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Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er

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  • leslie greenhill
    We have discussed Penelope weaving.  Anyone have any thoughts about the following passage from the myth of Er in the Republic?   And it so happened that it
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
      We have discussed Penelope weaving.  Anyone have any thoughts about the following passage from the myth of Er in the Republic?
       
      And it so happened that it fell to the soul of Odysseus to choose last of all.  The memory of his former sufferings had cured him of all ambition and he looked round for a long time to find the uneventful life of an ordinary man; at last he found it lying neglected by the others, and when he saw it he chose it with joy and said that had his lot fallen first he would have made the same choice. 
       
       
      Les

      P.O. Box 314
      Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
      Email: neoplatonist2000@...

      --- On Sat, 21/11/09, vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...> wrote:


      From: vaeringjar <vaeringjar@...>
      Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Penelope Analyzed
      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Saturday, 21 November, 2009, 5:48 AM


       





      --- In neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com, John Uebersax <john.uebersax@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Dennis.
      >
      > I had composed a post on Penelope but apparently didn't post it before, as I don't see it now. I'll try to reconstruct it:
      >
      > The following are some thoughts about interpretation of the Penelope "myth" from a Jungian viewpoint.
      >
      > Penelope: an anima figure; in a general sense playing a comparable role to Athena relative to Odysseus; hence a Wisdom (Sophia) figure.
      >

      I think you get 4 anima figures in a Jungian interpretation of the Odyssey - Circe, Calypso, Nausicaa, and then finally Penelope. You can see the progression, from the lowest, totally devouring monster anima figure in Circe, to the more advanced Calypso but who is still holding him back from full integration, etc., for 7 years, to the fresh young Nausicaa whom he meets essentially at what can be seen as his point of rebirth, in fact when he is literally naked washed up onshore, back finally among humankind, and the of course the re-marriage, the coniunctio oppositorum as you point out, with Penelope, the fully developed stage of the anima.

      Only then can he go plant his oar - so to speak!!!

      Dennis Clark









      __________________________________________________________________________________
      Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
      Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

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    • John Uebersax
      Hello Les, Excellent question. First, perhaps one shouldn t rule out that Plato placed this as a bit of humor or literary irony to briefly entertain the
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
        Hello Les,

        Excellent question.

        First, perhaps one shouldn't rule out that Plato placed this as a bit of humor or literary irony to briefly entertain the reader.

        Second, what this suggests to me is that the eventual success of Odysseus' journey does not exclusively symbolize some kind of world-detached contemplative union with the One. It *does* include that, but also something more: an new, ongoing psychologically 'redeemed' level of involvement in ones daily life. This would be something like the unitive state discussed by Evelyn Underhill in her writings on mysticism -- and have something to do with a new level of egolessness.

        This idea is well expressed for me in (one interpretation of) the Zen Buddhist proverb: "Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water." But afterward -- what a difference! The simple of joy of existence, of chopping wood and carrying water, is more evident.

        Third, if it doesn't distract from the main question, maybe it could be noted by way of context that Rep 10.620 lists choices by several people:

        Orpheus -> swan
        Thamyras -> nightingale
        Ajax -> lion
        Agamemnon -> eagle
        Atalanta -> athlete
        Epeus -> "a skilled or workmanlike woman"
        Thersites -> monkey
        Odysseus -> common man


        Shorey:
        http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plat.+Rep.+10.620a

        Jowett:
        http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=767&chapter=93816&layout=html&Itemid=27

        John Uebersax

        --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@...> wrote:

        From: leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@...>
        Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
        To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:51 AM

        We have discussed Penelope weaving.  Anyone have any thoughts about the following passage from the myth of Er in the Republic?

        And it so happened that it fell to the soul of Odysseus to choose last of all.  The memory of his former sufferings had cured him of all ambition and he looked round for a long time to find the uneventful life of an ordinary man; at last he found it lying neglected by the others, and when he saw it he chose it with joy and said that had his lot fallen first he would have made the same choice. 

         
      • vaeringjar
        ... If nothing else, it sounds to me rather typically ancient Greek, if I can generalize in that manner - like the choice of Achilles of a long boring life or
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > We have discussed Penelope weaving.  Anyone have any thoughts about the following passage from the myth of Er in the Republic?
          >  
          > And it so happened that it fell to the soul of Odysseus to choose last of all.  The memory of his former sufferings had cured him of all ambition and he looked round for a long time to find the uneventful life of an ordinary man; at last he found it lying neglected by the others, and when he saw it he chose it with joy and said that had his lot fallen first he would have made the same choice. 
          >  
          >  
          > Les
          >

          If nothing else, it sounds to me rather typically ancient Greek, if I can generalize in that manner - like the choice of Achilles of a long boring life or a short one full of greatness, or even the common notion that it was better to have lived not at all.

          There's a wonderfully written article by Michael Allen on Ficino's take on the myth of Er in this collection, mostly viewable online at Google Books - aside from the content, including a really nice retelling of the myth itself, his style I think in this article is really admirable. Scholarly writing doesn't have to be dry as dust:

          http://books.google.com/books?id=CX06dsbZ_JIC&pg=PA194&dq=ficino+moerbeke#PPP1

          "Life as a Dead Platonist" is the title - very clever too.

          Dennis Clark
        • leslie greenhill
          Thanks for the responses.  I have always been moved by the myth of Er.  It occurred to me that maybe Plato, too, must have wondered about the point of
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
            Thanks for the responses.  I have always been moved by the myth of Er.  It occurred to me that maybe Plato, too, must have wondered about the point of ambition.  The point of trying  ... of trying to get people to listen to ideas that mean nothing to them.  It's hard enough now.  But in Plato's time when communication was so limited compared to now, how did he manage to find interesting people to talk with?  H.D.P. Lee writes in one of his introductions to one of Plato's works that Plato was writing out from a mystical experience.  In the case of the myth of Er, (putting aside the Orphic aspects) for me, there is something different about its tone - there is a passion here that is different to the rest of the Republic.  As I have expressed before, I have Jungian interests.  So.  Say that Er is Plato.  What is he telling us about himself?  The myth says to me that by the time Plato has written the Republic he has had a lot of
            life experience.  How old would he have been?  Why did he choose Odysseus to want the life of an ordinary man and not someone else.?  Is that what Plato wanted too at the time he wrote the Republic?  Which brings me to this question.  If you had to choose one thing that Plato wrote that made you think Plato was great (one thing only) what would that thing be?
             
            Les 

            P.O. Box 314
            Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
            Email: neoplatonist2000@...

            --- On Wed, 2/12/09, John Uebersax <john.uebersax@...> wrote:


            From: John Uebersax <john.uebersax@...>
            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
            To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Wednesday, 2 December, 2009, 4:33 AM


             



            Hello Les,

            Excellent question.

            First, perhaps one shouldn't rule out that Plato placed this as a bit of humor or literary irony to briefly entertain the reader.

            Second, what this suggests to me is that the eventual success of Odysseus' journey does not exclusively symbolize some kind of world-detached contemplative union with the One. It *does* include that, but also something more: an new, ongoing psychologically 'redeemed' level of involvement in ones daily life. This would be something like the unitive state discussed by Evelyn Underhill in her writings on mysticism -- and have something to do with a new level of egolessness.

            This idea is well expressed for me in (one interpretation of) the Zen Buddhist proverb: "Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water." But afterward -- what a difference! The simple of joy of existence, of chopping wood and carrying water, is more evident.

            Third, if it doesn't distract from the main question, maybe it could be noted by way of context that Rep 10.620 lists choices by several people:

            Orpheus -> swan
            Thamyras -> nightingale
            Ajax -> lion
            Agamemnon -> eagle
            Atalanta -> athlete
            Epeus -> "a skilled or workmanlike woman"
            Thersites -> monkey
            Odysseus -> common man

            Shorey:
            http://www.perseus tufts.edu/ cgi-bin/ptext? lookup=Plat. +Rep.+10. 620a

            Jowett:
            http://oll.libertyf und.org/? option=com_ staticxt& staticfile= show.php% 3Ftitle=767& chapter=93816& layout=html& Itemid=27

            John Uebersax

            --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
            To: neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:51 AM

            We have discussed Penelope weaving.  Anyone have any thoughts about the following passage from the myth of Er in the Republic?

            And it so happened that it fell to the soul of Odysseus to choose last of all.  The memory of his former sufferings had cured him of all ambition and he looked round for a long time to find the uneventful life of an ordinary man; at last he found it lying neglected by the others, and when he saw it he chose it with joy and said that had his lot fallen first he would have made the same choice. 

             








            __________________________________________________________________________________
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          • dgallagher@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/2/2009 1:20:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, neoplatonist2000@yahoo.com writes: If you had to choose one thing that Plato wrote that made
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 2, 2009
              In a message dated 12/2/2009 1:20:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              neoplatonist2000@... writes:

              If you had to choose one thing that Plato wrote that made you think Plato
              was great (one thing only) what would that thing be?
              Republic, VI, 507-511. Related thereto, Slaveva-Griffin's recent book,
              Plotinus on Number, is a brilliant piece of scholarship.

              Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er, all paths 'trace' to a common source;
              hence, Plotinus' frequent reference to circle and sphere. The life of a
              'common' man suggests realization of the one intelligible 'life' that is common
              to (or unifies) the many. Slaveva-Griffin's exegesis of apostasis in The
              Enneads is especially helpful and can be effectively applied to enhance one's
              penetration of Rep, VI, 507-511.

              David



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Uebersax
              Les -- again you raise excellent questions about what motivated Plato, whether he identified with Odysseus, how did he relate to his own talent, ambition, etc.
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 2, 2009
                Les -- again you raise excellent questions about what motivated Plato, whether he identified with Odysseus, how did he relate to his own talent, ambition, etc.

                Certainly the Er myth stands out prominently from the rest of the Republic -- at least in style, though one would hope there is an important thematic connection to the rest of the work.

                Dennis mentioned (in alluding to the Michael Allen article) the take of Marsilio Ficino on the Er myth. Ficino resisted the view that Plato took his references to reincarnation -- including the Er myth -- literally. That would mean reincarnation would have to be understood allegorically. A possible view is that reincarnation symbolizes cyclical patterns of ego states -- for example, from elevated noetic states back to worldly attachments to body and passions.

                The Republic can be read at one level as a study on self-governance: how does the person or the ego organize and govern the 'polity of the soul'? An allegorical reading of the Er myth would be a very suitable close to this study if it described cycles and patterns of ego states.

                The Jungian, Edward Edinger, whom I mentioned before, wrote about cyclical patterns of ego development vis-a-vis the Self. He explained the ego as varying between more and less orientation to the Self (i.e., towards or away from 'individuation')

                John Uebersax
              • leslie greenhill
                Thanks John and David for your thoughtful comments.  Jung takes up the issue of Reincarnation in Memories, Dreams, Reflections .  I have not been able to
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 2, 2009
                  Thanks John and David for your thoughtful comments.  Jung takes up the issue of Reincarnation in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections".  I have not been able to connect with the issue because of some ideas about Time, itself, that have formed in my mind since I took up Jungian studies years ago.  Certain synchronistic experiences at that time I found challenging.  So, back to the myth of Er.  I am, because of its intensity, inclined to think it has some basis in some kind of dream experience.  Possibly worked on through active imagination and amplified.  What would Plato's dreams have been like as he neared the end of writing the Republic?  And when he wrote about geometry making it easier for one to see the Form of the Good, (Rep. 526), what had he seen or done to write such a thing?  Perhaps I can give some kind of example.  Picture the pentagram only from the aspect of its outline.  Eliminate the interior pentagon.  Most people only
                  see the number "five".  Look more closely.  In such a pentagram there are only two interior angles.  One is 36 degrees, the other is 252 degrees.  Now 252 is 7 times 36.  Seven, a number much connected with mysticism, is just as much a part of the make up of the pentagram as five is.  Thirty-six, too, is interesting.  It's six squared.  Plutarch wrote that the Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the world. 
                   
                  Les 
                   
                   
                   
                  P.O. Box 314
                  Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                  Email: neoplatonist2000@...

                  --- On Thu, 3/12/09, John Uebersax <john.uebersax@...> wrote:


                  From: John Uebersax <john.uebersax@...>
                  Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                  To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Thursday, 3 December, 2009, 3:38 AM


                   



                  Les -- again you raise excellent questions about what motivated Plato, whether he identified with Odysseus, how did he relate to his own talent, ambition, etc.

                  Certainly the Er myth stands out prominently from the rest of the Republic -- at least in style, though one would hope there is an important thematic connection to the rest of the work.

                  Dennis mentioned (in alluding to the Michael Allen article) the take of Marsilio Ficino on the Er myth. Ficino resisted the view that Plato took his references to reincarnation -- including the Er myth -- literally. That would mean reincarnation would have to be understood allegorically. A possible view is that reincarnation symbolizes cyclical patterns of ego states -- for example, from elevated noetic states back to worldly attachments to body and passions.

                  The Republic can be read at one level as a study on self-governance: how does the person or the ego organize and govern the 'polity of the soul'? An allegorical reading of the Er myth would be a very suitable close to this study if it described cycles and patterns of ego states.

                  The Jungian, Edward Edinger, whom I mentioned before, wrote about cyclical patterns of ego development vis-a-vis the Self. He explained the ego as varying between more and less orientation to the Self (i.e., towards or away from 'individuation' )

                  John Uebersax








                  __________________________________________________________________________________
                  Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                  Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dgallagher@aol.com
                  Les, Briefly, if the substance of our experience is Mind and Plato was so self-realized, then might he have argued that there s no real distinction between
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 4, 2009
                    Les,

                    Briefly, if the substance of our experience is Mind and Plato was so
                    self-realized, then might he have argued that there's no 'real' distinction
                    between dream and wakened states?

                    Monadic number reflects the trace of substantial number, in the sense of
                    images reflected in water; thus, the Rep 526 reference.

                    Re: pentagon, the 5-6 relationship is more visually apparent when
                    considering the internal structure of a dodecahedron; 5 interpenetrating
                    hexahedrons, the vertices of the hexahedrons locating the vertices of the
                    dodecahedron. It's easily constructed using Zome Tools, although difficult to see
                    unless you paint the struts forming the cubes different colors. Alternatively,
                    create a dodecahedron with card stock. Draw pentagrams on each face using
                    5 different colors for each line. If the colors are correctly coordinated,
                    you'll clearly see the edges of each distinct cube by rotating the solid.

                    The 5-6 relationship is also evident two-dimensionally by overlaying 3
                    vertices of 2 pentagons to form a hexagon. The construction fits perfectly
                    within the vesica piscis when you divide the radius of the circles as
                    described in Rep 509e, noting that the only possible division of a line so
                    specified yields the Phi Ratio.

                    The foregoing demonstrates the sensible emergence of roots, 2, 3, and 5.
                    Perhaps your comments indicate the presence of root 7 as well. The fact
                    that each of the roots is irrational might further suggest something subtly
                    implicate in the power of dialectic.

                    David


                    In a message dated 12/2/2009 11:48:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    neoplatonist2000@... writes:




                    Thanks John and David for your thoughtful comments. Jung takes up the
                    issue of Reincarnation in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" I have not been
                    able to connect with the issue because of some ideas about Time, itself, that
                    have formed in my mind since I took up Jungian studies years ago. Certain
                    synchronistic experiences at that time I found challenging. So, back to
                    the myth of Er. I am, because of its intensity, inclined to think it has
                    some basis in some kind of dream experience. Possibly worked on through
                    active imagination and amplified. What would Plato's dreams have been like as
                    he neared the end of writing the Republic? And when he wrote about
                    geometry <WBR>making it easie one to see the Form of the Good, (Rep. 526), what
                    had he seen or done to write such a thing? Perhaps I can give some kind of
                    example. Picture the pentagram only from the aspect of its outline.
                    Eliminate the interior pentagon. Most people only
                    see the number "five". Look more closely. In such a pentagram there are
                    only two interior angles. One is 36 degrees, the other is 252 degrees.
                    Now 252 is 7 times 36. Seven, a number much connected with mysticism, is
                    just as much a part of the make up of the pentagram as five is. Thirty-six,
                    too, is interesting. It's six squared. Plutarch wrote that the
                    Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the world.

                    Les



                    P.O. Box 314
                    Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                    Email: _neoplatonist2000@neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonist2000@...)

                    --- On Thu, 3/12/09, John Uebersax <_john.uebersax@..._
                    (mailto:john.uebersax@...) > wrote:

                    From: John Uebersax <_john.uebersax@..._
                    (mailto:john.uebersax@...) >
                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                    To: _neoplatonism@neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                    Received: Thursday, 3 December, 2009, 3:38 AM



                    Les -- again you raise excellent questions about what motivated Plato,
                    whether he identified with Odysseus, how did he relate to his own talent,
                    ambition, etc.

                    Certainly the Er myth stands out prominently from the rest of the Republic
                    -- at least in style, though one would hope there is an important thematic
                    connection to the rest of the work.

                    Dennis mentioned (in alluding to the Michael Allen article) the take of
                    Marsilio Ficino on the Er myth. Ficino resisted the view that Plato took his
                    references to reincarnation -- including the Er myth -- literally. That
                    would mean reincarnation would have to be understood allegorically. A possible
                    view is that reincarnation symbolizes cyclical patterns of ego states --
                    for example, from elevated noetic states back to worldly attachments to body
                    and passions.

                    The Republic can be read at one level as a study on self-governance: how
                    does the person or the ego organize and govern the 'polity of the soul'? An
                    allegorical reading of the Er myth would be a very suitable close to this
                    study if it described cycles and patterns of ego states.

                    The Jungian, Edward Edinger, whom I mentioned before, wrote about cyclical
                    patterns of ego development vis-a-vis the Self. He explained the ego as
                    varying between more and less orientation to the Self (i.e., towards or away
                    from 'individuation' )

                    John Uebersax

                    __________________________________________________________
                    Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                    Enter now: _http://au.docs.http://au.http://au.do_
                    (http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/)

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • leslie greenhill
                    David   Most useful response.  Unfortunately, I m not skilled in 3D drawing on a computer to undertake your diagram.  I have done a lot of work with the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 4, 2009
                      David
                       
                      Most useful response.  Unfortunately, I'm not skilled in 3D drawing on a computer to undertake your diagram.  I have done a lot of work with the Platonic solids, though, and found much interesting material.  My approach has been - how did people in antiquity deal with the solids and what did they see without using advanced mathematics?  It is surprising what can be found. 
                       
                      Back in 2002, I presented a paper in Brussels which contended that Plato used a pentagram to design Atlantis.  In that paper I also suggested that Plato understood the concept that a circle contained 360 degrees.  This caused a negative response from a few people.  There was something in that paper that should have made those people a little more cautious about their negativity.  But they missed it.  Just recently, amongst a number of other findings that have come to light, I am now concluding a work that, amongst other things, will demonstrate clearly:
                       
                      *  Plato did undertand the concept of angles;
                      *  that his design for Atlantis is not new - it appears in an ingenious form
                      in an earlier work by another writer.
                       
                      On your remark about ...  "if the substance of our experience is Mind and Plato was so
                      self-realized, then might he have argued that there's no 'real' distinction
                      between dream and wakened states?"
                       
                      Probably.  But maybe that opens a discussion on the nature of consciousness and the nature of reality.  I must say, that since I became interested in geometry some years back, my ideas about number have changed completely.  Carl Jung, Marie Louise von Franz and others with Jungian leanings, have expressed much interest in this area.  Unfortunately, many classicists are not comfortable dealing with number and geometry so it's not discussed much.  Another neglected area is that of metrology.  Let me give an example of that neglect.  The Roman foot was divided into 16 digit divisions and 12 divisions called "unciae".  The ratio of uncia to digit is 4:3, a ratio found in a 3:4:5 triangle.  I know why that happens.  But I cannot find in Australia a single classicist who cares.  They should read or re-read what Plutarch has to say about the 3:4:5 triangle.  In the case of the Roman stade, it contains 625 Roman feet.  The number 625 is 5 x 5 x 5
                      x 5.  Interesting that, given we are discussing the pentagon, pentagram and the dodecahedron.   
                       
                      Back to the dodecahedron and its marvellous properties.  Around each of the 20 vertexes there are three angles, each angle containing 108 degrees, a total of 324 degrees.  The number 324 is a square number:  18 x 18 = 324. 
                       
                      In the case of the icosahedron with its 20 faces, each face contains 180 degrees, a total of 3600 degrees.  The number 3600 is 60 squared, that is 60 x 60.  Nature certainly presents us with some interesting material to work with.   
                       
                      Cheers
                      Les
                       
                      P.S.  I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.
                       

                      P.O. Box 314
                      Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                      Email: neoplatonist2000@...

                      --- On Sat, 5/12/09, dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...> wrote:


                      From: dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...>
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                      To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Saturday, 5 December, 2009, 2:49 AM


                       



                      Les,

                      Briefly, if the substance of our experience is Mind and Plato was so
                      self-realized, then might he have argued that there's no 'real' distinction
                      between dream and wakened states?

                      Monadic number reflects the trace of substantial number, in the sense of
                      images reflected in water; thus, the Rep 526 reference.

                      Re: pentagon, the 5-6 relationship is more visually apparent when
                      considering the internal structure of a dodecahedron; 5 interpenetrating
                      hexahedrons, the vertices of the hexahedrons locating the vertices of the
                      dodecahedron. It's easily constructed using Zome Tools, although difficult to see
                      unless you paint the struts forming the cubes different colors. Alternatively,
                      create a dodecahedron with card stock. Draw pentagrams on each face using
                      5 different colors for each line. If the colors are correctly coordinated,
                      you'll clearly see the edges of each distinct cube by rotating the solid.

                      The 5-6 relationship is also evident two-dimensionally by overlaying 3
                      vertices of 2 pentagons to form a hexagon. The construction fits perfectly
                      within the vesica piscis when you divide the radius of the circles as
                      described in Rep 509e, noting that the only possible division of a line so
                      specified yields the Phi Ratio.

                      The foregoing demonstrates the sensible emergence of roots, 2, 3, and 5.
                      Perhaps your comments indicate the presence of root 7 as well. The fact
                      that each of the roots is irrational might further suggest something subtly
                      implicate in the power of dialectic.

                      David


                      In a message dated 12/2/2009 11:48:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                      Thanks John and David for your thoughtful comments. Jung takes up the
                      issue of Reincarnation in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" I have not been
                      able to connect with the issue because of some ideas about Time, itself, that
                      have formed in my mind since I took up Jungian studies years ago. Certain
                      synchronistic experiences at that time I found challenging. So, back to
                      the myth of Er. I am, because of its intensity, inclined to think it has
                      some basis in some kind of dream experience. Possibly worked on through
                      active imagination and amplified. What would Plato's dreams have been like as
                      he neared the end of writing the Republic? And when he wrote about
                      geometry <WBR>making it easie one to see the Form of the Good, (Rep. 526), what
                      had he seen or done to write such a thing? Perhaps I can give some kind of
                      example. Picture the pentagram only from the aspect of its outline.
                      Eliminate the interior pentagon. Most people only
                      see the number "five". Look more closely. In such a pentagram there are
                      only two interior angles. One is 36 degrees, the other is 252 degrees.
                      Now 252 is 7 times 36. Seven, a number much connected with mysticism, is
                      just as much a part of the make up of the pentagram as five is. Thirty-six,
                      too, is interesting. It's six squared. Plutarch wrote that the
                      Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the world.

                      Les

                      P.O. Box 314
                      Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                      Email: _neoplatonist2000@ neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com)

                      --- On Thu, 3/12/09, John Uebersax <_john.uebersax@ john.uebe_
                      (mailto:john.uebersax@ yahoo.com) > wrote:

                      From: John Uebersax <_john.uebersax@ john.uebe_
                      (mailto:john.uebersax@ yahoo.com) >
                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                      To: _neoplatonism@ neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com)
                      Received: Thursday, 3 December, 2009, 3:38 AM

                      Les -- again you raise excellent questions about what motivated Plato,
                      whether he identified with Odysseus, how did he relate to his own talent,
                      ambition, etc.

                      Certainly the Er myth stands out prominently from the rest of the Republic
                      -- at least in style, though one would hope there is an important thematic
                      connection to the rest of the work.

                      Dennis mentioned (in alluding to the Michael Allen article) the take of
                      Marsilio Ficino on the Er myth. Ficino resisted the view that Plato took his
                      references to reincarnation -- including the Er myth -- literally. That
                      would mean reincarnation would have to be understood allegorically. A possible
                      view is that reincarnation symbolizes cyclical patterns of ego states --
                      for example, from elevated noetic states back to worldly attachments to body
                      and passions.

                      The Republic can be read at one level as a study on self-governance: how
                      does the person or the ego organize and govern the 'polity of the soul'? An
                      allegorical reading of the Er myth would be a very suitable close to this
                      study if it described cycles and patterns of ego states.

                      The Jungian, Edward Edinger, whom I mentioned before, wrote about cyclical
                      patterns of ego development vis-a-vis the Self. He explained the ego as
                      varying between more and less orientation to the Self (i.e., towards or away
                      from 'individuation' )

                      John Uebersax

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                      Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                      Enter now: _http://au.docs. http://au. http://au. do_
                      (http://au.docs. yahoo.com/ homepageset/)

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                      __________________________________________________________________________________
                      Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                      Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • pyth7
                      ... I believe there are only thirty-six ways that all twenty vertexes of a dodecahedron (or faces of an icosahedraon if you like) can be sequentially connected
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 5, 2009
                        --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >  Thirty-six, too, is interesting. It's six squared. Plutarch >wrote >that the Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the
                        >world. 
                        >
                        > Les 

                        I believe there are only thirty-six ways that all twenty vertexes of a dodecahedron (or faces of an icosahedraon if you like) can be sequentially connected so that each vertex/face is crossed only once.
                        These can be subdivided into eighteen left and right-handed opposites, which can then be subclassed into six variations of one basic sequence and twelve other distinct sequences.

                        Russ Kinter
                      • leslie greenhill
                        Thanks for that Russ.  Do you know of any literature that contains that information? Note, too, that a yard contains 36 inches.   Les   P.O. Box 314
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 6, 2009
                          Thanks for that Russ.  Do you know of any literature that contains that information?
                          Note, too, that a yard contains 36 inches.
                           
                          Les
                           

                          P.O. Box 314
                          Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                          Email: neoplatonist2000@...

                          --- On Sun, 6/12/09, pyth7 <pyth7@...> wrote:


                          From: pyth7 <pyth7@...>
                          Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                          To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Sunday, 6 December, 2009, 11:34 AM


                           





                          --- In neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >  Thirty-six, too, is interesting. It's six squared. Plutarch >wrote >that the Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the
                          >world. 
                          >
                          > Les 

                          I believe there are only thirty-six ways that all twenty vertexes of a dodecahedron (or faces of an icosahedraon if you like) can be sequentially connected so that each vertex/face is crossed only once.
                          These can be subdivided into eighteen left and right-handed opposites, which can then be subclassed into six variations of one basic sequence and twelve other distinct sequences.

                          Russ Kinter









                          __________________________________________________________________________________
                          Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                          Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Russ Kinter
                          Hi Les, ... No, it’s entirely my own findings based on studying wire models with color-coded strings and 3D computer models for entirely too long. That’s
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 6, 2009
                            Hi Les,
                            You wrote:
                            >Do you know of any literature that contains that information?
                            No, it’s entirely my own findings based on studying wire models with
                            color-coded strings and 3D computer models
                            for entirely too long.
                            That’s why I prefaced the message with “I believe”, because I could be
                            wrong.
                            The following meager links are strictly amateur hour studies and perhaps
                            off-topic if not viewed in the spirit of Pythagoras or rather
                            Neo-Pythagoreanism:

                            http://www.sevenemeraldtablets.net/Dodecahedron-Sequential-Vertex-Studies/Do
                            decahedron_Vertex_Sequences.html

                            Interactive 3D VRML models that require a VRML browser or plug-in:

                            http://www.sevenemeraldtablets.net/Dodecahedron-Sequential-Vertex-Studies/Se
                            quential_Vertex_Connections3_2.wrl

                            http://www.sevenemeraldtablets.net/Dodecahedron-Sequential-Vertex-Studies/Se
                            quential_Vertex_Connections4.wrl


                            Each of the thirteen models has a set of controls to move, revolve, hide
                            ect.

                            Thanks,
                            Russ Kinter





                            _____

                            From: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of leslie greenhill
                            Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 6:30 PM
                            To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er


                            Thanks for that Russ. Do you know of any literature that contains that
                            information?
                            Note, too, that a yard contains 36 inches.

                            Les


                            P.O. Box 314
                            Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                            Email: neoplatonist2000@ <mailto:neoplatonist2000%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com

                            --- On Sun, 6/12/09, pyth7 <pyth7@verizon. <mailto:pyth7%40verizon.net> net>
                            wrote:

                            From: pyth7 <pyth7@verizon. <mailto:pyth7%40verizon.net> net>
                            Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                            To: neoplatonism@ <mailto:neoplatonism%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Sunday, 6 December, 2009, 11:34 AM



                            --- In neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com, leslie greenhill <neoplatonist2000@
                            ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thirty-six, too, is interesting. It's six squared. Plutarch >wrote >that
                            the Pythagoreans thought the number 36 represented the
                            >world.Â
                            >
                            > LesÂ

                            I believe there are only thirty-six ways that all twenty vertexes of a
                            dodecahedron (or faces of an icosahedraon if you like) can be sequentially
                            connected so that each vertex/face is crossed only once.
                            These can be subdivided into eighteen left and right-handed opposites, which
                            can then be subclassed into six variations of one basic sequence and twelve
                            other distinct sequences.

                            Russ Kinter

                            __________________________________________________________
                            Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                            Enter now: http://au.docs <http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/>
                            yahoo.com/homepageset/

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tim Addey
                            In Taylor s 1812 introduction to his translation of the six books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato he says I have added a seventh book in order to render
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                              In Taylor's 1812 introduction to his translation of the six books of
                              Proclus on the Theology of Plato he says "I have added a seventh book in
                              order to render the work complete; for without the development of the
                              mundane Gods, and the more excellent genera their perpetual attendants,
                              it would obviously be incomplete. From the catalogue of the manuscripts
                              in the late French King's library, it is evident that Proclus had
                              written a seventh book as some chapters of it are there said to be
                              extant in that library. These I have endeavoured, but without success,
                              to obtain." He adds as a footnote, "Proclus at the end of the first
                              book of this work says, 'that divine names will be accurately discussed
                              by him, when he comes to speak of partial powers.' This, however, is
                              not done by him in any one of the six books that are extant; which shows
                              that another book is wanting."

                              I know that Taylor's supposition that there was once a seventh book is
                              now generally considered to be wrong, but I would be interested to know
                              if anyone has followed up the "catalogue of manuscripts" and a possible
                              entry in it pointing to Proclus and a possible seventh book. Does the
                              catalogue of Louis XVI (I assume) still exist?

                              Alternatively, is there now clear evidence that the six books are
                              actually the complete work?

                              Tim



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John Dillon
                              ... Now that would be an interesting subject of investigation, Tim. TT was doubtless dependent on rumours, but still.. It is fairly certain that Proclus
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > In Taylor's 1812 introduction to his translation of the six books of
                                > Proclus on the Theology of Plato he says "I have added a seventh book in
                                > order to render the work complete; for without the development of the
                                > mundane Gods, and the more excellent genera their perpetual attendants,
                                > it would obviously be incomplete. From the catalogue of the manuscripts
                                > in the late French King's library, it is evident that Proclus had
                                > written a seventh book as some chapters of it are there said to be
                                > extant in that library. These I have endeavoured, but without success,
                                > to obtain." He adds as a footnote, "Proclus at the end of the first
                                > book of this work says, 'that divine names will be accurately discussed
                                > by him, when he comes to speak of partial powers.' This, however, is
                                > not done by him in any one of the six books that are extant; which shows
                                > that another book is wanting."
                                >
                                > I know that Taylor's supposition that there was once a seventh book is
                                > now generally considered to be wrong, but I would be interested to know
                                > if anyone has followed up the "catalogue of manuscripts" and a possible
                                > entry in it pointing to Proclus and a possible seventh book. Does the
                                > catalogue of Louis XVI (I assume) still exist?
                                >
                                > Alternatively, is there now clear evidence that the six books are
                                > actually the complete work?
                                >
                                > Tim
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                Now that would be an interesting subject of investigation, Tim. TT was
                                doubtless dependent on rumours, but still.. It is fairly certain that
                                Proclus intended to go further ‹ and after all, all of his commentaries are
                                truncated ‹ I have suggested, irreverently, by exhausted scribes! John


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Thomas Mether
                                Tim, I don t have an answer but one place I d check is with those at the Academy of Athens involved in cataloging and publishing critical editions of the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                  Tim,
                                  I don't have an answer but one place I'd check is with those at the Academy of Athens involved in cataloging and publishing critical editions of the Byzantine manuscripts along with matching of the imperial catalogue of the library of Constantinople with its surviving contents. If there is a surviving seventh book, or even if there is a no longer surviving seventh book, this would be one place to look.
                                  Thomas 

                                   
                                   
                                  --- On Mon, 12/7/09, Tim Addey <tim@...> wrote:


                                  From: Tim Addey <tim@...>
                                  Subject: [neoplatonism] Proclus' Theology of Plato - a seventh book?
                                  To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 9:14 AM


                                   



                                  In Taylor's 1812 introduction to his translation of the six books of
                                  Proclus on the Theology of Plato he says "I have added a seventh book in
                                  order to render the work complete; for without the development of the
                                  mundane Gods, and the more excellent genera their perpetual attendants,
                                  it would obviously be incomplete. From the catalogue of the manuscripts
                                  in the late French King's library, it is evident that Proclus had
                                  written a seventh book as some chapters of it are there said to be
                                  extant in that library. These I have endeavoured, but without success,
                                  to obtain." He adds as a footnote, "Proclus at the end of the first
                                  book of this work says, 'that divine names will be accurately discussed
                                  by him, when he comes to speak of partial powers.' This, however, is
                                  not done by him in any one of the six books that are extant; which shows
                                  that another book is wanting."

                                  I know that Taylor's supposition that there was once a seventh book is
                                  now generally considered to be wrong, but I would be interested to know
                                  if anyone has followed up the "catalogue of manuscripts" and a possible
                                  entry in it pointing to Proclus and a possible seventh book. Does the
                                  catalogue of Louis XVI (I assume) still exist?

                                  Alternatively, is there now clear evidence that the six books are
                                  actually the complete work?

                                  Tim

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • vaeringjar
                                  ... Just had the most disturbing vision ca. 1792 of some Madame Lafarge like character wrapping fish with parchment ripped from the Royal library s only copy
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                    --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, John Dillon <jmdillon@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > In Taylor's 1812 introduction to his translation of the six books of
                                    > > Proclus on the Theology of Plato he says "I have added a seventh book in
                                    > > order to render the work complete; for without the development of the
                                    > > mundane Gods, and the more excellent genera their perpetual attendants,
                                    > > it would obviously be incomplete. From the catalogue of the manuscripts
                                    > > in the late French King's library, it is evident that Proclus had
                                    > > written a seventh book as some chapters of it are there said to be
                                    > > extant in that library. These I have endeavoured, but without success,
                                    > > to obtain." He adds as a footnote, "Proclus at the end of the first
                                    > > book of this work says, 'that divine names will be accurately discussed
                                    > > by him, when he comes to speak of partial powers.' This, however, is
                                    > > not done by him in any one of the six books that are extant; which shows
                                    > > that another book is wanting."
                                    > >
                                    > > I know that Taylor's supposition that there was once a seventh book is
                                    > > now generally considered to be wrong, but I would be interested to know
                                    > > if anyone has followed up the "catalogue of manuscripts" and a possible
                                    > > entry in it pointing to Proclus and a possible seventh book. Does the
                                    > > catalogue of Louis XVI (I assume) still exist?
                                    > >
                                    > > Alternatively, is there now clear evidence that the six books are
                                    > > actually the complete work?
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim
                                    > >
                                    > Now that would be an interesting subject of investigation, Tim. TT was
                                    > doubtless dependent on rumours, but still.. It is fairly certain that
                                    > Proclus intended to go further ‹ and after all, all of his commentaries are
                                    > truncated ‹ I have suggested, irreverently, by exhausted scribes! John
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Just had the most disturbing vision ca. 1792 of some Madame Lafarge like character wrapping fish with parchment ripped from the Royal library's only copy of the complete Platonic Theology!

                                    But where did Taylor get this idea? It's too specific, isn't it, just to be some sort of vague rumor? Who on earth at that point in time would start such a rumor, unless if it was just a rumor it was someone smart enough to play a specific rather malicious joke on Taylor, someone who knew him well, trying to set him off on a wild goose chase? I do wonder if there is a little fire to this old smoke. I actually am surprised we have as much of Proclus as we do, but as we have discussed here before it's hard often to see much reason in what survived and what didn't.

                                    Dennis Clark
                                  • Tim Addey
                                    ****** vaeringjar wrote: Just had the most disturbing vision ca. 1792 of some Madame Lafarge like character wrapping fish with parchment ripped from the Royal
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                      ******
                                      vaeringjar wrote:

                                      Just had the most disturbing vision ca. 1792 of some Madame Lafarge like
                                      character wrapping fish with parchment ripped from the Royal library's
                                      only copy of the complete Platonic Theology!

                                      But where did Taylor get this idea? It's too specific, isn't it, just to
                                      be some sort of vague rumor? Who on earth at that point in time would
                                      start such a rumor, unless if it was just a rumor it was someone smart
                                      enough to play a specific rather malicious joke on Taylor, someone who
                                      knew him well, trying to set him off on a wild goose chase? I do wonder
                                      if there is a little fire to this old smoke. I actually am surprised we
                                      have as much of Proclus as we do, but as we have discussed here before
                                      it's hard often to see much reason in what survived and what didn't.

                                      Dennis Clark

                                      ******

                                      Dennis

                                      Taylor had some connections through which some genuine information
                                      regarding the library of the French King could have been gathered: the
                                      Marquis de Valady was his guest for three or four months druing 1788 - a
                                      guest who saw himself as Taylor's pupil. The Marquis was a Pythagorean
                                      and a supporter of the revolution - as an officer in the Gardes
                                      Francaises (responsible for guarding the Royal Family) he refused to
                                      follow the kings orders to fire on the populace during the first clashes
                                      of the revolution, and having thus earned the King's displeasure he left
                                      France to travel to England. He eventually returned to France and
                                      despite his liberal and revolutionary principles - or perhaps because of
                                      them - was executed.during the reign of terror in 1793. A lesson to us all.

                                      Tim




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Curt Steinmetz
                                      Omigods -- what great material for a historical novel and/or HBO series! Curt
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                        Omigods -- what great material for a historical novel and/or HBO series!

                                        Curt

                                        Tim Addey wrote:
                                        > Dennis
                                        >
                                        > Taylor had some connections through which some genuine information
                                        > regarding the library of the French King could have been gathered: the
                                        > Marquis de Valady was his guest for three or four months druing 1788 - a
                                        > guest who saw himself as Taylor's pupil. The Marquis was a Pythagorean
                                        > and a supporter of the revolution - as an officer in the Gardes
                                        > Francaises (responsible for guarding the Royal Family) he refused to
                                        > follow the kings orders to fire on the populace during the first clashes
                                        > of the revolution, and having thus earned the King's displeasure he left
                                        > France to travel to England. He eventually returned to France and
                                        > despite his liberal and revolutionary principles - or perhaps because of
                                        > them - was executed.during the reign of terror in 1793. A lesson to us all.
                                        >
                                        > Tim
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • vaeringjar
                                        ... This is all truly fascinating - I did a little online digging about the unlucky Marquis, and found this early biographical work on figures of the French
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Tim Addey <tim@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ******
                                          > vaeringjar wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Just had the most disturbing vision ca. 1792 of some Madame Lafarge like
                                          > character wrapping fish with parchment ripped from the Royal library's
                                          > only copy of the complete Platonic Theology!
                                          >
                                          > But where did Taylor get this idea? It's too specific, isn't it, just to
                                          > be some sort of vague rumor? Who on earth at that point in time would
                                          > start such a rumor, unless if it was just a rumor it was someone smart
                                          > enough to play a specific rather malicious joke on Taylor, someone who
                                          > knew him well, trying to set him off on a wild goose chase? I do wonder
                                          > if there is a little fire to this old smoke. I actually am surprised we
                                          > have as much of Proclus as we do, but as we have discussed here before
                                          > it's hard often to see much reason in what survived and what didn't.
                                          >
                                          > Dennis Clark
                                          >
                                          > ******
                                          >
                                          > Dennis
                                          >
                                          > Taylor had some connections through which some genuine information
                                          > regarding the library of the French King could have been gathered: the
                                          > Marquis de Valady was his guest for three or four months druing 1788 - a
                                          > guest who saw himself as Taylor's pupil. The Marquis was a Pythagorean
                                          > and a supporter of the revolution - as an officer in the Gardes
                                          > Francaises (responsible for guarding the Royal Family) he refused to
                                          > follow the kings orders to fire on the populace during the first clashes
                                          > of the revolution, and having thus earned the King's displeasure he left
                                          > France to travel to England. He eventually returned to France and
                                          > despite his liberal and revolutionary principles - or perhaps because of
                                          > them - was executed.during the reign of terror in 1793. A lesson to us all.
                                          >
                                          > Tim
                                          >
                                          >

                                          This is all truly fascinating - I did a little online digging about the unlucky Marquis, and found this early biographical work on figures of the French Revolution (1799!) which gives some details about him - heavens knows how accurate it is, but it makes good reading:

                                          http://books.google.com/books?id=ejM2AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

                                          Have you researched him more, Tim? I can't find much online, but that is probably no real indication of knowledge about him.

                                          Just from what little I have found I can't make out if he was just a bit eccentric if well-meaning or something else. Could he have been telling Taylor what he wanted to hear about the Proclus PT - ? One thing I would be curious about is how he would have access to the library in order to determine something like that.

                                          Or am I being a bit uncharitable?

                                          Dennis Clark
                                        • vaeringjar
                                          ... Read the bit I found online from the 1799 biographical work - it gets better. I was thinking the same thing myself - or even an opera! Le Marquis
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 7, 2009
                                            --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, Curt Steinmetz <curt@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Omigods -- what great material for a historical novel and/or HBO series!
                                            >
                                            > Curt
                                            >

                                            Read the bit I found online from the 1799 biographical work - it gets better. I was thinking the same thing myself - or even an opera!

                                            "Le Marquis Pythagoriste" perhaps?

                                            Dennis Clark
                                          • dgallagher@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, neoplatonist2000@yahoo.com writes: P.S. I don t think that life is all about number and
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 8, 2009
                                              In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                              neoplatonist2000@... writes:

                                              P.S. I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.

                                              Les,

                                              Consider the subtleties of the preposition 'about' (think spherically,
                                              which implicates the solids), and a possible rephrasing: Number and geometry
                                              are all about life. The suggestion involves recognition of cosmos existing
                                              'within' soul rather than soul embodied in cosmos.

                                              David


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • leslie greenhill
                                              3 Jan. 10 Hi David   Your email of the 9th December just arrived.  I understand what you are saying about numbers and geometry.  I feel that you might feel
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 3, 2010
                                                3 Jan. 10

                                                Hi David
                                                 
                                                Your email of the 9th December just arrived.  I understand what you are saying about numbers and geometry.  I feel that you might feel as strongly about numbers and geometry as I do.  However, as someone who deals in dreams as well, I'm not so sure that we can be so sure what numbers and geometry are all about anyway.  In Carl Jung's "Synchonicity - an acausal connecting principle" he writes:  "There is something peculiar, one might even say mysterious, about numbers...". 

                                                You can only write something like that when you have experienced the mystery of number.  And that is something I can say something about as well.  Not so much here because numbers don't attract much interest.  Below is a quote from Plotinus that I have cited before: 

                                                “The metaphysician, equipped by that very character, winged already and not like those others, in need of disengagement, stirring of himself towards the supernal but doubting of the way, needs only a guide.  He must be shown, then, and instructed, a willing wayfarer by his very temperament, all but self-directed. 

                                                Mathematics, which as a student by nature he will take very easily, will be prescribed to train him to abstract thought and to faith in the unembodied; a moral being by native disposition, he must be led to make his virtue perfect; after the Mathematics he must be put through a course in Dialectic and made an adept in the science.”   (The Six Enneads - first Ennead.) 

                                                Now, here is a question.  How many in this group have thought about what the "Six Enneads" may encrypt in its title?  The number 54 (6 x 9) perhaps?  If you can tell me to what it refers, we can, perhaps, start a marvellous conversation. 

                                                A quote from Plutarch - the passage is from his essay “The E at Delphi” - which is published in Moralia, Volume V, immediately following the essay on “Isis and Osiris”.  The interlocutor is Plutarch. 

                                                “When Nicander had expounded all this, my friend Theon, whom I presume you know, asked Ammonius if Logical Reason had any rights in free speech, after being spoken of in such a very insulting manner.  And when Ammonius urged him to speak and come to her assistance, he said, “That the god [Apollo] is a most logical reasoner the great majority of his oracles show clearly; for surely it is the function of the same person both to solve and to invent ambiguities.  Moreover, as Plato said, when an oracle was given that they should double the size of the altar at Delos (a task requiring the highest skill in geometry), it was not this that the god was enjoining, but he was urging the Greeks to study geometry.  And so, in the same way, when the god gives out ambiguous oracles, he is promoting and organizing logical reasoning as indispensable for those who are to apprehend his meaning aright.”  (Babbitt, pp. 209-211/Stephanus 386)

                                                So, let's hear about the number 54.  It's half 108.  Remember Penelope's 108 suitors?

                                                Les

                                                P.O. Box 314
                                                Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                Email: neoplatonist2000@...

                                                --- On Wed, 9/12/09, dgallagher@...
                                                <dgallagher@...> wrote:


                                                From: dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                                Received: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 1:24 AM


                                                 



                                                In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                P.S. I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.

                                                Les,

                                                Consider the subtleties of the preposition 'about' (think spherically,
                                                which implicates the solids), and a possible rephrasing: Number and geometry
                                                are all about life. The suggestion involves recognition of cosmos existing
                                                'within' soul rather than soul embodied in cosmos.

                                                David

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                                                __________________________________________________________________________________
                                                See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/
                                              • dgallagher@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 1/3/2010 6:39:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, neoplatonist2000@yahoo.com writes: Hi David Your email of the 9th December just arrived. I
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 3, 2010
                                                  In a message dated 1/3/2010 6:39:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  neoplatonist2000@... writes:



                                                  Hi David

                                                  Your email of the 9th December just arrived. I understand what you are
                                                  saying about numbers and geometry. I feel that you might feel as strongly
                                                  about numbers and geometry as I do. However, as someone who deals in dreams
                                                  as well, I'm not so sure that we can be so sure what numbers and geometry
                                                  are all about anyway. In Carl Jung's "Synchonicity - an acausal connecting
                                                  principle" he writes: "There is something peculiar, one might even say
                                                  mysterious, about numbers...".

                                                  Les,

                                                  Mystery and number are synonymous.

                                                  Below is a quote from Plotinus that I have cited before:

                                                  “The metaphysician, equipped by that very character, winged already and
                                                  not like those others, in need of disengagement, stirring of himself towards
                                                  the supernal but doubting of the way, needs only a guide. He must be
                                                  shown, then, and instructed, a willing wayfarer by his very temperament, all but
                                                  self-directed.

                                                  Mathematics, which as a student by nature he will take very easily, will
                                                  be prescribed to train him to abstract thought and to faith in the
                                                  unembodied; a moral being by native disposition, he must be led to make his virtue
                                                  perfect; after the Mathematics he must be put through a course in Dialectic
                                                  and made an adept in the science.” (The Six Enneads - first Ennead.)
                                                  Indeed, I.3.3. Related, in my opinion, to Republic, VI, 511b.

                                                  Personally, I don't take 'very easily' to quantitative mathematics.

                                                  Now, here is a question. How many in this group have thought about what
                                                  the "Six Enneads" may encrypt in its title? The number 54 (6 x 9) perhaps?
                                                  If you can tell me to what it refers, we can, perhaps, start a marvellous
                                                  conversation.
                                                  You really must get/read Slaveva-Griffin, Plotinus on Number (OUP, 2009)
                                                  [978-0-19-537719-4], most especially pp. 17-21 and 131-140 regarding the
                                                  number 54 and sixes and nines. I expect you'll savor the book like an
                                                  exceptional meal or bottle of fine wine.

                                                  A quote from Plutarch - the passage is from his essay “The E at Delphi” -
                                                  which is published in Moralia, Volume V, immediately following the essay
                                                  on “Isis and Osiris”. The interlocutor is Plutarch.

                                                  “When Nicander had expounded all this, my friend Theon, whom I presume you
                                                  know, asked Ammonius if Logical Reason had any rights in free speech,
                                                  after being spoken of in such a very insulting manner. And when Ammonius urged
                                                  him to speak and come to her assistance, he said, “That the god [Apollo]
                                                  is a most logical reasoner the great majority of his oracles show clearly;
                                                  for surely it is the function of the same person both to solve and to invent
                                                  ambiguities. Moreover, as Plato said, when an oracle was given that they
                                                  should double the size of the altar at Delos (a task requiring the highest
                                                  skill in geometry), it was not this that the god was enjoining, but he was
                                                  urging the Greeks to study geometry. And so, in the same way, when the god
                                                  gives out ambiguous oracles, he is promoting and organizing logical
                                                  reasoning as indispensable for those who are to apprehend his meaning aright.”
                                                  (Babbitt, pp. 209-211/Stephanus 386)
                                                  The pleasure and travail of philosophy.

                                                  So, let's hear about the number 54. It's half 108. Remember Penelope's
                                                  108 suitors?
                                                  108/360 = thauma (irrational ratio). Also the sum of the least and most
                                                  acute angles in a Phi triangle. Are you interested in the geometry of
                                                  Plato's divided line (Rep. VI, 509d) and its juxtaposition with 511b, recalling
                                                  Enneads, I.3.3?

                                                  5+4=9

                                                  Five is the mean/median/mode in 1-9. One-half root 5 is implicate in
                                                  Plato's divided line and is essential to the generation of six. Five
                                                  interpenetrating hexahedrons form the vertices of a dodecahedron; associated by Plato
                                                  with the fifth and most subtle element: ether (space).

                                                  4x9 = 36. 3+6 =9. 36 x 9 = 324 + 36 = 360. If 9 is completion, is 10
                                                  continuous? Continuous completion? What's the distinction between complete
                                                  and continuous?

                                                  David



                                                  Les

                                                  P.O. Box 314
                                                  Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                  Email: _neoplatonist2000@neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonist2000@...)

                                                  --- On Wed, 9/12/09, _dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...)
                                                  <_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) > wrote:

                                                  From: _dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...)
                                                  <_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) >
                                                  Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                  To: _neoplatonism@neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                                                  Received: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 1:24 AM



                                                  In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                  P.S. I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.

                                                  Les,

                                                  Consider the subtleties of the preposition 'about' (think spherically,
                                                  which implicates the solids), and a possible rephrasing: Number and
                                                  geometry
                                                  are all about life. The suggestion involves recognition of cosmos existing
                                                  'within' soul rather than soul embodied in cosmos.

                                                  David

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  __________________________________________________________
                                                  See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now:
                                                  _http://au.movies.http://au.http://au.movi_ (http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/)




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • leslie greenhill
                                                  Hi David   Thanks for the thoughtful remarks and information.  I will try to find the Slaveva-Griffin work this week.  Some of your thoughts, though, seem
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 3, 2010
                                                    Hi David
                                                     
                                                    Thanks for the thoughtful remarks and information.  I will try to find the Slaveva-Griffin work this week.  Some of your thoughts, though, seem to involve numerology.  That's a fairly rocky road to travel. 
                                                     
                                                    There is always something interesting to discuss about the Divided Line.  However, your reference to 511b was great.  Compare H.D.P. Lee's translation of the the sentence that ends (b) and starts (c).  "The whole procedure involves nothing in the sensible world, but moves solely through forms to forms, and finishes with forms." 
                                                     
                                                    R. Waterford translates this  as:  "It makes absolutely no use of anything perceptible by the senses:  it aims for types by means of types alone, in and of themselves, and it ends its journey with types." 
                                                     
                                                    Some of the group read Greek.  What do they think of both translations?  And what does Plato mean?  Is this his opinion or has he had some kind of expernence that does not easily translate into words.  If he has done as much work with geometry as his works suggest, then I would readily accept that he has had some kind of experience.  I can give some sort of example in this regard.  We are all familiar to a greater or lesser degree with the five Platonic solids.  An in-depth examination of certain features shows that the features can transform as they "move" from one shape to another:  angles can turn into lines (e.g. 72 degrees into 72 units).  Or angles can turn into square numbers or cubic numbers or numbers to the fourth power.  All this can be found without the aid of a computer or a calculator.  I can tell you this with absolute certainty, if you rely solely on a calculator for results you will miss the point of some of the
                                                    marvellous formulations that can be found in some ancient works. 
                                                     
                                                    Les
                                                     


                                                    P.O. Box 314
                                                    Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                    Email: neoplatonist2000@...

                                                    --- On Mon, 4/1/10, dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...> wrote:


                                                    From: dgallagher@... <dgallagher@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                    To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Received: Monday, 4 January, 2010, 6:19 AM


                                                     



                                                    In a message dated 1/3/2010 6:39:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                    Hi David

                                                    Your email of the 9th December just arrived. I understand what you are
                                                    saying about numbers and geometry. I feel that you might feel as strongly
                                                    about numbers and geometry as I do. However, as someone who deals in dreams
                                                    as well, I'm not so sure that we can be so sure what numbers and geometry
                                                    are all about anyway. In Carl Jung's "Synchonicity - an acausal connecting
                                                    principle" he writes: "There is something peculiar, one might even say
                                                    mysterious, about numbers...".

                                                    Les,

                                                    Mystery and number are synonymous.

                                                    Below is a quote from Plotinus that I have cited before:

                                                    “The metaphysician, equipped by that very character, winged already and
                                                    not like those others, in need of disengagement, stirring of himself towards
                                                    the supernal but doubting of the way, needs only a guide. He must be
                                                    shown, then, and instructed, a willing wayfarer by his very temperament, all but
                                                    self-directed.

                                                    Mathematics, which as a student by nature he will take very easily, will
                                                    be prescribed to train him to abstract thought and to faith in the
                                                    unembodied; a moral being by native disposition, he must be led to make his virtue
                                                    perfect; after the Mathematics he must be put through a course in Dialectic
                                                    and made an adept in the science.” (The Six Enneads - first Ennead.)
                                                    Indeed, I.3.3. Related, in my opinion, to Republic, VI, 511b.

                                                    Personally, I don't take 'very easily' to quantitative mathematics.

                                                    Now, here is a question. How many in this group have thought about what
                                                    the "Six Enneads" may encrypt in its title? The number 54 (6 x 9) perhaps?
                                                    If you can tell me to what it refers, we can, perhaps, start a marvellous
                                                    conversation.
                                                    You really must get/read Slaveva-Griffin, Plotinus on Number (OUP, 2009)
                                                    [978-0-19-537719- 4], most especially pp. 17-21 and 131-140 regarding the
                                                    number 54 and sixes and nines. I expect you'll savor the book like an
                                                    exceptional meal or bottle of fine wine.

                                                    A quote from Plutarch - the passage is from his essay “The E at Delphi” -
                                                    which is published in Moralia, Volume V, immediately following the essay
                                                    on “Isis and Osiris”. The interlocutor is Plutarch.

                                                    “When Nicander had expounded all this, my friend Theon, whom I presume you
                                                    know, asked Ammonius if Logical Reason had any rights in free speech,
                                                    after being spoken of in such a very insulting manner. And when Ammonius urged
                                                    him to speak and come to her assistance, he said, “That the god [Apollo]
                                                    is a most logical reasoner the great majority of his oracles show clearly;
                                                    for surely it is the function of the same person both to solve and to invent
                                                    ambiguities. Moreover, as Plato said, when an oracle was given that they
                                                    should double the size of the altar at Delos (a task requiring the highest
                                                    skill in geometry), it was not this that the god was enjoining, but he was
                                                    urging the Greeks to study geometry. And so, in the same way, when the god
                                                    gives out ambiguous oracles, he is promoting and organizing logical
                                                    reasoning as indispensable for those who are to apprehend his meaning aright.”
                                                    (Babbitt, pp. 209-211/Stephanus 386)
                                                    The pleasure and travail of philosophy.

                                                    So, let's hear about the number 54. It's half 108. Remember Penelope's
                                                    108 suitors?
                                                    108/360 = thauma (irrational ratio). Also the sum of the least and most
                                                    acute angles in a Phi triangle. Are you interested in the geometry of
                                                    Plato's divided line (Rep. VI, 509d) and its juxtaposition with 511b, recalling
                                                    Enneads, I.3.3?

                                                    5+4=9

                                                    Five is the mean/median/ mode in 1-9. One-half root 5 is implicate in
                                                    Plato's divided line and is essential to the generation of six. Five
                                                    interpenetrating hexahedrons form the vertices of a dodecahedron; associated by Plato
                                                    with the fifth and most subtle element: ether (space).

                                                    4x9 = 36. 3+6 =9. 36 x 9 = 324 + 36 = 360. If 9 is completion, is 10
                                                    continuous? Continuous completion? What's the distinction between complete
                                                    and continuous?

                                                    David

                                                    Les

                                                    P.O. Box 314
                                                    Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                    Email: _neoplatonist2000@ neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com)

                                                    --- On Wed, 9/12/09, _dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@aol. com)
                                                    <_dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@aol. com) > wrote:

                                                    From: _dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@aol. com)
                                                    <_dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@aol. com) >
                                                    Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                    To: _neoplatonism@ neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonism@ yahoogroups. com)
                                                    Received: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 1:24 AM

                                                    In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                    P.S. I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.

                                                    Les,

                                                    Consider the subtleties of the preposition 'about' (think spherically,
                                                    which implicates the solids), and a possible rephrasing: Number and
                                                    geometry
                                                    are all about life. The suggestion involves recognition of cosmos existing
                                                    'within' soul rather than soul embodied in cosmos.

                                                    David

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                    See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now:
                                                    _http://au.movies. http://au. http://au. movi_ (http://au.movies. yahoo.com/ session-times/)

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                                    __________________________________________________________________________________
                                                    See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • dgallagher@aol.com
                                                    Les, I m not at all into numerology or divination and had no intention to point the discussion in that direction. Further, I don t read Greek and must rely on
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 4, 2010
                                                      Les,

                                                      I'm not at all into numerology or divination and had no intention to point
                                                      the discussion in that direction.

                                                      Further, I don't read Greek and must rely on translation. Regarding
                                                      Republic, I'm happy with Jowett, but compare as well with Shorey, Bloom, and
                                                      Taylor.

                                                      Jowett: And when I speak of the other division of the intelligible, you
                                                      will understand me to speak of that other sort of knowledge which reason
                                                      herself attains by the power of dialectic, using the hypotheses not as first
                                                      principles, but only as hypotheses --that is to say, as steps and points of
                                                      departure into a world which is above hypotheses, in order that she may soar
                                                      beyond them to the first principle of the whole; and clinging to this and
                                                      then to that which depends on this, by successive steps she descends again
                                                      without the aid of any sensible object, from ideas, through ideas, and in
                                                      ideas she ends.

                                                      Shorey: Understand then…that by the other section of the intelligible I
                                                      mean that which the reason itself lays hold of by the power of dialectic,
                                                      treating its assumptions not as absolute beginnings but literally as
                                                      hypotheses, underpinnings, footings, and springboards so to speak, to enable it to
                                                      rise to that which requires no assumption and is the starting point of all,
                                                      and after attaining to that again taking hold of the first dependencies from
                                                      it, so to proceed downward to the conclusion, making no use whatever of
                                                      any object of sense but only of pure ideas moving on through ideas to ideas
                                                      and ending with ideas.


                                                      Bloom: Well, then, go on to understand that by the other segment of the
                                                      intelligible I mean that which argument itself grasps with the power of
                                                      dialectic. Making the hypotheses not beginnings but really hypotheses – that
                                                      is, steppingstones and springboards – in order to reach what is free from
                                                      hypothesis at the beginning of the whole._[1]_
                                                      (aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftn1) When argument has grasped this, argument no longer depends on
                                                      that which depends on this beginning and in such fashion goes back down again
                                                      to an end; making no use of anything sensed in any way, but using forms
                                                      themselves, going through forms to forms, it ends in forms too.


                                                      ____________________________________

                                                      _[1]_ (aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftnref1) [Bloom] Or another
                                                      possible rendering: “…the beginning which is the whole.”
                                                      Taylor: Understand, now, that by the other section of the intelligible, I
                                                      mean that which reason itself attains, making hypotheses by its own
                                                      reasoning power, not as principles, but really hypotheses, as steps and handles,
                                                      that, proceeding as far as to that which is unhypothetical, viz., the
                                                      principle of the universe, and coming into contact with it, again adhering to
                                                      those things which adhere to the principle, it may thus descend to the end;
                                                      using nowhere anything that is sensible, but forms themselves, proceeding
                                                      through some to others, and at length in forms terminating its progression.
                                                      In this context, I do so wish I had the language skills to do my own
                                                      rendering as there are important nuances of variation across the several
                                                      translations.
                                                      Regarding the solids and calculation, I need to assemble a separate
                                                      response. Involves the distinction between substantial and quantitative number
                                                      and the idea of tangency. Each is relevant with reference to the renderings
                                                      of 511b-c. Other responsibilities beckon at the moment. Give me a few
                                                      days, please.
                                                      Plato's meaning and experience? I have opinions on the former, which
                                                      must be dependent on the latter. The 'content' of his experience seems to me
                                                      more a matter of speculation in terms of a possible mystical component. The
                                                      mist in mystical is dissolved through the power of dialectic; duality
                                                      re-solved in, by, and through Reason -- the substance of self-knowing.
                                                      David










                                                      In a message dated 1/3/2010 11:35:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                      neoplatonist2000@... writes:




                                                      Hi David

                                                      Thanks for the thoughtful remarks and information. I will try to find the
                                                      Slaveva-Griffin work this week. Some of your thoughts, though, seem to
                                                      involve numerology. That's a fairly rocky road to travel.

                                                      There is always something interesting to discuss about the Divided Line.
                                                      However, your reference to 511b was great. Compare H.D.P. Lee's
                                                      translation of the the sentence that ends (b) and starts (c). "The whole procedure
                                                      involves nothing in the sensible world, but moves solely through forms to
                                                      forms, and finishes with forms."

                                                      R. Waterford translates this as: "It makes absolutely no use of anything
                                                      perceptible by the senses: it aims for types by means of types alone, in
                                                      and of themselves, and it ends its journey with types."

                                                      Some of the group read Greek. What do they think of both translations?
                                                      And what does Plato mean? Is this his opinion or has he had some kind of
                                                      expernence that does not easily translate into words. If he has done as much
                                                      work with geometry as his works suggest, then I would readily accept that
                                                      he has had some kind of experience. I can give some sort of example in
                                                      this regard. We are all familiar to a greater or lesser degree with the five
                                                      Platonic solids. An in-depth examination of certain features shows that
                                                      the features can transform as they "move" from one shape to another: angles
                                                      can turn into lines (e.g. 72 degrees into 72 units). Or angles can turn
                                                      into square numbers or cubic numbers or numbers to the fourth power. All
                                                      this can be found without the aid of a computer or a calculator. I can tell
                                                      you this with absolute certainty, if you rely solely on a calculator for
                                                      results you will miss the point of some of the
                                                      marvellous formulations that can be found in some ancient works.

                                                      Les


                                                      P.O. Box 314
                                                      Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                      Email: _neoplatonist2000@neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonist2000@...)

                                                      --- On Mon, 4/1/10, _dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...)
                                                      <_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) > wrote:

                                                      From: _dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...)
                                                      <_dgallagher@..._ (mailto:dgallagher@...) >
                                                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                      To: _neoplatonism@neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com)
                                                      Received: Monday, 4 January, 2010, 6:19 AM



                                                      In a message dated 1/3/2010 6:39:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                      neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                      Hi David

                                                      Your email of the 9th December just arrived. I understand what you are
                                                      saying about numbers and geometry. I feel that you might feel as strongly
                                                      about numbers and geometry as I do. However, as someone who deals in
                                                      dreams
                                                      as well, I'm not so sure that we can be so sure what numbers and geometry
                                                      are all about anyway. In Carl Jung's "Synchonicity - an acausal connecting
                                                      principle" he writes: "There is something peculiar, one might even say
                                                      mysterious, about numbers...".

                                                      Les,

                                                      Mystery and number are synonymous.

                                                      Below is a quote from Plotinus that I have cited before:

                                                      “The metaphysician, equipped by that very character, winged already and
                                                      not like those others, in need of disengagement, stirring of himself
                                                      towards
                                                      the supernal but doubting of the way, needs only a guide. He must be
                                                      shown, then, and instructed, a willing wayfarer by his very temperament,
                                                      all but
                                                      self-directed.

                                                      Mathematics, which as a student by nature he will take very easily, will
                                                      be prescribed to train him to abstract thought and to faith in the
                                                      unembodied; a moral being by native disposition, he must be led to make
                                                      his virtue
                                                      perfect; after the Mathematics he must be put through a course in
                                                      Dialectic
                                                      and made an adept in the science.” (The Six Enneads - first Ennead.)
                                                      Indeed, I.3.3. Related, in my opinion, to Republic, VI, 511b.

                                                      Personally, I don't take 'very easily' to quantitative mathematics.

                                                      Now, here is a question. How many in this group have thought about what
                                                      the "Six Enneads" may encrypt in its title? The number 54 (6 x 9) perhaps?
                                                      If you can tell me to what it refers, we can, perhaps, start a marvellous
                                                      conversation.
                                                      You really must get/read Slaveva-Griffin, Plotinus on Number (OUP, 2009)
                                                      [978-0-19-537719- 4], most especially pp. 17-21 and 131-140 regarding the
                                                      number 54 and sixes and nines. I expect you'll savor the book like an
                                                      exceptional meal or bottle of fine wine.

                                                      A quote from Plutarch - the passage is from his essay “The E at Delphi” -
                                                      which is published in Moralia, Volume V, immediately following the essay
                                                      on “Isis and Osiris”. The interlocutor is Plutarch.

                                                      “When Nicander had expounded all this, my friend Theon, whom I presume you
                                                      know, asked Ammonius if Logical Reason had any rights in free speech,
                                                      after being spoken of in such a very insulting manner. And when Ammonius
                                                      urged
                                                      him to speak and come to her assistance, he said, “That the god [Apollo]
                                                      is a most logical reasoner the great majority of his oracles show clearly;
                                                      for surely it is the function of the same person both to solve and to
                                                      invent
                                                      ambiguities. Moreover, as Plato said, when an oracle was given that they
                                                      should double the size of the altar at Delos (a task requiring the highest
                                                      skill in geometry), it was not this that the god was enjoining, but he was
                                                      urging the Greeks to study geometry. And so, in the same way, when the god
                                                      gives out ambiguous oracles, he is promoting and organizing logical
                                                      reasoning as indispensable for those who are to apprehend his meaning
                                                      aright.”
                                                      (Babbitt, pp. 209-211/Stephanus 386)
                                                      The pleasure and travail of philosophy.

                                                      So, let's hear about the number 54. It's half 108. Remember Penelope's
                                                      108 suitors?
                                                      108/360 = thauma (irrational ratio). Also the sum of the least and most
                                                      acute angles in a Phi triangle. Are you interested in the geometry of
                                                      Plato's divided line (Rep. VI, 509d) and its juxtaposition with 511b,
                                                      recalling
                                                      Enneads, I.3.3?

                                                      5+4=9

                                                      Five is the mean/median/ mode in 1-9. One-half root 5 is implicate in
                                                      Plato's divided line and is essential to the generation of six. Five
                                                      interpenetrating hexahedrons form the vertices of a dodecahedron;
                                                      associated by Plato
                                                      with the fifth and most subtle element: ether (space).

                                                      4x9 = 36. 3+6 =9. 36 x 9 = 324 + 36 = 360. If 9 is completion, is 10
                                                      continuous? Continuous completion? What's the distinction between complete
                                                      and continuous?

                                                      David

                                                      Les

                                                      P.O. Box 314
                                                      Mentone, Victoria 3194 Australia
                                                      Email: _neoplatonist2000@ neoplaton_ (mailto:neoplatonisEmail: _neoplatoni

                                                      --- On Wed, 9/12/09, _dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@--- On Wed
                                                      <_dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@_dgallaghe> wrote:

                                                      From: _dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@:dgallaghe
                                                      <_dgallagher@ aol.dga_ (mailto:dgallagher@_dgallaghe>
                                                      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Odysseus in the myth of Er
                                                      To: _neoplatonism@ neoplatonismneo_ (mailto:neoplatonisTo: _neoplatonism@
                                                      ne
                                                      Received: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 1:24 AM

                                                      In a message dated 12/4/2009 7:56:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                      neoplatonist2000@ yahoo.com writes:

                                                      P.S. I don't think that life is all about number and geometry.

                                                      Les,

                                                      Consider the subtleties of the preposition 'about' (think spherically,
                                                      which implicates the solids), and a possible rephrasing: Number and
                                                      geometry
                                                      are all about life. The suggestion involves recognition of cosmos existing
                                                      'within' soul rather than soul embodied in cosmos.

                                                      David

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