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Re: Query: Proclus and Dionysius Areopagite

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  • gregshaw58
    Thomas, For a very convincing and clear demonstration of Dionysius borrowing from Proclus, check an article (title?) by HD Saffrey in which he cites lengthy
    Message 1 of 63 , Jun 24, 2010
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      Thomas,

      For a very convincing and clear demonstration of Dionysius' borrowing from Proclus, check an article (title?) by HD Saffrey in which he cites lengthy passages from Dionysius that were taken directly from Proclus. This had been noticed already by Christian historians who concluded that Proclus had borrowed from Dionysius (since, after all, they assumed he was the companion of Paul in Acts)... hoisted on their own petard!

      Another Saffrey piece: H. D. Saffrey, "New Objective Links Between the Pseudo-Dionysius and Proclus," Neoplatonism and Christian Thought, ed. Dominic O'Meara (Norfolk, VA: International Society for Neoplatonic Studies, 1982), 64-75, 246-48.

      The title of the article I wrote is
      "Neoplatonic Theurgy and Dionysius the Areopagite"
      Journal of Early Christian Studies 7.4 (1999) 573-599

      but it does not focus on the influence of Proclus specifically.

      Greg

      I celebrate your happiness....a gift.









      --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:
      >
      > Greetings:
      >  
      > I hope we are all enjoying our summer. Its been upper 90s in Tennessee. My radishes and hot peppers are joyously happy (and so am I).
      >  
      > Anyway, I'm looking for recommendations on studies done on Proclus and Dionysius the Areopagite in terms of debt, similarities, or dissimilarities.
      >  
      > Thanks,
      > Thomas (cooking Thai tonight)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ted Hand
      Sounds interesting, thanks. Have you read Leen Spruit s book Species Intelligibilis? He has a Pico chpater. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 63 of 63 , Aug 8, 2010
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        Sounds interesting, thanks. Have you read Leen Spruit's book Species
        Intelligibilis? He has a Pico chpater.

        On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Ted,
        > I need to dig out some old notes. Some of my professors were actually
        > students of Cassirer and they all said he would do a close reading of a
        > text, expound on its sources, and explain the connections between the two.
        >
        > That said, there is one disparaging remark about Kant made by Cassirer. It
        > went along the lines of "not assembly-line sausage factory processing still
        > sausage processing" for Kant's cognitive theories. This was in reference to
        > the manifold is not chaotic and meaningless but overly and inexhaustively
        > meaningful -- blindingly so to intuition. Discourse, or symbolizing,
        > selectively articulates the super-concentrated intelligibility that is
        > blinding. So. there is not one symbolic form.
        >
        > In terms of Pico, they referred to his close reading of Pico dealing with
        > intelligible species. There is not a hierarchical process from senses to
        > intellect but an immediately intelligible species. How he would play with it
        > is if this immediately intelligble species was so concentrated in its
        > compacted richness - it had infinite discursive symbolizing possibilities.
        >
        > He claims that the dualism between the internal self-articulation of
        > knowledge as expressive act and an external world is false because the
        > (leibnitzian monad is self-enclosed but not cut-off -- the lifeworld is the
        > embodiment of monad).
        >
        > Intelligible species in Pico, on Cassirer's close reading reported by my
        > professors, is immediate but later articulations are selective. In the
        > process, I'm told, Cassirer was agreeing with Pico against Thomas Aquinas.
        >
        > Again, I'll dig up notes but does this make sense? Texts Cassirer used to
        > vis a vis Pico were Alexander of Aphrodisias and Simplicus De Anima, Pico's
        > Heptapus and Secundum Thomam and Secundum Alpharabium Conclusions. Hope that
        > helps for now.
        >
        > --- On Sun, 8/8/10, Ted Hand <ted.hand@... <ted.hand%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > From: Ted Hand <ted.hand@... <ted.hand%40gmail.com>>
        >
        > Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Query - Odd - Cassirer and Neoplatonism
        > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 2:16 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thomas,
        > thanks for that. I'm beginning to suspect that Cassirer learned more from
        > Pico than
        > I had guessed from reading the historiographical debunkers. Do you know
        > much
        >
        > about his take on Pico's psychology (which depends on an original and
        > difficult
        > take on metaphysics and ontology)?
        >
        > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...<t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Bob,
        > > The recently published 4th volume of Cassirer's Philosophy of Symbolic
        > > Forms, Bob, is the Metaphysics of Symbolic Forms. Reality is Semiosis
        > (which
        > > is what my paper and now article focussed on in Cassirer and Peirce) by
        > > which life (Cassirer re-works Lebensphilosophie) articulates itself into
        > > more free and progressively self-determining form. Spirit through human
        > > symbolizing not only articulates itself but its dynamically evolving
        > "ideas"
        > > (symbols). Cassirer's metaphysics says Being is not the object there
        > before
        > > human symbolizing begins and to which it must correspond but is that
        > being
        > > articulated in the symbolizing as the internal self-definition of Being.
        > > Symbolic forms as both "intuitive" and "expressive" are the media of
        > > Spirit's expressive self-knowledge as free self-expression. Take a
        > > mathematical analogy: there are no platonic forms to start with -- just
        > free
        > > creations of the human spirit to begin with but such constructive
        > > imaginative creations
        > > begin to develop a logic on their own. Symbolizing is a Bilddungsroman.
        > >
        > > --- On Sun, 8/8/10, Robert Wallace <bob@...<bob%40robertmwallace.com>
        > <bob%40robertmwallace.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > From: Robert Wallace <bob@... <bob%40robertmwallace.com><bob%
        > 40robertmwallace.com>>
        >
        > > Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Query - Odd - Cassirer and Neoplatonism
        > > To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com <neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com><neoplatonism%
        > 40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > > Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 1:24 PM
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear all,
        > >
        > > I don't know all of Cassirer's work, nor all the neo-Kantians, but I
        > > have the impression that they all lack an understanding of how the
        > > Platonic "ascent" creates a fuller reality. The soul is more real _as
        > > itself_ than the body, because it's more self-determining than the
        > > body. This is the idea that seems to be shared by the Platonic
        > > tradition in the widest sense, including Aristotle, Plotinus and
        > > Hegel. Lacking this idea, Natorp (Cassirer's teacher) thought of Plato
        > > as a thinker of mathematics and the synthetic a priori--which is
        > > certainly part of what Plato is about, but not, if I'm right, the
        > > central thing that he's about. (Please correct me if I'm
        > > oversimplifying Natorp.) Cassirer seems to have thought of Plato in
        > > the same way as Natorp, while broadening the notion of the a priori to
        > > include language, mythology, and so forth. He was not prepared to
        > > engage in metaphysics, as such.
        > >
        > > Lacking the central Platonic idea that I mentioned, Cassirer could
        > > hardly be a Neoplatonist, though his thinking might well overlap with
        > > Neoplatonism in other, less central ways.
        > >
        > > Best, Bob W.
        > >
        > > On Aug 7, 2010, at 6:52 PM, Ted Hand wrote:
        > >
        > > > I haven't done much work with Cassirer as a philosopher, but I can
        > > > recommend
        > > > some
        > > > historiographical studies that criticize his interpretation of Pico
        > > > della
        > > > Mirandola.
        > > >
        > > > see Craven, Pico della Mirandola: Symbol of his Age
        > > > and Copenhaver "De-Kanting Pico's Oration" (p. 305-308 in this)
        > > >
        > >
        > http://www.cmrs.ucla.edu/brian/research/finished_research/finished_articles/i24_dignity.pdf
        > > >
        > > > Copenhaver criticizes Cassirer for his mistaken view that Pico was a
        > > > "pre-Kantian"
        > > > It seems to me as though Cassirer is haunted by Renaissance
        > > > Neoplatonism but
        > > > doesn't necessarily fully understand it. Did any of the post-
        > > > idealists?
        > > >
        > > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Thomas Mether <t_mether@...<t_mether%40yahoo.com>
        > <t_mether%40yahoo.com>>
        >
        > >
        > > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > List,
        > > > >
        > > > > Since I have time to write (no longer an administrator over clinical
        > > > > trials) besides teach, I have a piece being revised for re-
        > > > submission on
        > > > > Cassirer and Peirce. In that piece, I argue that Cassirer is
        > > > correct in
        > > > > telling Heidegger at Davos he is not a neo-Kantian; Cassirer is
        > > > closer to
        > > > > being some kind of objective idealist.
        > > > >
        > > > > Okay here is the query: Cassirer is not a German idealist (while
        > > > > sympathetic to Hegel and more so to Schelling) because "necessity"
        > > > is a
        > > > > creative by-product of human imaginative freedom postulating some
        > > > rules from
        > > > > which, in terms of coherence, other things must follow. Looking at
        > > > his
        > > > > comments on Neoplatonism, I am now wondering about a second piece
        > > > - is
        > > > > Cassirer a neoplatonist?
        > > > >
        > > > > Comments or references? I have already started a literature search
        > > > and
        > > > > review.
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks,
        > > > >
        > > > > Thomas Mether
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > Robert Wallace
        > > website: www.robertmwallace.com (The God Within Us)
        > > email: bob@... <bob%40robertmwallace.com> <bob%
        > 40robertmwallace.com>
        >
        > > phone: 414-617-3914
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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