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PS Baptists, gnosticism

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  • t_mether
    PS, Through that old cuss, I have attended 22 such Baptist-gnostic churches in Tennessee and Kentucky. Some are more Marcionite. A couple have replaced the
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 4, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      PS, Through that old cuss, I have attended 22 such Baptist-gnostic churches in Tennessee and Kentucky. Some are more Marcionite. A couple have replaced the Bible totally with Price's Antenicene version of the Bible. Those two are both in Kentucky around Marion where the whole town belongs to the church.

      --- On Wed, 8/4/10, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:


      From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
      Subject: [neoplatonism] Popular unrest and gnosticism/was Agora
      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 5:50 PM



      Dennis,

      I see we have much in common. Anyway, to put it back onto a neoplatonist line, I am also observing the intriguing twist of southerners, devout Baptists who have been taught they are the original Paulicians (and original church) buying into the idea that gnostic Christianity was the original one. My sense is it "jives" with their economic and social situation where the "powers that be" are hostile and alien. I know of one old tough cuss, Baptist taught the line above, whose church distrusts the Bible because it is a Catholic invention. I found this out at the local Tractor Supply where his old beat-up pickup had a copy, believe it or not!!!, of Han Jonas' The Gnostic Religion sitting on the seat with clutter, ammo, and bait. So I asked. Sure enough his Baptist church is 75% poor and unemployed to boot; they are now effectively gnostic Christians.

      I know most of the literature on gnosticism. But any comments? I still haven't figured out how Baptists ever came to the idea they were the original pre-Catholic Christians, called the Paulicians/Paulicans (no use trying to separate the two groups for them). I asked some fairly well-educated Baptists who don't believe the story but remember being taught it. Any recent studies, more recent than the 1990s, on the possible social and economic strata 2nd century gnosticism may reflect?

      --- On Wed, 8/4/10, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...> wrote:

      From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
      Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Agora
      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 12:38 PM



      > My class gets a t-shirt, btw, a mock up of Mt Rushmore with >Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, (its easy to get >five out of four). Oddly, enough young Amercians are so ignorant of >their past they point and say, "the founding fathers". Oddly, how in >their ignorance, they are right.
      > Â
      > LONG, Sigh........................................

      Well, yes, we are a long way from the 60's now - one of my problems is that I was a teenager in the late 60's and rather presumed that social improvement and enlightenment along with advancing technology were the norm, not that even then I was some sort of Pollyanna, but that in general things would get better, and more or less advance. Little did I realize that most my life would be spent in a period of nasty retrenchment of hateful values that apparently are constantly latent in this country, going back to at least the Mexican War and on through the robber barons and our first imperialist adventures such as subduing the poor Hawaiians, to mention only a few "highlights" in Zinn-like fashion - I would just point out that now several US Senators are seriously proposing the elimination of the 14th amendment. If anyone had even jokingly suggested that when I was a boy, the public uproar in response would have been career ending, and not too long before in
      the late 50's the last Civil War veterans had finally passed away, men who had fought and died for that cause. But now, apparently such niceties are fair game. I suppose next they will want to bring back child labor and debtors' prisons.

      Of course, we already do have the former making our goods in other countries, and people are now recently being incarcerated for not paying their credit card debt...

      But this is the Neoplatonism group, so I will not continue this, except to say your story about the T shirt is a good one, though sadly telling. (But Jefferson probably would not mind at all being mistaken for Pythagoras! The founders were all mostly Deists, and he was certainly no Christian, not by a long shot. Another inconvenient fact the modern parabolani types are trying hard to suppress.)

      Yeats already a long time ago summed it all up quite nicely. especially the last two lines:

      TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
      The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

      Dennis Clark
    • Bradley Skene
      Are you talking about the Christian Identity movement? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 4, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Are you talking about the Christian Identity movement?

        On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 6:04 PM, t_mether <t_mether@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > PS, Through that old cuss, I have attended 22 such Baptist-gnostic churches
        > in Tennessee and Kentucky. Some are more Marcionite. A couple have replaced
        > the Bible totally with Price's Antenicene version of the Bible. Those two
        > are both in Kentucky around Marion where the whole town belongs to the
        > church.
        >
        > --- On Wed, 8/4/10, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...<t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@... <t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
        > Subject: [neoplatonism] Popular unrest and gnosticism/was Agora
        > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 5:50 PM
        >
        > Dennis,
        >
        > I see we have much in common. Anyway, to put it back onto a neoplatonist
        > line, I am also observing the intriguing twist of southerners, devout
        > Baptists who have been taught they are the original Paulicians (and original
        > church) buying into the idea that gnostic Christianity was the original one.
        > My sense is it "jives" with their economic and social situation where the
        > "powers that be" are hostile and alien. I know of one old tough cuss,
        > Baptist taught the line above, whose church distrusts the Bible because it
        > is a Catholic invention. I found this out at the local Tractor Supply where
        > his old beat-up pickup had a copy, believe it or not!!!, of Han Jonas' The
        > Gnostic Religion sitting on the seat with clutter, ammo, and bait. So I
        > asked. Sure enough his Baptist church is 75% poor and unemployed to boot;
        > they are now effectively gnostic Christians.
        >
        > I know most of the literature on gnosticism. But any comments? I still
        > haven't figured out how Baptists ever came to the idea they were the
        > original pre-Catholic Christians, called the Paulicians/Paulicans (no use
        > trying to separate the two groups for them). I asked some fairly
        > well-educated Baptists who don't believe the story but remember being taught
        > it. Any recent studies, more recent than the 1990s, on the possible social
        > and economic strata 2nd century gnosticism may reflect?
        >
        > --- On Wed, 8/4/10, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...<vaeringjar%40yahoo.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@... <vaeringjar%40yahoo.com>>
        > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Agora
        > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 12:38 PM
        >
        > > My class gets a t-shirt, btw, a mock up of Mt Rushmore with >Pythagoras,
        > Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, (its easy to get >five out of four).
        > Oddly, enough young Amercians are so ignorant of >their past they point and
        > say, "the founding fathers". Oddly, how in >their ignorance, they are right.
        > > �
        > > LONG, Sigh........................................
        >
        > Well, yes, we are a long way from the 60's now - one of my problems is that
        > I was a teenager in the late 60's and rather presumed that social
        > improvement and enlightenment along with advancing technology were the norm,
        > not that even then I was some sort of Pollyanna, but that in general things
        > would get better, and more or less advance. Little did I realize that most
        > my life would be spent in a period of nasty retrenchment of hateful values
        > that apparently are constantly latent in this country, going back to at
        > least the Mexican War and on through the robber barons and our first
        > imperialist adventures such as subduing the poor Hawaiians, to mention only
        > a few "highlights" in Zinn-like fashion - I would just point out that now
        > several US Senators are seriously proposing the elimination of the 14th
        > amendment. If anyone had even jokingly suggested that when I was a boy, the
        > public uproar in response would have been career ending, and not too long
        > before in
        > the late 50's the last Civil War veterans had finally passed away, men who
        > had fought and died for that cause. But now, apparently such niceties are
        > fair game. I suppose next they will want to bring back child labor and
        > debtors' prisons.
        >
        > Of course, we already do have the former making our goods in other
        > countries, and people are now recently being incarcerated for not paying
        > their credit card debt...
        >
        > But this is the Neoplatonism group, so I will not continue this, except to
        > say your story about the T shirt is a good one, though sadly telling. (But
        > Jefferson probably would not mind at all being mistaken for Pythagoras! The
        > founders were all mostly Deists, and he was certainly no Christian, not by a
        > long shot. Another inconvenient fact the modern parabolani types are trying
        > hard to suppress.)
        >
        > Yeats already a long time ago summed it all up quite nicely. especially the
        > last two lines:
        >
        > TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
        > The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
        > Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        > Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        > The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
        > The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        > The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        > Are full of passionate intensity.
        >
        > Dennis Clark
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Mether
        I actually kind of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the Christian Identity movement. This is something else.   The Baptist story about
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 4, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
           
          The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have told me they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI movement.
           
          I am actually interested in whether traditional religious identifications are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom. Many of these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since before Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to realize the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me, "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in whether the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
           
          My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local and sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in Nashville, are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah" worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and Mandaean re-mix.
           
          But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian Identity.
           
          I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously expresses in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of humanity, and that, all humanity does this.
           
          So, in terms of that, this is something new.
           
          Thomas


          --- On Wed, 8/4/10, Bradley Skene <anebo10@...> wrote:


          From: Bradley Skene <anebo10@...>
          Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
          To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 6:57 PM


          Are you talking about the Christian Identity movement?

          On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 6:04 PM, t_mether <t_mether@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > PS, Through that old cuss, I have attended 22 such Baptist-gnostic churches
          > in Tennessee and Kentucky. Some are more Marcionite. A couple have replaced
          > the Bible totally with Price's Antenicene version of the Bible. Those two
          > are both in Kentucky around Marion where the whole town belongs to the
          > church.
          >
          > --- On Wed, 8/4/10, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...<t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@... <t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
          > Subject: [neoplatonism] Popular unrest and gnosticism/was Agora
          > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 5:50 PM
          >
          > Dennis,
          >
          > I see we have much in common. Anyway, to put it back onto a neoplatonist
          > line, I am also observing the intriguing twist of southerners, devout
          > Baptists who have been taught they are the original Paulicians (and original
          > church) buying into the idea that gnostic Christianity was the original one.
          > My sense is it "jives" with their economic and social situation where the
          > "powers that be" are hostile and alien. I know of one old tough cuss,
          > Baptist taught the line above, whose church distrusts the Bible because it
          > is a Catholic invention. I found this out at the local Tractor Supply where
          > his old beat-up pickup had a copy, believe it or not!!!, of Han Jonas' The
          > Gnostic Religion sitting on the seat with clutter, ammo, and bait. So I
          > asked. Sure enough his Baptist church is 75% poor and unemployed to boot;
          > they are now effectively gnostic Christians.
          >
          > I know most of the literature on gnosticism. But any comments? I still
          > haven't figured out how Baptists ever came to the idea they were the
          > original pre-Catholic Christians, called the Paulicians/Paulicans (no use
          > trying to separate the two groups for them). I asked some fairly
          > well-educated Baptists who don't believe the story but remember being taught
          > it. Any recent studies, more recent than the 1990s, on the possible social
          > and economic strata 2nd century gnosticism may reflect?
          >
          > --- On Wed, 8/4/10, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...<vaeringjar%40yahoo.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@... <vaeringjar%40yahoo.com>>
          > Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Agora
          > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 12:38 PM
          >
          > > My class gets a t-shirt, btw, a mock up of Mt Rushmore with >Pythagoras,
          > Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, (its easy to get >five out of four).
          > Oddly, enough young Amercians are so ignorant of >their past they point and
          > say, "the founding fathers". Oddly, how in >their ignorance, they are right.
          > > Â
          > > LONG, Sigh........................................
          >
          > Well, yes, we are a long way from the 60's now - one of my problems is that
          > I was a teenager in the late 60's and rather presumed that social
          > improvement and enlightenment along with advancing technology were the norm,
          > not that even then I was some sort of Pollyanna, but that in general things
          > would get better, and more or less advance. Little did I realize that most
          > my life would be spent in a period of nasty retrenchment of hateful values
          > that apparently are constantly latent in this country, going back to at
          > least the Mexican War and on through the robber barons and our first
          > imperialist adventures such as subduing the poor Hawaiians, to mention only
          > a few "highlights" in Zinn-like fashion - I would just point out that now
          > several US Senators are seriously proposing the elimination of the 14th
          > amendment. If anyone had even jokingly suggested that when I was a boy, the
          > public uproar in response would have been career ending, and not too long
          > before in
          > the late 50's the last Civil War veterans had finally passed away, men who
          > had fought and died for that cause. But now, apparently such niceties are
          > fair game. I suppose next they will want to bring back child labor and
          > debtors' prisons.
          >
          > Of course, we already do have the former making our goods in other
          > countries, and people are now recently being incarcerated for not paying
          > their credit card debt...
          >
          > But this is the Neoplatonism group, so I will not continue this, except to
          > say your story about the T shirt is a good one, though sadly telling. (But
          > Jefferson probably would not mind at all being mistaken for Pythagoras! The
          > founders were all mostly Deists, and he was certainly no Christian, not by a
          > long shot. Another inconvenient fact the modern parabolani types are trying
          > hard to suppress.)
          >
          > Yeats already a long time ago summed it all up quite nicely. especially the
          > last two lines:
          >
          > TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
          > The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
          > Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
          > Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
          > The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
          > The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
          > The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          > Are full of passionate intensity.
          >
          > Dennis Clark
          >

          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bradley Skene
          Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal education--whom I had
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 4, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
            a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
            education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland. When
            I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that one
            of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the church in
            Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
            Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
            did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who they
            were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
            possibly have a historical connection to any form of American Christianity,
            but he wasn't persuaded.

            I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic. Who
            would have guessed?

            Cheers,

            Bradley Skene.

            On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the
            > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
            >
            > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
            > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have told me
            > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
            > movement.
            >
            > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious identifications
            > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom. Many of
            > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since before
            > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to realize
            > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
            > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
            > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in whether
            > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
            >
            > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
            > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local and
            > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in Nashville,
            > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
            > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and Mandaean
            > re-mix.
            >
            > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
            > Identity.
            >
            > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously expresses
            > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
            > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of humanity,
            > and that, all humanity does this.
            >
            > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
            >
            > Thomas
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jake Stratton-Kent
            this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the identity of the real Paulicians for my benefit. I m familiar with a militant sect of that name
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the
              identity of the 'real' Paulicians for my benefit. I'm familiar with a
              militant sect of that name in Byzantine times, relocated from Armenia
              to Thrace, thence to Bosnia, is that they?

              thanks

              ALWays

              Jake

              On 5 August 2010 02:17, Bradley Skene <anebo10@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
              > a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
              > education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland. When
              > I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that one
              > of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the church in
              > Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
              > Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
              > did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who they
              > were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
              > possibly have a historical connection to any form of American Christianity,
              > but he wasn't persuaded.
              >
              > I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic. Who
              > would have guessed?
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Bradley Skene.
              >
              > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the
              > > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
              > >
              > > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
              > > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have told me
              > > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
              > > movement.
              > >
              > > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious identifications
              > > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom. Many of
              > > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since before
              > > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to realize
              > > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
              > > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
              > > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in whether
              > > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
              > >
              > > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
              > > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local and
              > > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in Nashville,
              > > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
              > > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and Mandaean
              > > re-mix.
              > >
              > > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
              > > Identity.
              > >
              > > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously expresses
              > > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
              > > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of humanity,
              > > and that, all humanity does this.
              > >
              > > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
              > >
              > > Thomas
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              --
              Jake

              http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
            • Thomas Mether
              Yes, that is one of the groups they refer to. They also claim they descend from Tertullian s groups. ... From: Jake Stratton-Kent
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, that is one of the groups they refer to. They also claim they descend from Tertullian's groups.

                --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:


                From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 4:21 AM


                this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the
                identity of the 'real' Paulicians for my benefit. I'm familiar with a
                militant sect of that name in Byzantine times, relocated from Armenia
                to Thrace, thence to Bosnia, is that they?

                thanks

                ALWays

                Jake

                On 5 August 2010 02:17, Bradley Skene <anebo10@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
                > a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
                > education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland. When
                > I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that one
                > of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the church in
                > Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
                > Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
                > did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who they
                > were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
                > possibly have a historical connection to any form of American Christianity,
                > but he wasn't persuaded.
                >
                > I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic. Who
                > would have guessed?
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Bradley Skene.
                >
                > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the
                > > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
                > >
                > > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
                > > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have told me
                > > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
                > > movement.
                > >
                > > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious identifications
                > > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom. Many of
                > > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since before
                > > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to realize
                > > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
                > > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
                > > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in whether
                > > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
                > >
                > > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
                > > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local and
                > > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in Nashville,
                > > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
                > > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and Mandaean
                > > re-mix.
                > >
                > > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
                > > Identity.
                > >
                > > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously expresses
                > > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
                > > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of humanity,
                > > and that, all humanity does this.
                > >
                > > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
                > >
                > > Thomas
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                --
                Jake

                http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/


                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas Mether
                Some churches have Conybeare s The Key. Here is a link I found to a website that tells pretty much the same story these local gnostic Baptists (and other
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Some churches have Conybeare's The Key. Here is a link I found to a website that tells pretty much the same story these local gnostic Baptists (and other Baptists grew up hearing) tell. There are some variations from this but this is the gist.
                   
                  http://www.reformedreader.org/history/ford/chapter08.htm
                   


                  --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:


                  From: Thomas Mether <t_mether@...>
                  Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                  To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 6:29 AM


                   



                  Yes, that is one of the groups they refer to. They also claim they descend from Tertullian's groups.

                  --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:

                  From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                  Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                  To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 4:21 AM

                  this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the
                  identity of the 'real' Paulicians for my benefit. I'm familiar with a
                  militant sect of that name in Byzantine times, relocated from Armenia
                  to Thrace, thence to Bosnia, is that they?

                  thanks

                  ALWays

                  Jake

                  On 5 August 2010 02:17, Bradley Skene <anebo10@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
                  > a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
                  > education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland. When
                  > I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that one
                  > of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the church in
                  > Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
                  > Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
                  > did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who they
                  > were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
                  > possibly have a historical connection to any form of American Christianity,
                  > but he wasn't persuaded.
                  >
                  > I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic. Who
                  > would have guessed?
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Bradley Skene.
                  >
                  > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking about the
                  > > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
                  > >
                  > > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
                  > > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have told me
                  > > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
                  > > movement.
                  > >
                  > > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious identifications
                  > > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom. Many of
                  > > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since before
                  > > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to realize
                  > > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
                  > > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
                  > > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in whether
                  > > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
                  > >
                  > > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
                  > > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local and
                  > > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in Nashville,
                  > > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
                  > > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and Mandaean
                  > > re-mix.
                  > >
                  > > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
                  > > Identity.
                  > >
                  > > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously expresses
                  > > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
                  > > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of humanity,
                  > > and that, all humanity does this.
                  > >
                  > > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
                  > >
                  > > Thomas
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Jake

                  http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dgallagher@aol.com
                  Yes, fascinating thread. One also might get a sense of the importance of oral tradition; an aspect of the development of ideas that does not necessarily
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, fascinating thread. One also might get a sense of the importance of
                    oral tradition; an aspect of the development of ideas that does not
                    necessarily appear in the historical record.

                    David Gallagher


                    In a message dated 8/5/2010 7:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    t_mether@... writes:




                    Some churches have Conybeare's The Key. Here is a link I found to a website
                    that tells pretty much the same story these local gnostic Baptists (and
                    other Baptists grew up hearing) tell. There are some variations from this but
                    this is the gist.

                    _http://www.reformedreader.org/history/ford/chapter08.htm_
                    (http://www.reformedreader.org/history/ford/chapter08.htm)


                    --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._
                    (mailto:t_mether@...) > wrote:

                    From: Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._ (mailto:t_mether@...) >
                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                    To: _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                    Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 6:29 AM



                    Yes, that is one of the groups they refer to. They also claim they descend
                    from Tertullian's groups.

                    --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Jake Stratton-Kent <_jakestrattonkent@..._
                    (mailto:jakestrattonkent@...) > wrote:

                    From: Jake Stratton-Kent <_jakestrattonkent@..._
                    (mailto:jakestrattonkent@...) >
                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                    To: _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                    Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 4:21 AM

                    this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the
                    identity of the 'real' Paulicians for my benefit. I'm familiar with a
                    militant sect of that name in Byzantine times, relocated from Armenia
                    to Thrace, thence to Bosnia, is that they?

                    thanks

                    ALWays

                    Jake

                    On 5 August 2010 02:17, Bradley Skene <_anebo10@..._
                    (mailto:anebo10@...) > wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
                    > a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
                    > education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland.
                    When
                    > I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that
                    one
                    > of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the
                    church in
                    > Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
                    > Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
                    > did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who
                    they
                    > were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
                    > possibly have a historical connection to any form of American
                    Christianity,
                    > but he wasn't persuaded.
                    >
                    > I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic.
                    Who
                    > would have guessed?
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Bradley Skene.
                    >
                    > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._
                    (mailto:t_mether@...) > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking
                    about the
                    > > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
                    > >
                    > > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
                    > > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have
                    told me
                    > > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
                    > > movement.
                    > >
                    > > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious
                    identifications
                    > > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom.
                    Many of
                    > > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since
                    before
                    > > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to
                    realize
                    > > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
                    > > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
                    > > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in
                    whether
                    > > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
                    > >
                    > > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
                    > > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local
                    and
                    > > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in
                    Nashville,
                    > > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
                    > > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and
                    Mandaean
                    > > re-mix.
                    > >
                    > > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
                    > > Identity.
                    > >
                    > > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously
                    expresses
                    > > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
                    > > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of
                    humanity,
                    > > and that, all humanity does this.
                    > >
                    > > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
                    > >
                    > > Thomas
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Jake

                    _http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/_
                    (http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/)

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Thomas Mether
                    Yes, I ve learned today this goes back for quite a while. The first edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on the Baptists repeats the same story. A
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, I've learned today this goes back for quite a while. The first edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on the Baptists repeats the same story. A friend over at Belmont University (Baptist -- and just won a battle to break free of the Southern Baptist Convention in the interests of academic freedom). Todays Baptists, the story goes, Paulicians, and thus, (this is the ideological one-upmanship-twist) not only older than the other Protestant groups coming out of the Reformation, but also, than even the imperial Church -- when the Baptists were all but wiped out by the empire. This is indeed the gist of that old article in the 1st edition of the EB.

                      --- On Thu, 8/5/10, dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...> wrote:


                      From: dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...>
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 10:02 AM


                       



                      Yes, fascinating thread. One also might get a sense of the importance of
                      oral tradition; an aspect of the development of ideas that does not
                      necessarily appear in the historical record.

                      David Gallagher


                      In a message dated 8/5/2010 7:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      t_mether@... writes:

                      Some churches have Conybeare's The Key. Here is a link I found to a website
                      that tells pretty much the same story these local gnostic Baptists (and
                      other Baptists grew up hearing) tell. There are some variations from this but
                      this is the gist.

                      _http://www.reformedreader.org/history/ford/chapter08.htm_
                      (http://www.reformedreader.org/history/ford/chapter08.htm)

                      --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._
                      (mailto:t_mether@...) > wrote:

                      From: Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._ (mailto:t_mether@...) >
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                      To: _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                      Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 6:29 AM

                      Yes, that is one of the groups they refer to. They also claim they descend
                      from Tertullian's groups.

                      --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Jake Stratton-Kent <_jakestrattonkent@..._
                      (mailto:jakestrattonkent@...) > wrote:

                      From: Jake Stratton-Kent <_jakestrattonkent@..._
                      (mailto:jakestrattonkent@...) >
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] PS Baptists, gnosticism
                      To: _neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                      Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 4:21 AM

                      this is a fascinating thread - could either of you clarify the
                      identity of the 'real' Paulicians for my benefit. I'm familiar with a
                      militant sect of that name in Byzantine times, relocated from Armenia
                      to Thrace, thence to Bosnia, is that they?

                      thanks

                      ALWays

                      Jake

                      On 5 August 2010 02:17, Bradley Skene <_anebo10@..._
                      (mailto:anebo10@...) > wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Now that I think about it longer, I used to know someone who was
                      > a fundamentalist Christian--highly intelligent but with no formal
                      > education--whom I had occasion one day to show my copy on Nestle-Aland.
                      When
                      > I was explaining to him what it was, I happened to mention to him that
                      one
                      > of its aims was to recreate the text used as the lectionary in the
                      church in
                      > Alexandia about the year 150. He 'had me' then, he insisted, because the
                      > Alexandrian bible was false, only the Antioch bible was true. And he
                      > did mention the Paulicians. I remember that because I had no idea who
                      they
                      > were. Once I found out I insisted they couldntt
                      > possibly have a historical connection to any form of American
                      Christianity,
                      > but he wasn't persuaded.
                      >
                      > I see a Google search turns up quite a bit of information on this topic.
                      Who
                      > would have guessed?
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > Bradley Skene.
                      >
                      > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Mether <_t_mether@..._
                      (mailto:t_mether@...) > wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I actually kind'of wondered that myself. But, no I am not talking
                      about the
                      > > Christian Identity movement. This is something else.
                      > >
                      > > The Baptist story about being the original Christians, as
                      > > Paulicians/Paulicans, well-educated Belmont and Baylor Baptists have
                      told me
                      > > they were taught in their childhood. They are not racists like the CI
                      > > movement.
                      > >
                      > > I am actually interested in whether traditional religious
                      identifications
                      > > are undergoing a radical shift from a ground-swell from the bottom.
                      Many of
                      > > these people have been hard-working but chronically unemployed since
                      before
                      > > Jimmy Carter. Their relatives who have joined their ranks seem to
                      realize
                      > > the system is meant for "not us folk, who are the people". A matriarch
                      > > grandmother over some congregations and its Baptist preacher, told me,
                      > > "ain't no worth voting for big business party 1 or 2. Times a'com'in
                      whether
                      > > the poor fight or retreat as righteous remnant". She is black.
                      > >
                      > > My sense that these gnostic Baptists are not racist and are something
                      > > different stems also from the fact they are also mixing with the local
                      and
                      > > sizable Kurdish population of which a significant number here, in
                      Nashville,
                      > > are "peacock worshippers" or "St John the Baptist the True Messiah"
                      > > worshippers; so far as I can make out, they are a Manichaean and
                      Mandaean
                      > > re-mix.
                      > >
                      > > But you raised a good question and concern. They are not Christian
                      > > Identity.
                      > >
                      > > I suggest that religious symbolism ambivalently and ambiguously
                      expresses
                      > > in one neat, tight, economically conservative but imaginatively rich
                      > > package, both the frustrations and hopes of a certain segment of
                      humanity,
                      > > and that, all humanity does this.
                      > >
                      > > So, in terms of that, this is something new.
                      > >
                      > > Thomas
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Jake

                      _http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/_
                      (http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/)

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











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