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Re: Clement of Alexandria Quotation/Themistius' On The Soul

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  • vaeringjar
    Thanks to all of you, especially Mrs Fauqier and Chase, for your very kind replies. There it was on my bookshelf, all along, in the Plutarch Loeb, Sandbach s
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 7, 2003
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      Thanks to all of you, especially Mrs Fauqier and Chase, for your very
      kind replies. There it was on my bookshelf, all along, in the
      Plutarch Loeb, Sandbach's fragments - mirabile visu. Since we are on
      the subject, here is a bit of the "Themistius" On the Soul,
      specifically the part I found so appealing:

      entautha d'agnoei [he psyche], plen hotan en toi teleutan ede
      genetai: tote de paschei pathos oion hoi teletais megalais
      katorgiazomenoi. dio kai to hrema toi hremati kai to ergon toi ergoi
      tou teleutan kai teleisthai proseoike. planai ta prota kai peridromai
      kopodeis kai dia skotous tines hypoptoi poreiai kai atelestoi, eita
      pro tou telous autou ta deina panta, phrike kai tromos kai idros kai
      thambos:ek de toutou phos ti thaumasion apentesen kai topoi katharoi
      kai leimones edexanto, phonas kai choreiras kai semnotetas akousmaton
      ieron kai phasmaton hagion echontes: en hais ho panteles ede kai
      memyemenos eleutheros gegonos kai aphetos periion estephanomenos
      orgiazei kai sunestin hosiois kai katharois andrasi...

      In this world it [the soul] is without knowledge, except when that
      time comes, it has an experience like that of men who are undergoing
      initiation in the great mysteries; and so the verbs "teleutan" (die)
      and "teleisthai" (be initiated), and the actions they denote, have a
      similarity. In the beginning there is straying and wandering, the
      weariness of running this way and that, and nervous journeys through
      darkness that reach no goal, and then immediately before the
      consummation every possible terror, shivering and trembling and
      sewating and amazement. But after this a marvelous light meets the
      wanderer, and open country and meadow lands welcome him; and in that
      place there are voices and dancing and the solemn majesty of sacred
      music and holy visions. And amidst these, he walks at large in new
      freedom, now perfect and fully initiated, celebrating the sacred
      rites, a garland upon his head, and converses with the pure and holy
      men..." (Sandbach, f.178, pp.316-319, Loeb Plutarch Moralia XV)

      For some reason this reminds me of Goethe's "Kennst du das Land wo
      die schoenen Citronen blumen", or maybe a number of passages in
      Bruckner where there is an intrusion into the music of some
      impression of great sublimity in an almost physical, spatial sense,
      as if one suddenly gains an astounding view when in the mountains,
      all at once, looking out on some great expanse in the distance.
      Perhaps that is as close as one can get physically to the notion of
      the inclination of the One into the natural world - ?

      (There a number of other interesting philosophical fragments from
      Plutarch here I hadn't noticed before, so thanks again for pointing
      this out, and to those who gave the exact reference in Thesleff for
      the Pythagorean quotation included by Clement.)

      Dennis Clark
      San Francisco

      --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Michael Chase <goya@u...> wrote:
      >
      > Le samedi, 6 sep 2003, à 00:48 Europe/Paris, vaeringjar a écrit :
      >

      > M.C. The extract may be found in Stobaeus, IV, 52b, 48, vol. 5, p.
      1087
      > ff. Hense. Hense, following a note in the Parisian manuscript A,
      > attributed it to Themistius (whom you rightly identify as the
      > 4th-century philosopher/rhetor), but others of no meaner stripe,
      like
      > Wyttenbach and Bernadakis, attribute it to Plutarch. Hence you'll
      find
      > it among Plutarch's fragments, no. 177ff. Sandbach. Wyttenbach
      first
      > published the fragment under Plutarch's name in 1772, and then
      again in
      > his edition of the Moralia (Oxford 1830), vol. 5, p. 722 ff.
      >
      > Best, Mike
      >
      > >
      > Michael Chase
      > (goya@v...)
      > CNRS UPR 76/
      > l'Annee Philologique
      > Villejuif-Paris
      > France
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Chase
      ... M.C. Pierre Boyancé used to recommend that if we want to know what the Mysteries were really like, we should study the metaphorical use made of them by
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 8, 2003
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        Le lundi, 8 sep 2003, à 03:44 Europe/Paris, vaeringjar a écrit :

        > Thanks to all of you, especially Mrs Fauqier and Chase, for your very
        > kind replies. There it was on my bookshelf, all along, in the
        > Plutarch Loeb, Sandbach's fragments - mirabile visu. Since we are on
        > the subject, here is a bit of the "Themistius" On the Soul,
        > specifically the part I found so appealing:
        >
        > entautha d'agnoei [he psyche], plen hotan en toi teleutan ede
        > genetai: tote de paschei pathos oion hoi teletais megalais
        > katorgiazomenoi. dio kai to hrema toi hremati kai to ergon toi ergoi
        > tou teleutan kai teleisthai proseoike. planai ta prota kai peridromai
        > kopodeis kai dia skotous tines hypoptoi poreiai kai atelestoi, eita
        > pro tou telous autou ta deina panta, phrike kai tromos kai idros kai
        > thambos:ek de toutou phos ti thaumasion apentesen kai topoi katharoi
        > kai leimones edexanto, phonas kai choreiras kai semnotetas akousmaton
        > ieron kai phasmaton hagion echontes: en hais ho panteles ede kai
        > memyemenos eleutheros gegonos kai aphetos periion estephanomenos
        > orgiazei kai sunestin hosiois kai katharois andrasi...
        >
        > In this world it [the soul] is without knowledge, except when that
        > time comes, it has an experience like that of men who are undergoing
        > initiation in the great mysteries; and so the verbs "teleutan" (die)
        > and "teleisthai" (be initiated), and the actions they denote, have a
        > similarity. In the beginning there is straying and wandering, the
        > weariness of running this way and that, and nervous journeys through
        > darkness that reach no goal, and then immediately before the
        > consummation every possible terror, shivering and trembling and
        > sewating and amazement. But after this a marvelous light meets the
        > wanderer, and open country and meadow lands welcome him; and in that
        > place there are voices and dancing and the solemn majesty of sacred
        > music and holy visions. And amidst these, he walks at large in new
        > freedom, now perfect and fully initiated, celebrating the sacred
        > rites, a garland upon his head, and converses with the pure and holy
        > men..." (Sandbach, f.178, pp.316-319, Loeb Plutarch Moralia XV)

        M.C. Pierre Boyancé used to recommend that if we want to know what the
        Mysteries were really like, we should study the metaphorical use made
        of them by the philosophers ; see for instance 'Sur les mystères
        d'Éleusis', Revue des Etudes Grecques 75 (1962).
        >
        > For some reason this reminds me of Goethe's "Kennst du das Land wo
        > die schoenen Citronen blumen", or maybe a number of passages in
        > Bruckner where there is an intrusion into the music of some
        > impression of great sublimity in an almost physical, spatial sense,
        > as if one suddenly gains an astounding view when in the mountains,
        > all at once, looking out on some great expanse in the distance.
        > Perhaps that is as close as one can get physically to the notion of
        > the inclination of the One into the natural world - ?

        M.C. I dunno about that, but Pierre Hadot has interestingly studied
        Greco-Roman spiritual exercises intended to reproduce, in everyday
        life, precisely that feeling of sublimity ; see for instance his
        Philosophy as a way of life (Oxford 1995), and in particular the essay
        on the View from above.

        As far as the mysteries are concerned, you might be interested in a
        passage from the Greek Magical Papyri, IV, 475-824, describing a
        philosophical-religious intiation in mystery terminology, complete with
        actors, puppets, and special effects galore (this is the text Dieterich
        studied in his book Eine Mithrasliturgie, although in fact it has
        nothing to do with Mithras). See H.D. Betz, The Greek magical papyri in
        translation, I, Chicago, 2nd ed. 1992, pp. 48 ff..
        >
        > Best, Mike.
        Michael Chase
        (goya@...)
        CNRS UPR 76/
        l'Annee Philologique
        Villejuif-Paris
        France


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bradley Skene
        Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming back around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely conencted to the
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 8, 2003
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          Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming back around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase another fragment of Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and recently indentified and published. I don't have the refernce to hand now, but if any one is interested I'll post it tonight.

          Michael Chase <goya@...> wrote:
          As far as the mysteries are concerned, you might be interested in a
          passage from the Greek Magical Papyri, IV, 475-824, describing a
          philosophical-religious intiation in mystery terminology, complete with
          actors, puppets, and special effects galore (this is the text Dieterich
          studied in his book Eine Mithrasliturgie, although in fact it has
          nothing to do with Mithras). See H.D. Betz, The Greek magical papyri in
          translation, I, Chicago, 2nd ed. 1992, pp. 48 ff..
          >
          > Best, Mike.
          Michael Chase
          (goya@...)
          CNRS UPR 76/
          l'Annee Philologique
          Villejuif-Paris
          France




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        • Al Billings
          ... around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase another fragment of Mithraic
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 8, 2003
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            > Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming back
            around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely
            conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase another fragment of
            Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and recently indentified and
            published. I don't have the refernce to hand now, but if any one is
            interested I'll post it tonight.


            I'd love to see the reference.

            Al
          • bradley Skene
            Brashear, W. M., A Mithraic Catechism from Egypt (Vienna: Adolf Holzhausens, 1992). The text is quite brief and appears on p. 18, with the
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 9, 2003
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              Brashear, W. M., A Mithraic Catechism from Egypt <P.Berol. 21196> (Vienna: Adolf Holzhausens, 1992).



              The text is quite brief and appears on p. 18, with the translation of the facing page.

              Here is the translation:

              recto

              �He will say: �Where�?�

              �...he is there at a loss?� Say:�

              Say: "Night.� He will say: �Where�?� �

              Say: "All things��

              He will say: "�You are called�?� Say: "Because of the summery [therin�n]��

              �having become�he ahs the fiery�

              He will say: "�did you inherit?� Say: �In a pit [bothros].� He will say: �Where is your�?�

              Say: "�in the�Leontineion.� He will say: �Will you gird?� The Hea[venly]

              �Say: ��death." He will say: "Having girded yourself,�?�

              ��this has four tassels.�

              verso

              �Very sharp and��

              ��much.� He will say: ��?�

              Say: ��through hot and cold.� He will say: ��?�

              Say: ��red�linen.� He will say: �Why?� Say:

              ��red border; the linen, however,��

              He will say: ��has been wrapped?� Say: �The savior�s��

              He will say: �Who is the father?� Say: �The one who begets everything�� He will say: �How�?�

              did you become a Leo?� Say: "By the�of the father.��

              Say: �Drink and Food.� He will say: ��?�

              ��in the seven��

              Several line are missing at both the top and bottom of the tiny papyrus fragment. As nearly as Brashear can make out, this is the script that a Mithraic initiate into the grade of Leo had to memorize and participate in as a ritual drama of initiation.


              Al Billings <boreas@...> wrote:> Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming back
              around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely
              conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase another fragment of
              Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and recently indentified and
              published. I don't have the refernce to hand now, but if any one is
              interested I'll post it tonight.


              I'd love to see the reference.

              Al


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            • Yvan Bubloz
              Do not leave us in the ignorance of this text! I think I m not the only one to be interested in the reference of the fragment you mentioned. Could you also
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 10, 2003
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                Do not leave us in the ignorance of this text! I think I'm not the only one
                to be interested in the reference of the fragment you mentioned. Could you
                also give us the reference of the works of Beck and Gordon about the
                Mithrasliturgie? Thank you.

                With best wishes,

                Yvan Bubloz

                ______________________________________________
                Yvan Bubloz
                Universite de Lausanne
                Faculte de theologie
                Section des sciences des religions


                -----Message d'origine-----
                De : bradley Skene [mailto:malkhos@...]
                Envoye : lundi, 8. septembre 2003 20:30
                A : neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                Objet : [neoplatonism] Mithras (was: Clement of Alexandria
                Quotation/Themistius' On The Soul)


                Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming back
                around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be closely
                conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase another fragment of
                Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and recently indentified and
                published. I don't have the refernce to hand now, but if any one is
                interested I'll post it tonight.

                Michael Chase <goya@...> wrote:
                As far as the mysteries are concerned, you might be interested in a
                passage from the Greek Magical Papyri, IV, 475-824, describing a
                philosophical-religious intiation in mystery terminology, complete with
                actors, puppets, and special effects galore (this is the text Dieterich
                studied in his book Eine Mithrasliturgie, although in fact it has
                nothing to do with Mithras). See H.D. Betz, The Greek magical papyri in
                translation, I, Chicago, 2nd ed. 1992, pp. 48 ff..
                >
                > Best, Mike.
                Michael Chase
                (goya@...)
                CNRS UPR 76/
                l'Annee Philologique
                Villejuif-Paris
                France




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              • vaeringjar
                Thanks, Msrs Chase and Skene et all again, especially for the new Mithras fragment from Egypt! I have been moving for the last month and way behind on this
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 25, 2003
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                  Thanks, Msrs Chase and Skene et all again, especially for the new
                  Mithras fragment from Egypt! I have been moving for the last month
                  and way behind on this list. Somewhere here in the many boxes of
                  books I have a copy of the sogenannte Mithrasliturige, and also (who
                  knows where) <Mithras Platonicus> by Turcan, which I have yet to read
                  and wonder if it might also shed some light on this same subject. If
                  I can dig out the Mithrasliturgie I will try to post it.

                  I was fortunate enoough when in grad school in Classics to study with
                  the late E. David Francis, who was much involved in the '70's in
                  Mithraic studies, and who actually organized a class for us in just
                  that. I suspect it was one of the few times such a course was ever
                  offerred anywhere in just Mithraism. Somewhere also are many notes
                  from his incredible lectures - he was probably the most gifted
                  lecturer I ever encountered in my academic career.

                  Dennis Clark
                  San Francisco



                  --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, bradley Skene <malkhos@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming
                  back around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be
                  closely conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase
                  another fragment of Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and
                  recently indentified and published. I don't have the refernce to hand
                  now, but if any one is interested I'll post it tonight.
                  >
                  > Michael Chase <goya@u...> wrote:
                  > As far as the mysteries are concerned, you might be
                  interested in a
                  > passage from the Greek Magical Papyri, IV, 475-824, describing a
                  > philosophical-religious intiation in mystery terminology, complete
                  with
                  > actors, puppets, and special effects galore (this is the text
                  Dieterich
                  > studied in his book Eine Mithrasliturgie, although in fact it has
                  > nothing to do with Mithras). See H.D. Betz, The Greek magical
                  papyri in
                  > translation, I, Chicago, 2nd ed. 1992, pp. 48 ff..
                  > >
                  > > Best, Mike.
                  > Michael Chase
                  > (goya@v...)
                  > CNRS UPR 76/
                  > l'Annee Philologique
                  > Villejuif-Paris
                  > France
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bradley Skene
                  Turcan s thesis is that our literary accounts of mithraism (esp. de antro) are highly unrelaiable becuase they have been so compeltely worked over to conform
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 26, 2003
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                    Turcan's thesis is that our literary accounts of mithraism (esp. de antro) are highly unrelaiable becuase they have been so compeltely worked over to conform to the doctrines of middle Platonism. However, I am so sure. If the idea of Merkelbach (and developed in detail in Becks artilce in JHS (1998)) that Mithriasm was the creation of a single 'religious genius' would not such a person also be immersed in the thought world of middle Platonism?

                    B. Skene

                    vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...> wrote:
                    Thanks, Msrs Chase and Skene et all again, especially for the new
                    Mithras fragment from Egypt! I have been moving for the last month
                    and way behind on this list. Somewhere here in the many boxes of
                    books I have a copy of the sogenannte Mithrasliturige, and also (who
                    knows where) <Mithras Platonicus> by Turcan, which I have yet to read
                    and wonder if it might also shed some light on this same subject. If
                    I can dig out the Mithrasliturgie I will try to post it.

                    I was fortunate enoough when in grad school in Classics to study with
                    the late E. David Francis, who was much involved in the '70's in
                    Mithraic studies, and who actually organized a class for us in just
                    that. I suspect it was one of the few times such a course was ever
                    offerred anywhere in just Mithraism. Somewhere also are many notes
                    from his incredible lectures - he was probably the most gifted
                    lecturer I ever encountered in my academic career.

                    Dennis Clark
                    San Francisco



                    --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, bradley Skene <malkhos@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Actually, Mithraic specialists including Beck and Gordon are coming
                    back around to the idea that the Mithrasliturgie might indeed be
                    closely conencted to the Mysteries of Mithras, in part becuase
                    another fragment of Mithraic ritual has been discovered in Egypt, and
                    recently indentified and published. I don't have the refernce to hand
                    now, but if any one is interested I'll post it tonight.
                    >
                    > Michael Chase <goya@u...> wrote:
                    > As far as the mysteries are concerned, you might be
                    interested in a
                    > passage from the Greek Magical Papyri, IV, 475-824, describing a
                    > philosophical-religious intiation in mystery terminology, complete
                    with
                    > actors, puppets, and special effects galore (this is the text
                    Dieterich
                    > studied in his book Eine Mithrasliturgie, although in fact it has
                    > nothing to do with Mithras). See H.D. Betz, The Greek magical
                    papyri in
                    > translation, I, Chicago, 2nd ed. 1992, pp. 48 ff..
                    > >
                    > > Best, Mike.
                    > Michael Chase
                    > (goya@v...)
                    > CNRS UPR 76/
                    > l'Annee Philologique
                    > Villejuif-Paris
                    > France
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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