi=book_result
                    > &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false_
                    > (http://books.google.com/books?id=Qq4gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynamic+symmetry:+the+Gre
                    > ek+vase&hl=en&ei=XkjITYoCqOTRAa-Q6ZII&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
                    > &ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
                    >
                    > At least some of Livio's book can be read online too:
                    > _http://books.google.com/books?id=bUARfgWRH14C&printsec=frontcover&dq=mario+
                    > livio,+the+golden+ratio&hl=en&ei=WkvITa70I4bk0QH2mYzwBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&
                    > ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false_
                    > (http://books.google.com/books?id=bUARfgWRH14C&printsec=frontcover&dq=mario+livio,+the+golden+ra
                    > tio&hl=en&ei=WkvITa70I4bk0QH2mYzwBw&sa=X&oi=
                    > book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
                    >
                    > Malcolm
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                    > , dgallagher@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Malcolm et al,
                    > >
                    > > The Vitruvius quote strikes me as resonant with the famous geometric
                    > > construction generally referred to as "the squaring of the circle". It's
                    >
                    > > discussed most accessibly in Robert Lawlor, Sacred Geometry, Ch. 7
                    > (Thames and
                    > > Hudson, 1982). Lawlor clearly explicates the Golden Ratio proportions
                    > which
                    > > permeate the construction, perhaps indicating why it would be of
                    > interest to
                    > > artists. It's my personal speculation that Plato was aware of this
                    > > construction because it's a logical "extension" of his description and
                    > ensuing
                    > > commentary on the divided line in Republic VI. This theory of
                    > association
                    > > further involves the sequence in Republic of the analogy of the Sun,
                    > divided
                    > > line and allegory of the cave where the first and third topics
                    > constitute
                    > > extremes mediated by the second. The labyrinth is implicated as a
                    > geometric
                    > > form symbolizing pilgrimage from the "outer" to the "inner" (center)
                    > > representing the "place" of conversion/return (transformation), the
                    > latter
                    > > corresponding to the third term of the noetic-noeric triad in Proclus,
                    > PT.
                    > >
                    > > To my knowledge there are no surviving artifacts evidencing the actual
                    > > images created by the ancients in the process of their geometric
                    > practice.
                    > > Reason and intuition, however, based on the textual evidence, seem to at
                    > > least suggest that they must have understood the mathematic and
                    > geometric
                    > > implications in Plato. In that vein, the divided line presents a precise
                    > > approach to analogical reasoning which is apparent "through" the
                    > practice of
                    > > geometry in philosophic enquiry; the veritable essence of symbolic
                    > > representation. The reasoning is expressed mathematically as proportion.
                    > >
                    > > There are many examples in Plotinus (e.g., IV.4.23), and it can be seen
                    > in
                    > > Proclus, PT, in the contrasting contexts where he uses the phrasing "on
                    > > account of" versus "in accord with" (Taylor's translation).
                    > >
                    > > Finally, Rene Guenon wrote a penetrating essay on the labyrinth as a
                    > > symbol of the cosmos. Central to his argument is the symbolism of the
                    > cave.
                    > > Fundamental Symbols: The Universal Language of Sacred Science. Compiled
                    > &
                    > > edited, Michel Valsan. Translation, Alvin Moore, Jr. Revised & edited,
                    > > Martin Lings (French publication: Gallimard, 1962; first English
                    > translation,
                    > > 1995; revised edition: Quinta Essentia, UK). He did another piece on
                    > > analogy that fits beautifully with what I'm suggesting, but I don't have
                    > the
                    > > reference immediately offhand.
                    > >
                    > > There's an additional number aspect in all of this that involves
                    > > Paracelsus' Magic Square of the Moon. If you observe the pattern of odd
                    > and even
                    > > numbers in that specific square, they form the so-called "seed pattern"
                    > of
                    > > the classical Cretan labyrinth; the odd (male) delineating the
                    > "structure"
                    > > and the even (female) the "path". The geometry of that particular
                    > labyrinth
                    > > pattern is especially pregnant in terms of Platonic and Neoplatonic
                    > > representation. Further, the algorithm of Paracelsus' odd-ordered series
                    > of
                    > > squares is expandable to the 365th order square which David Fideler
                    > published in
                    > > Jesus Christ, Sun of God. Can't locate my copy at the moment, so no page
                    > > reference. Fideler apparently did not discern the connection with
                    > Paracelsus,
                    > > who likely got it from an untraceable Islamic source. Earth, within this
                    >
                    > > symbolism, would correspond with the cave.
                    > >
                    > > Sorry for going on at such length.
                    > >
                    > > David
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > In a message dated 5/9/2011 8:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > > malcolmschosha@ writes:
                    > >
                    > > There is the interesting description of the human figure, inscribed in a
                    > > circle found in Vitruvius' De architectura 3.1.2-3, which says in part:
                    > >
                    > > "if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended,
                    > > and a pair of compasses centred at his navel, the fingers and toes of
                    > his two
                    > > hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described
                    > > therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too
                    > a square
                    > > figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the
                    > soles of
                    > > the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the
                    > > outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the
                    > height, as in
                    > > the case of plane surfaces which are perfectly square."
                    > >
                    > > There is the very famous drawing made by Leonardo based on that
                    > > __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg__
                    > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_)
                    > > (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg_
                    > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uomo_Vitruviano.jpg) )
                    > >
                    > > The earlier part of the same section in De Architectura deals with human
                    > > proportions in a way that is of practical interest to an artist, but the
                    > > part I copied above has no actual application, and so might be from
                    > > philosophical sources. But Vitruvius seems to have lived from about 80
                    > or 70 BCE, to
                    > > around 15 BC, so he could not be referring to any sources that are
                    > > neoplatonic.
                    > >
                    > > Malcolm
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Marilynn Lawrence
                    HI, Malcolm, The statement from my IEP article is based on Iamblichus De mysteriis, 7.2. In the lines where he is talking about the circular appearance of the
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 9 6:00 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      HI, Malcolm,

                      The statement from my IEP article is based on Iamblichus' De mysteriis, 7.2.
                      In the lines where he is talking about the circular appearance of the lotus
                      (around lines 23-31) he likens it to the motion of nous.

                      I just dug up the Clarke and Dillon translation of this passage:

                      For everything to do with the lotus is seen circular, both the forms of the
                      leaves and the produce of the fruit, and it is the circular motion that is
                      uniquely connatural (sungene^s) with the activity of the intellect, and
                      which exhibits itself consistently in one order and according to one
                      principle.

                      Their footnote after nous (intellect):

                      The lotus is not, of course, in motion, but symbolises the circular motion
                      of the heavens, which in turn manifests the motion of Intellect.


                      If I didn't mention it in the astrology article, there is an "Egyptian" (I
                      put in quotes because there's no evidence that this is pre-Hellenistic
                      Alexandrian astrology/astronomy) technique of assigning 10 degrees per each
                      figure that co-rises alongside each of the zodiacal constellations (these
                      are not decan images). These figures (seated on a lotus) are listed in
                      astrologer Teukros of Babylon (outpost in Egypt) but further clues as to the
                      use are evident in the Greek magical papyri. This co-rising motion is along
                      the diurnal circle of the Same, which may have some association with the
                      movement of nous.

                      Marilynn





                      --- In <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi
                      Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that
                      are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular
                      circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can
                      illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on
                      down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at
                      Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to
                      the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in
                      Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think
                      can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of
                      this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance,
                      > Tzvi Langermann
                      >
                      >
                      ........................

                      I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic
                      Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of
                      Philosophy:

                      "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on
                      the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the
                      images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal
                      (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images
                      representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being
                      circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his
                      transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the
                      zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the
                      Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."

                      It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                      "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a
                      certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                      above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms
                      every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"

                      If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could
                      expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the
                      motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the
                      circle.

                      Malcolm




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kathryn Evans
                      Dear Tzvi, It took me a while to (perhaps) figure out where you are coming from in this inquiry. You and your wife are contributing to peace through embracing
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 9 9:09 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Tzvi,

                        It took me a while to (perhaps) figure out where you are coming from in this inquiry. You and your wife are contributing to peace through embracing a comparative psychology between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in Integral Psychology of Islam---that is grounded in a universally human symbol . . .the one on the cover of your book. If this is so, I can bring others interested up to speed via this link:

                        http://jalaledin.blogspot.com/2009/06/islams-contribution-to-psychology.html

                        In my understanding, the image on the cover of your book is a representation of arithmology, number mysticism, gematria, and so can be reduced to it's simplest geometric representation, the hexagram. My understanding is that this image itself, or the hexagram, represents the genesis of Creation, as written of in the first verses of Genesis in the Hebrew and Christian Bible, and of the first verses of the Kur'an called Fatihat al-Kitab.

                        These circular geometric mandala-form images are also permutations of images generated in the esoteric mathematics (arithmology) of the Pythagorean tradition. Both Plato, and Al-Kindi, are claimed to have propagated this tradition in the West. Following it backwards in time, it is thought by current-day experts that Pythagoras may have travelled to Syria. The Sumerian cuneiform tablets of 1300 years earlier informed his work, so we can research much older symbols as well.

                        But, a surviving Greek text (which is what you asked for) that describes this system is The Theology of Arithmetic, middle of the 4th Century CE. Probably Iamblichus' teacher Anatolius's The Decad, which is included in this translation, is older. The Theology of Arithmetic has been ascribed to Iamblichus, but was probably from a student's lecture notes. I don't read Greek, so here's a link to this recent translation. Page 75 is "On the Hexad" from Anatolius's work, represented by the image of the encircled hexagram.

                        http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Arithmetic-Iambilichus/dp/0933999720

                        http://www.scribd.com/doc/48888397/Iamblichus-the-Theology-of-Arithmetic

                        Page 75 of the above text: "The hexad is the first perfect number . . . It arises out of the first even and first odd numbers, male and female, as a product and by multiplication; hence it is called 'androgynous.' . . . Moreover, it is called 'marriage' because it is equal to its own parts, and it is the function of marriage to make offspring similar to parents." . . . "The harmonic mean is first formed by the hexad, since the sesquitertian ratio of 8 set against 6, and the double ratio of 12 set against 6, are both gained. . . . But number itself is found to have formed its progression to infinity by means of the hexad, in perfect additions."

                        In Plato's Timaeus, we can find circular geometric forms generated out of the tetractys, that lead the aspirant in return to the Good or One. They emanate out of the center of the primordial waters:

                        http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msdigby23a

                        That is a Latin manuscript though, of Calcidius, 1st half of 12th century France. The first stages of Cabala/Kabbalah were developing in Provence, Southern France, by that time, which Gershom Scholem claims is a synthesis of Jewish Gnostic, Neopythagorean, and Neoplatonic traditions.

                        I'll leave it to the other Neoplatonists on this list, who do read Greek, to direct you to versions in Greek.

                        This website that I've cited academically shows the recent excavation of the 1st Century CE Magdala Synagogue and stone, which is a very exciting discovery. This was, allegedly, a Jewish Synagogue where Christ and Mary Magdalene, and the other first Christian disciples, worshipped:

                        http://www.magdalacenter.com/Album.asp?pageID=91

                        This Jewish "Seed of Life," if you will allow for a contemporary translation of that image into these words, carved into the top of this ritual stone, is thus associated by Christians with Mary Magdalene. And by Muslims with all Mothers, as you'll see below.

                        The symbol/image on the front of your book is associated with motherhood, birth and child protection in many Hebrew sources, and is interchangeable with the hexagram Magen David in Jewish magic.

                        There are several beautiful illustrations of "birth amulets" (esp. pg. 86, as on your book cover) that include the Seed of Life image, in Angels and Demons: Jewish Magic Through the Ages, published by Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem. These all appear to be much more recent than the Magdala stone though. The Seed of Life image is itself not singled out as the fear-of-death image, but the whole birth amulet is. I would contend that fear of death is a later mis-interpretation, and that instead the Seed of Life symbolizes the genesis of Creation, perhaps the symbol of Mother of the Book, as is said in Islam.

                        The exact symbol on the cover of your book is also found on Islamic amulets worn by women about to give birth; see E.A. Wallis Budge's Amulets and Superstitions, Plate VIII. Others of these circular geometric mandala-form images are found in this section on Arab and Persian Amulets and Talismans.

                        In Islam, the Fatihat al-Kitab (Opening of the Book, or Basis of the Book, Mother of the Book, the Foundation) is said to contain the whole of the Kur'an in a nutshell. And as the beginning of the Kur'an, like the Jewish and Christian Bible, is a 7-fold description of the 6 days of Creation:

                        http://www.aaiil.org/text/hq/comm/mali/1/c1.shtml

                        http://www.alquran-karim.com/alFatihah.html

                        And the above verse does bring the aspirant full circle, back to Allah. Of course it is evident that you are not of the mind to hold that Judaism and Christianity have gone astray and that Islam is the only way of return.

                        The Omphalos at Delphi is a representative permutation of the Flower of Life, although I don't know of the Greek text that describes return to the One/Good via this symbol:

                        Here is a popular link to photos of this "Seed of Life," which generates the "Flower of Life":

                        http://www.floweroflife.org/folindia.htm

                        My research centers around an image of the Seed of Life, described as Nature emanating from the center to the circumference etc in a Medieval/Renaissance Latin text; and around the expression of that top-down circular geometric image as seen from a side-view. The side-view image is in a Latin manuscript of the same era: a Dionysian Celestial Hierarchy, with planets, angels, and numbers.

                        If you are interested to discuss this fascinating symbol off-list, since I'm also involved in Psychology, that might be good.

                        All Best,

                        Kathryn

                        Kathryn LaFevers Evans, M.A.
                        Three Eagles, Chickasaw Nation

                        Adjunct Professor, Pacifica Graduate Institute

                        Engaged Humanities & the Creative Life



                        kathryn-e@...

                        http://pacifica.academia.edu/KathrynLaFeversEvans

                        http://www.esswe.org/member_detail.php?member_id=171&ref=1





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tzvi Langermann
                        To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 10:43 PM
                        Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams



                        Dear Kathryn and all,

                        If you just type "yemenite midrash langermann" in Google Images, jpeg's of the cover of my book will sprout like mushrooms in a rainy forest; it's actually quite embarassing.

                        The diagram is a simple circle; there are other examples, and the whole enterprise was carried to extremes by Haydar Amoli; the diagrams are reproduced (in black and white only) in Henry Corbin & Osman Yahya, Le Texte des textes, Teheran & Paris, 1975. Corbin discusses them at length, and also in one his Eranos essays, I think. But I would like to know if such illustrations are found in Greek texts (or Syriac for that matter.)

                        I was unaware of the illustrations of the Jericho maze; it's not the only puzzling illustration in Hebrew manuscripts. But I am looking for the simple circular diagrams that illustrate that the procession down from The One becomes a return, if/when a human does what s/he is supposed to do.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Kathryn Evans
                        Sent: 05/09/11 06:23 AM
                        To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

                        Dear Tzvi,

                        Unfortunately there is no photo available of your book cover image; if you find another similar one accessible online perhaps the conversation can go further than this.

                        Thank you if you find another example,

                        Kathryn

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tzvi Langermann
                        To: Neoplatonism
                        Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 12:45 AM
                        Subject: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

                        In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?

                        Thanks in advance,
                        Tzvi Langermann

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Malcolm
                        Thank you, Marilynn. Your reply was very helpful, and much appreciated. Malcolm
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 10 4:56 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thank you, Marilynn. Your reply was very helpful, and much appreciated.

                          Malcolm

                          ..............................

                          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Marilynn Lawrence <pronoia12@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > HI, Malcolm,
                          >
                          > The statement from my IEP article is based on Iamblichus' De mysteriis, 7.2.
                          > In the lines where he is talking about the circular appearance of the lotus
                          > (around lines 23-31) he likens it to the motion of nous.
                          >
                          > I just dug up the Clarke and Dillon translation of this passage:
                          >
                          > For everything to do with the lotus is seen circular, both the forms of the
                          > leaves and the produce of the fruit, and it is the circular motion that is
                          > uniquely connatural (sungene^s) with the activity of the intellect, and
                          > which exhibits itself consistently in one order and according to one
                          > principle.
                          >
                          > Their footnote after nous (intellect):
                          >
                          > The lotus is not, of course, in motion, but symbolises the circular motion
                          > of the heavens, which in turn manifests the motion of Intellect.
                          >
                          >
                          > If I didn't mention it in the astrology article, there is an "Egyptian" (I
                          > put in quotes because there's no evidence that this is pre-Hellenistic
                          > Alexandrian astrology/astronomy) technique of assigning 10 degrees per each
                          > figure that co-rises alongside each of the zodiacal constellations (these
                          > are not decan images). These figures (seated on a lotus) are listed in
                          > astrologer Teukros of Babylon (outpost in Egypt) but further clues as to the
                          > use are evident in the Greek magical papyri. This co-rising motion is along
                          > the diurnal circle of the Same, which may have some association with the
                          > movement of nous.
                          >
                          > Marilynn
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi
                          > Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that
                          > are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular
                          > circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can
                          > illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on
                          > down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at
                          > Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to
                          > the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in
                          > Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think
                          > can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of
                          > this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                          > >
                          > > Thanks in advance,
                          > > Tzvi Langermann
                          > >
                          > >
                          > ........................
                          >
                          > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic
                          > Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of
                          > Philosophy:
                          >
                          > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on
                          > the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the
                          > images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal
                          > (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images
                          > representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being
                          > circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his
                          > transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the
                          > zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the
                          > Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                          >
                          > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                          > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a
                          > certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                          > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms
                          > every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                          >
                          > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could
                          > expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the
                          > motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the
                          > circle.
                          >
                          > Malcolm
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Kathryn Evans
                          Dear All, If I could field a technical question regarding a paper I ve submitted for publication, I would be most grateful. My concern is over Fair Use
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 10 7:41 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear All,

                            If I could field a technical question regarding a paper I've submitted for publication, I would be most grateful.

                            My concern is over Fair Use Copyright law regarding a paper that I submitted for publication online in an academic, peer-reviewed journal.

                            I had presented the paper, with accompanying powerpoint, under Fair Use at an academic conference. The images are all cited in detail, professionally, at the end of the document.

                            The paper is to be published online, including the images that I refer to in the paper and cite sources thoroughly.

                            My question is, in an online academic peer-reviewed journal, is my intended publication with images still legal under Fair Use Copyright law?

                            Many Thanks in advance for your professional advice,

                            Kathryn


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Kathryn Evans
                            To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 9:09 PM
                            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams




                            Dear Tzvi,

                            It took me a while to (perhaps) figure out where you are coming from in this inquiry. You and your wife are contributing to peace through embracing a comparative psychology between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in Integral Psychology of Islam---that is grounded in a universally human symbol . . .the one on the cover of your book. If this is so, I can bring others interested up to speed via this link:

                            http://jalaledin.blogspot.com/2009/06/islams-contribution-to-psychology.html

                            In my understanding, the image on the cover of your book is a representation of arithmology, number mysticism, gematria, and so can be reduced to it's simplest geometric representation, the hexagram. My understanding is that this image itself, or the hexagram, represents the genesis of Creation, as written of in the first verses of Genesis in the Hebrew and Christian Bible, and of the first verses of the Kur'an called Fatihat al-Kitab.

                            These circular geometric mandala-form images are also permutations of images generated in the esoteric mathematics (arithmology) of the Pythagorean tradition. Both Plato, and Al-Kindi, are claimed to have propagated this tradition in the West. Following it backwards in time, it is thought by current-day experts that Pythagoras may have travelled to Syria. The Sumerian cuneiform tablets of 1300 years earlier informed his work, so we can research much older symbols as well.

                            But, a surviving Greek text (which is what you asked for) that describes this system is The Theology of Arithmetic, middle of the 4th Century CE. Probably Iamblichus' teacher Anatolius's The Decad, which is included in this translation, is older. The Theology of Arithmetic has been ascribed to Iamblichus, but was probably from a student's lecture notes. I don't read Greek, so here's a link to this recent translation. Page 75 is "On the Hexad" from Anatolius's work, represented by the image of the encircled hexagram.

                            http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Arithmetic-Iambilichus/dp/0933999720

                            http://www.scribd.com/doc/48888397/Iamblichus-the-Theology-of-Arithmetic

                            Page 75 of the above text: "The hexad is the first perfect number . . . It arises out of the first even and first odd numbers, male and female, as a product and by multiplication; hence it is called 'androgynous.' . . . Moreover, it is called 'marriage' because it is equal to its own parts, and it is the function of marriage to make offspring similar to parents." . . . "The harmonic mean is first formed by the hexad, since the sesquitertian ratio of 8 set against 6, and the double ratio of 12 set against 6, are both gained. . . . But number itself is found to have formed its progression to infinity by means of the hexad, in perfect additions."

                            In Plato's Timaeus, we can find circular geometric forms generated out of the tetractys, that lead the aspirant in return to the Good or One. They emanate out of the center of the primordial waters:

                            http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msdigby23a

                            That is a Latin manuscript though, of Calcidius, 1st half of 12th century France. The first stages of Cabala/Kabbalah were developing in Provence, Southern France, by that time, which Gershom Scholem claims is a synthesis of Jewish Gnostic, Neopythagorean, and Neoplatonic traditions.

                            I'll leave it to the other Neoplatonists on this list, who do read Greek, to direct you to versions in Greek.

                            This website that I've cited academically shows the recent excavation of the 1st Century CE Magdala Synagogue and stone, which is a very exciting discovery. This was, allegedly, a Jewish Synagogue where Christ and Mary Magdalene, and the other first Christian disciples, worshipped:

                            http://www.magdalacenter.com/Album.asp?pageID=91

                            This Jewish "Seed of Life," if you will allow for a contemporary translation of that image into these words, carved into the top of this ritual stone, is thus associated by Christians with Mary Magdalene. And by Muslims with all Mothers, as you'll see below.

                            The symbol/image on the front of your book is associated with motherhood, birth and child protection in many Hebrew sources, and is interchangeable with the hexagram Magen David in Jewish magic.

                            There are several beautiful illustrations of "birth amulets" (esp. pg. 86, as on your book cover) that include the Seed of Life image, in Angels and Demons: Jewish Magic Through the Ages, published by Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem. These all appear to be much more recent than the Magdala stone though. The Seed of Life image is itself not singled out as the fear-of-death image, but the whole birth amulet is. I would contend that fear of death is a later mis-interpretation, and that instead the Seed of Life symbolizes the genesis of Creation, perhaps the symbol of Mother of the Book, as is said in Islam.

                            The exact symbol on the cover of your book is also found on Islamic amulets worn by women about to give birth; see E.A. Wallis Budge's Amulets and Superstitions, Plate VIII. Others of these circular geometric mandala-form images are found in this section on Arab and Persian Amulets and Talismans.

                            In Islam, the Fatihat al-Kitab (Opening of the Book, or Basis of the Book, Mother of the Book, the Foundation) is said to contain the whole of the Kur'an in a nutshell. And as the beginning of the Kur'an, like the Jewish and Christian Bible, is a 7-fold description of the 6 days of Creation:

                            http://www.aaiil.org/text/hq/comm/mali/1/c1.shtml

                            http://www.alquran-karim.com/alFatihah.html

                            And the above verse does bring the aspirant full circle, back to Allah. Of course it is evident that you are not of the mind to hold that Judaism and Christianity have gone astray and that Islam is the only way of return.

                            The Omphalos at Delphi is a representative permutation of the Flower of Life, although I don't know of the Greek text that describes return to the One/Good via this symbol:

                            Here is a popular link to photos of this "Seed of Life," which generates the "Flower of Life":

                            http://www.floweroflife.org/folindia.htm

                            My research centers around an image of the Seed of Life, described as Nature emanating from the center to the circumference etc in a Medieval/Renaissance Latin text; and around the expression of that top-down circular geometric image as seen from a side-view. The side-view image is in a Latin manuscript of the same era: a Dionysian Celestial Hierarchy, with planets, angels, and numbers.

                            If you are interested to discuss this fascinating symbol off-list, since I'm also involved in Psychology, that might be good.

                            All Best,

                            Kathryn

                            Kathryn LaFevers Evans, M.A.
                            Three Eagles, Chickasaw Nation

                            Adjunct Professor, Pacifica Graduate Institute

                            Engaged Humanities & the Creative Life

                            kathryn-e@...

                            http://pacifica.academia.edu/KathrynLaFeversEvans

                            http://www.esswe.org/member_detail.php?member_id=171&ref=1

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Tzvi Langermann
                            To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 10:43 PM
                            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

                            Dear Kathryn and all,

                            If you just type "yemenite midrash langermann" in Google Images, jpeg's of the cover of my book will sprout like mushrooms in a rainy forest; it's actually quite embarassing.

                            The diagram is a simple circle; there are other examples, and the whole enterprise was carried to extremes by Haydar Amoli; the diagrams are reproduced (in black and white only) in Henry Corbin & Osman Yahya, Le Texte des textes, Teheran & Paris, 1975. Corbin discusses them at length, and also in one his Eranos essays, I think. But I would like to know if such illustrations are found in Greek texts (or Syriac for that matter.)

                            I was unaware of the illustrations of the Jericho maze; it's not the only puzzling illustration in Hebrew manuscripts. But I am looking for the simple circular diagrams that illustrate that the procession down from The One becomes a return, if/when a human does what s/he is supposed to do.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Kathryn Evans
                            Sent: 05/09/11 06:23 AM
                            To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

                            Dear Tzvi,

                            Unfortunately there is no photo available of your book cover image; if you find another similar one accessible online perhaps the conversation can go further than this.

                            Thank you if you find another example,

                            Kathryn

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Tzvi Langermann
                            To: Neoplatonism
                            Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 12:45 AM
                            Subject: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams

                            In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?

                            Thanks in advance,
                            Tzvi Langermann

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • dgallagher@aol.com
                            In a message dated 5/10/2011 1:37:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kathryn-e@sbcglobal.net writes: Exactly David, thank you. Would you be willing to forward this
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 11 9:45 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 5/10/2011 1:37:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              kathryn-e@... writes:

                              Exactly David, thank you.

                              Would you be willing to forward this email to the Neoplatonism listserv?

                              I will say this regarding my own research on number symbolism, based on a
                              dream I had last night:

                              Even white polar bears are Wind-walkers in the Noosphere.

                              All Best,

                              Kathryn


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: _DGallagher@..._ (mailto:DGallagher@...)
                              To: _kathryn-e@..._ (mailto:kathryn-e@...)
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:03 AM
                              Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] query on circular diagrams


                              In a message dated 5/10/2011 12:09:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              _kathryn-e@..._ (mailto:kathryn-e@...) writes:


                              Dear Tzvi,

                              [excerpt] In Islam, the Fatihat al-Kitab (Opening of the Book, or Basis of
                              the Book, Mother of the Book, the Foundation) is said to contain the whole
                              of the Kur'an in a nutshell. And as the beginning of the Kur'an, like the
                              Jewish and Christian Bible, is a 7-fold description of the 6 days of
                              Creation:



                              Kathryn,

                              In one of my geometric doodling moments playing with the divided line, a
                              particular construction emerged that seems related to your comments. It's
                              depicted in the attached file.

                              Given the seed symbolism traditionally associated with the vesica piscis,
                              it's striking how the shared radius of the intersecting circles yield the
                              depicted outcome when the radius is divided per Plato's description; the
                              resulting points of the interpenetrating pentagons nested perfectly on the
                              opposing arcs, together forming a compressed hexagon as if emerging through a
                              vaginal birth canal. Moreover, the construction sequence establishes all
                              of the points necessary to form the three dimensional illusion of a
                              hexahedron on a 2 dimensional plane.

                              The symbolism becomes all the more interesting given a dodecahedron is an
                              outer shell with its substrate constituted of 5 interpenetrating
                              hexahedrons.

                              What prompted this sharing was your use of the word "nutshell".

                              David
                              Addendum: Since attachments can't be posted to the list, I'll be happy to
                              send the above-referenced file on request to anyone who would like to see
                              it. Please reply privately: _dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...)

                              David

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • gregshaw58
                              Dear Malcolm, Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 13 6:36 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Malcolm,

                                Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.

                                gshaw

                                --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks in advance,
                                > > Tzvi Langermann
                                > >
                                > >
                                > ........................
                                >
                                > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                >
                                > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                >
                                > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                >
                                > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                >
                                > Malcolm
                                >
                              • Tzvi Langermann
                                Greg, thank you, that s very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 14 11:30 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Greg, thank you, that's very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one you cite ever illustrated in the Greek manuscript tradition?

                                  thanks, Tzvi Langermann
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: gregshaw58
                                  Sent: 05/14/11 04:36 AM
                                  To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams

                                  Dear Malcolm,

                                  Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.

                                  gshaw

                                  --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks in advance,
                                  > > Tzvi Langermann
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > ........................
                                  >
                                  > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                  >
                                  > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                  >
                                  > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                  > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                  > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                  >
                                  > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                  >
                                  > Malcolm
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Kathryn Evans
                                  Thank you for responding back Tzvi; I d hoped we hadn t lost you, particularly with my long reply. That was the end point of my reply though, that those on
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 14 11:49 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thank you for responding back Tzvi; I'd hoped we hadn't lost you, particularly with my long reply. That was the end point of my reply though, that those on this listserv who do read and translate Greek, and have seen the Greek manuscripts surely know.

                                    So although John's translation cited here by Greg is from a Latin version, there should be someone on this listserv who has read Greek manuscripts with the descriptions/illustrations you are looking for Tzvi.

                                    All Best,

                                    Kathryn


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Tzvi Langermann
                                    To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 11:30 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams



                                    Greg, thank you, that's very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one you cite ever illustrated in the Greek manuscript tradition?

                                    thanks, Tzvi Langermann
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: gregshaw58
                                    Sent: 05/14/11 04:36 AM
                                    To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams

                                    Dear Malcolm,

                                    Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.

                                    gshaw

                                    --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks in advance,
                                    > > Tzvi Langermann
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > ........................
                                    >
                                    > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                    >
                                    > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                    >
                                    > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                    > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                    > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                    >
                                    > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                    >
                                    > Malcolm
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Malcolm
                                    The survival of Greek manuscripts is outside my area of expertise, but I do know that they were on written on papyrus rolls. I also know that papyrus tends to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 14 1:28 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The survival of Greek manuscripts is outside my area of expertise, but I do know that they were on written on papyrus rolls. I also know that papyrus tends to be brittle even when new and, moreover, deteriorates very quickly when exposed to humidity. (That is why I never used it when papyrus became available again in the 1970s or 80s.)

                                      My guess is that so few of the Greek manuscripts have survived in their original Greek papyrus roll form, that illustrations of any sort would be extremely rare. Alexandria might be a likely location to find such documents, because of the dry climate of Egypt, but the libraries there seem to have been subjected to extensive damage.

                                      There is the interesting development, restoration of documents in the library of a villa discovered in Herculaneum, but the manuscripts discovered and restored are all (as far as I know) Epicurean.
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Papyri

                                      Malcolm

                                      ................................


                                      --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Greg, thank you, that's very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one you cite ever illustrated in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                      >
                                      > thanks, Tzvi Langermann
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: gregshaw58
                                      > Sent: 05/14/11 04:36 AM
                                      > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams
                                      >
                                      > Dear Malcolm,
                                      >
                                      > Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.
                                      >
                                      > gshaw
                                      >
                                      > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks in advance,
                                      > > > Tzvi Langermann
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > ........................
                                      > >
                                      > > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                      > >
                                      > > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                      > >
                                      > > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                      > > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                      > > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                      > >
                                      > > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                      > >
                                      > > Malcolm
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Tzvi Langermann
                                      Please please friends! I appreciate the efforts of many to answer my query, but there are people on the list who do work with Greek manuscripts, who perhaps
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 14 9:07 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Please please friends! I appreciate the efforts of many to answer my query, but there are people on the list who do work with Greek manuscripts, who perhaps can help. True, Greek mss. are almost all late, i.e. Byzantine, but they may preserve a tradition of illustration, or give evidence of a new Byzantine tradition of illustration. As someone who began his career long ago in the history of science, I am aware of illustrations in scientific texts from Greek manuscripts. There is a simple one in the flyleaf of T. L. Heath's translation of Euclid, vol. 1, taken "from the famous Bodleian MS of the Elements". There are some more involved astronomical figures in the plates at the end of volume 3 of Otto Neugebauer, A History of Ancient Mathematical Astronomy (a book that was strangely absent from the discussion on this list concerning precesssion...), plates VII (which looks to me to be a papyrus), VIII, and IX. But are there any circular figures in the mss of Proclus, Iamblichus, and co.? I wouldn't be surprised if the many mss of logical texts have diagrams of sorts; but what about neoplatonic philosophy?

                                        Thank you all again!
                                        Tzvi Langermann
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Malcolm
                                        Sent: 05/14/11 11:28 PM
                                        To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams

                                        The survival of Greek manuscripts is outside my area of expertise, but I do know that they were on written on papyrus rolls. I also know that papyrus tends to be brittle even when new and, moreover, deteriorates very quickly when exposed to humidity. (That is why I never used it when papyrus became available again in the 1970s or 80s.)

                                        My guess is that so few of the Greek manuscripts have survived in their original Greek papyrus roll form, that illustrations of any sort would be extremely rare. Alexandria might be a likely location to find such documents, because of the dry climate of Egypt, but the libraries there seem to have been subjected to extensive damage.

                                        There is the interesting development, restoration of documents in the library of a villa discovered in Herculaneum, but the manuscripts discovered and restored are all (as far as I know) Epicurean.
                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Papyri

                                        Malcolm

                                        ................................

                                        --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Greg, thank you, that's very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one you cite ever illustrated in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                        >
                                        > thanks, Tzvi Langermann
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: gregshaw58
                                        > Sent: 05/14/11 04:36 AM
                                        > To: neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams
                                        >
                                        > Dear Malcolm,
                                        >
                                        > Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.
                                        >
                                        > gshaw
                                        >
                                        > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thanks in advance,
                                        > > > Tzvi Langermann
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > ........................
                                        > >
                                        > > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                        > >
                                        > > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                        > >
                                        > > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                        > > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                        > > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                        > >
                                        > > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                        > >
                                        > > Malcolm
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Kathryn Evans
                                        Dear Tzvi, This may be just what you re looking for, though the manuscripts don t appear to be available online: http://www.ccc.ox.ac.uk/Catalogue-to-Part-1/
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 15 5:12 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Tzvi,

                                          This may be just what you're looking for, though the manuscripts don't appear to be available online:

                                          http://www.ccc.ox.ac.uk/Catalogue-to-Part-1/

                                          19. PROCLUS
                                          Diadochi in primum Elementorum Euclidis libri tres priori. Greek
                                          15th century manuscript. 95 ff.
                                          Coxe. CCC. 97
                                          Corpus Christi College, Oxford. Ms. 97

                                          Open at folio 14, showing the red chalk marks of the printer in Basle in 1553, who has marked off the page endings of the printed edition. Compare the beginning of the text on page 14 of the printed edition (no.20).
                                          Simon Grynaeus borrowed this manuscript from Corpus to provide the publisher of his printed edition with a text.

                                          Grynaeus presented a copy of the printed work to John Claymond (no. 20).





                                          20. EUCLIDES
                                          Elements. Greek. With commentary of Proclus on Book I / edited by S. Grynaeus
                                          Basle: Apud I. Hervagium, 1553. fol.
                                          BM STC Germany 1455-1600, p. 288
                                          (British Museum, Short title catalogue of books printed in German-speaking countries... 1455-1600 now in the British Museum (London, 1962.)
                                          Corpus Christi College, Oxford. [phi] F.3.10











































                                          Keep me informed of your project with these circular diagrams Tzvi, especially the symbol on your book cover!

                                          All Best,

                                          Kathryn

                                          Kathryn LaFevers Evans
                                          Three Eagles, Chickasaw Nation
                                          Adjunct Faculty, Pacifica Graduate Institute
                                          Engaged Humanities & the Creative Life
                                          kathryn-e@...



                                          PS: Another Latin edition of Euclid's Geometry---with one image available for viewing online. Columbia University Rare Book & Manuscript Library:

                                          http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/dlo?obj=ds.Columbia-NY.NNC-RBML.8073&size=large

                                          Well, Thomas if you're still listening on the list, you might be the only one who could purchase an original 1516 Lefevre edition of Euclid's Geometry:

                                          http://www.find-a-book.com/db/book852_1894.html

                                          The first translation from Greek to Latin by Bartolomeo Zamberti in 1505 can be viewed here:

                                          http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/consulta/busqueda_referencia.cmd?posicion=5&idValor=5246&forma=ficha&id=1664

                                          That edition was included in Lefevre's compiled edition of Euclid and Sacrobosco:

                                          http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_bks&q=Euclid+Geometry+d%27Etaples&fq=dt%3Abks

                                          All Best,

                                          Kathryn




                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Tzvi Langermann
                                          To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 9:07 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams



                                          Please please friends! I appreciate the efforts of many to answer my query, but there are people on the list who do work with Greek manuscripts, who perhaps can help. True, Greek mss. are almost all late, i.e. Byzantine, but they may preserve a tradition of illustration, or give evidence of a new Byzantine tradition of illustration. As someone who began his career long ago in the history of science, I am aware of illustrations in scientific texts from Greek manuscripts. There is a simple one in the flyleaf of T. L. Heath's translation of Euclid, vol. 1, taken "from the famous Bodleian MS of the Elements". There are some more involved astronomical figures in the plates at the end of volume 3 of Otto Neugebauer, A History of Ancient Mathematical Astronomy (a book that was strangely absent from the discussion on this list concerning precesssion...), plates VII (which looks to me to be a papyrus), VIII, and IX. But are there any circular figures in the mss of Proclus, Iamblichus, and co.? I wouldn't be surprised if the many mss of logical texts have diagrams of sorts; but what about neoplatonic philosophy?

                                          Thank you all again!
                                          Tzvi Langermann
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Malcolm
                                          Sent: 05/14/11 11:28 PM
                                          To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams

                                          The survival of Greek manuscripts is outside my area of expertise, but I do know that they were on written on papyrus rolls. I also know that papyrus tends to be brittle even when new and, moreover, deteriorates very quickly when exposed to humidity. (That is why I never used it when papyrus became available again in the 1970s or 80s.)

                                          My guess is that so few of the Greek manuscripts have survived in their original Greek papyrus roll form, that illustrations of any sort would be extremely rare. Alexandria might be a likely location to find such documents, because of the dry climate of Egypt, but the libraries there seem to have been subjected to extensive damage.

                                          There is the interesting development, restoration of documents in the library of a villa discovered in Herculaneum, but the manuscripts discovered and restored are all (as far as I know) Epicurean.
                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Papyri

                                          Malcolm

                                          ................................

                                          --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Greg, thank you, that's very much in line with my original query, to which Malcolm responded; but what I really want to know is this: were remarks like the one you cite ever illustrated in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                          >
                                          > thanks, Tzvi Langermann
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: gregshaw58
                                          > Sent: 05/14/11 04:36 AM
                                          > To: neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: query on circular diagrams
                                          >
                                          > Dear Malcolm,
                                          >
                                          > Just checking back in to the site after a long hiatus. On the relation of the nous to circularity, this was a topos for Iamblichus and later platonists. For a specific reference see Fragment 49 of Iamblichus' Commentary on the Timaeus. There he says that the soul's ochema is "made spherical, and is moved in a circle, whenever the soul is especially assimilated to Mind (nous)" (translation by Dillon). You might also check DM 252.4-5 where the same point is asserted, equating the circle and circular motion with the nous.
                                          >
                                          > gshaw
                                          >
                                          > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Malcolm" <malcolmschosha@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In neoplatonism%2540yahoogroups.com , "Tzvi Langermann" <langermann@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In some of the varieties of medieval Islamic and Jewish philosophy that are called neoplatonic, one finds occasionally diagrams, in particular circular diagrams, used for illustration. For example, a circle can illsutrate the stages of emanation from The One, to Intellect, and so on down to Animal and then Humanity; but the circle closes on itself at Humanity, since humans--if they live their lives properly--can link back to the One. A diaram of this sort, with the "hypostases" named in Judaeo-Arabic, is on the cover of my book, Yemenite Midrash (and so I think can be viewed on the internet). My query is this: are there any diagrams of this sort in the Greek manuscript tradition?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks in advance,
                                          > > > Tzvi Langermann
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > ........................
                                          > >
                                          > > I noticed this, written by Marilynn Lawrence, in her article on Hellenistic Astrology (the section on Iamblichus) for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
                                          > >
                                          > > "Answering Porphyry's question about the meaning of the Sun god seated on the Lotus (an Egyptian astrological motif), Iamblichus responds that the images that change with the zodiacal hours are symbolic of an incorporeal (and unchanging) God who is unfolded in the Light through images representing his multiple gifts. His position above the Lotus (which, being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect) indicates his transcendence over all things. Curiously, Iamblichus also says that the zodiac signs along with all celestial motions, receive their power from the Sun, placing them ontologically subordinate to it (De mysteriis, 7.3)."
                                          > >
                                          > > It does seem a circular diagram, howbeit drawn with words:
                                          > > "What also is the meaning of those mystic narrations which say that a certain divinity is unfolded into light from mire, that he is seated
                                          > > above the lotus, that he sails in a ship, and that he changes his forms every hour, according to the signs of the zodiac?"
                                          > >
                                          > > If Marilynn Lawrence should read this, I would find it helpful if she could expand on her statement that the image "...being circular, represents the motion of the Intellect", as I am not familiar with that correlation to the circle.
                                          > >
                                          > > Malcolm
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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