Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Apuleius / Thomas Taylor (was Re: [neoplatonism] Fw: QUOTES FROM OTHER LETTERS

Expand Messages
  • Al Billings
    He s also the only source, in English, of quite a few texts. Point me to a translation of Iamblichus _De Mysteriis_ that is current and scholastic and I ll
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 11, 2003
      He's also the only source, in English, of quite a few texts. Point me to a
      translation of Iamblichus' _De Mysteriis_ that is current and scholastic and
      I'll chuck my copy of Thomas Taylor's...

      Al

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "bradley Skene" <malkhos@...>
      To: <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>; <PhilosophyAncient@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: <Neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 9:42 AM
      Subject: Apuleius / Thomas Taylor (was Re: [neoplatonism] Fw: QUOTES FROM
      OTHER LETTERS


      > The shorter works of Apuleius were trnaslated at the turn of the century,
      and more recently and authorotatively:
      >
      >
      > Apuleius : rhetorical works / translated and annotated by Stephen
      Harrison, John Hilton, and Vincent Hunink ; edited by Stephen Harrison.
      PublishedOxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 2001.
      >
      > Thoams Taylor was what today would be called a 'pagan reconstructionist'
      rather than a scholar. Most of his translations were out of Latin (from
      Ficino's translation of Plato, for example, rather than from the Greek). He
      had a rudimentary knowldge of Greek, but not equal to the task he udnertook.
      After comapring his translation of Porphyry's Letter to Anebo to the Greek
      text of Sodano, I have to say that Coleridge's characterization of him--that
      he renders difficult Greek into incoprehensible English--is kind to him.
      Taylor wanted to turn Neoplatonism into a kind of fundamentalism. He denied
      the validiity of telescoptic asttronomy and Newton's and Kepler's Laws
      becuase he found them incompatible with the Timaeus, as if the Timaeus was a
      rigid doctrinaire prosciption of the limits of truth, which to my mind only
      signifiies how little he understood the meaning and purpose of that work. He
      was frequently attacked in the popualr press as having the ultimate aim of
      reviving animal
      > sacrifice, which, while perhaps not literarly true, accurately suggest
      the character fo his thought. It is not co-incidental that today his
      translations are generally only reprinted by occultist presses. He has
      little or no improtance for Modern Neoplatonic scholarship, but is important
      for understanding the Romantic movement in England.
      >
      > Bradley Skeen
      >
      >
      > "Gary C. Moore" <gottlos75@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I shall dig out my Apulieus and apply myself. On THE GOLDEN ASS I have a
      number of commentaries, some on the Latin. I also have his main
      philosophical treatises that I have not read. They are "On the God of
      Socrates," "On the Philosophy of Plato," and "Poetical Paraphrase of the
      Teachings of Diotima." Are you familiar with any of those? They are
      translated (around 1820) by a self-taught Englishman who did all the
      Neoplatonics as well as Plato and Aristotle named Thomas Taylor. Strangely,
      he was possibly the first to translate Greek philosophy into English, and
      certainly the only one who did so extensively. And he did it so well that
      modern translators still take his judgments very seriously. He was also an
      acquaintance of many of the Romantics in England, for instance William
      Blake. As far as I know he is the only person to translate Apulieus'
      philosophical works (all short).
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > neoplatonism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Cosmin I. Andron
      ... Very few - some alternatives are at the end of this message. ... and scholastic and - TT, Iamblichus On the Mysteries = Alexander Wilder, Theurgia or the
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 11, 2003
        > He's also the only source, in English, of quite a few texts.

        Very few - some alternatives are at the end of this message.


        >Point me to a translation of Iamblichus' _De Mysteriis_ that is current
        and scholastic and

        - TT, Iamblichus On the Mysteries => Alexander Wilder, Theurgia or the
        Egyptian Mysteries by Iamblichos, New York 1911/London 1915. This is
        *not* the 'standard - scholastic English translation' but it has one
        virtue: the text used by Wilder [G. Parthey, Jamblichi De Mysteriis
        Liber Berlin 1857; repr. Amsterdam, 1965] is better than the one used by
        Taylor. [Following this link it will lead you to Wilder’s translation:
        http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm%5d

        However neither Parthey nor des Places (CUF 1966) are entirely
        satisfactory. There isn't yet standard English translation however,
        there is in preparation one with a new Greek text as well by J Dillon, E
        Clarke and J Herschbell? (to be out in 2003?)

        >AB>I'll chuck my copy of Thomas Taylor's...

        I wouldn't do that. For that matter I am not sure I agree with some
        points made in the message posted by B Skeen:


        >BS>He [TT] has little or no improtance for Modern Neoplatonic
        scholarship, but is important for understanding the Romantic movement in
        England.

        I dare to say that TT is most valuable today not as much as translator
        but as a modern Platonist who deserves to be studied on his own right,
        and for such a task his original works do not suffice. The choices he
        makes in his translations are also a witness of his *understanding* of
        texts and their passage in his original works.


        >BS>He had a rudimentary knowldge of Greek, but not equal to the task he
        udnertook.

        Not that sure on this matter either: For example concerning his
        translation of Proclus' Theol. Plat. the editors of the modern edition
        (Saffrey and Westerink) have this to say: 'En 1816, le texte grec de
        Portus (the editio princeps published in 1618, my note) est traduit en
        anglais par Thomas Taylor. Malgré la mauvaise qualité du texte du
        Portus, établi sur un manuscrit secondaire, les absurdités évidentes de
        sa ponctuation et l’obscurité de sa traduction latine, il faut
        reconnaître que la grande compétence de Th. Taylor en textes
        platoniciens – il avait presque tout lu et traduit ! – lui a le plus
        souvent permis de comprendre le sens général de la Théol. plat. et l’a
        conduit à proposer quelques conjectures heureuses dont plusieurs ont été
        confirmées par les meilleurs manuscrits.' Introd. Procl. Theol. Plat.
        ed. Westerink-Saffrey, vol. I p.XCV

        and also ‘Taylor a séjourne a Oxford en 1802 et a travaille a la
        Bodleian Library. Il est probable qu’il y a consulte le cod. Laud. 18
        (prod. 1358 ; the ms. was Pico’s own copy at some point - ex libris on
        f.288v ; this text is earlier and possibly better than the one used by
        Portus, my note), c’est peut-être à lui qu’il faudrait attribuer
        certaines notes marginales récentes.’ ibid. p.XCV n.1

        A Segonds records in ‘Liminaire’ p.XI (Proclus et la Théologie
        Platonicienne, Leuven-Paris 2000, Segonds-Steel eds.) that during the
        revival of philological interest in the XIXth century in the works of
        the Neoplatonists confined to the Franco-German space, TT is ‘la
        brilliante exception’.

        On the other hand one should not compare the scholarship of TT with
        today’s standards. Textual criticism as we see it today does not go back
        further than XIXth century (and concerning a *theory* of textual
        criticism only the name of Hort comes to my mind but I could be wrong
        and there might be something earlier??).

        Thus I cannot agree with the next position either:

        >BS>After comapring his translation of Porphyry's Letter to Anebo to the
        Greek text of Sodano,

        What Sodano (1958) had and what Taylor (1818) had cannot be compared.
        One had access to virtually all the existing manuscripts while at his
        best Taylor had probably the 'edition' of Gale (1678)which is rather a
        shady reconstruction...


        >He was frequently attacked in the popualr press as having the ultimate
        >aim of reviving animal sacrifice, which, while perhaps not literarly
        >true, accurately suggest the character fo his thought.

        Neoplatonism didn’t seem to bring with it a good name in the academic
        circles in the Anglo-American world. KS Guthrie’s situation is not much
        superior in the America of the beginning of XXth century. He could be
        more rightfully called an occultist than TT, though the negative
        reaction is still disproportionate compared with the misgivings of his
        scholarship – e.g. see the review of his Plotinus by G Boas in The
        Journal of Philosophy, XVII.13, June 17 1920 and Guthrie’s defence
        (emotional but not bullet proof) in ibid. XVIII.14, July 7 1921)

        Oxford’s only Regius Professor of Greek with Neoplatonic interests
        (yet??), E R Dodds, got his chair only because the recommendation of G
        Murray (the acting RPG) mentioned that ‘Dodds' Neoplatonism is his own
        side-show’ (Murray Papers, Bodleian Library, 76/245-6). And once he got
        the job, his work was not (as he was invited to do) on the Plotinus
        edition with P Henry but an Oxford edition of Euripides’ ‘Bacchae’. [I
        owe this information to the response of R Todd to W Hankey on Blank in
        BMCR 1999.11.19]



        ## English translations of neoplatonic authors as an alternatives to TT:

        - TT, Proclus' Elements of Theology => Proclus, The elements of
        theology, ed. E.R. Dodds, Oxford 1963 (with commentary)

        - TT, Abstinence from Animal Foods => Porphyry. On Abstinence from
        Killing Animals. Trans. Gillian Clark. London, Duckworth, 2000

        - TT, Auxiliaries to the perception of Intelligible Natures =>
        Porphyry's Launching-points to the realm of mind : an introduction to
        the neoplatonic philosophy of Plotinus / translated from the Greek by
        Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie ; with an introduction by Michael Hornum,Imprint
        Grand Rapids, Phanes Press, 1988 [not much better than TT - however
        there is soon to be published a new edition of the text (work of a CNRS
        equipe) with an English translation by J. Dillon !]

        - TT, Concerning Homer's Cave of the Nymphs => The cave of the nymphs in
        the Odyssey : A revised text with translation by Seminar Classics 609,
        State University of New York at Buffalo, Buffalo, Dept. of Classics,
        State University of New York at Buffalo, 1969

        - TT, Collected Writings of Plotinus => Plotinus, transl. by
        A.H.Armstrong, Cambridge Mass., 7 vol, 1966-1988 [One cn also use
        MacKenna in various editions - available also on the www]

        - TT, Hymns and Initiations - Proclus => Proclus' Hymns: Essays,
        Translations, Commentary. By RM van den Berg, Leiden, Brill, 2001.

        - TT, The Chaldean Oracles => The Chaldean oracles : text, translation,
        and commentary by Ruth Majercik, Leiden, Brill 1989.

        - TT, Proclus' Theology of Plato => Not yet a new English translation
        (However the Greek text in the CUF edition (with French transaltion:
        Saffrey/Westerink) is very different from the one used by Taylor )

        - TT, Proclus' Commentary on the Timaeus of Plato => Not yet a new
        English translation but a good translation in French by A Festugiere on
        the standard (Teubner) text.

        -TT, Iamblichus, Life of Pythagoras => On the Pythagorean life,
        translated, with notes and introduction by Gillian Clark, Liverpool,
        Liverpool University Press, 1989. or Iamblichus, On the Pythagorean Way
        of Life transl. by John Dillon & Jackson Herschbell,Society of Biblical
        Literature, 1992.

        - TT, Proclus, On the Subsistence of Evil => Proclus, On the Existence
        of Evils, transl. J Opsomer & C Steel, London, Duckworth 2003 (ACA) For
        the other treatises standard text is in CUF with French translation.



        With every best wish, yours
        Cosmin


        ~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Cosmin I. Andron BA, MA (Cluj), PhD cand.

        Department of Classics
        Royal Holloway College
        University of London
        Egham
        Surrey TW20 OEX
        England

        Phone: 0044 (0) 7759 188 337
        Email: C.I.Andron@...

        Web page: www.cosmin-andron.com
      • Al Billings
        ... Yes, I m familiar with it. I m also under the impression that it is viewed as a substandard translation as well. ... And last year it was supposed to be
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 11, 2003
          Cosmin wrote:

          >>Point me to a translation of Iamblichus' _De Mysteriis_ that is current
          >> and scholastic and
          >
          > - TT, Iamblichus On the Mysteries => Alexander Wilder, Theurgia or the
          > Egyptian Mysteries by Iamblichos, New York 1911/London 1915. This is
          > *not* the 'standard - scholastic English translation' but it has one
          > virtue: the text used by Wilder [G. Parthey, Jamblichi De Mysteriis
          > Liber Berlin 1857; repr. Amsterdam, 1965] is better than the one used by
          > Taylor. [Following this link it will lead you to Wilder's translation:
          > http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm%5d

          Yes, I'm familiar with it. I'm also under the impression that it is viewed
          as a substandard translation as well.

          > However neither Parthey nor des Places (CUF 1966) are entirely
          > satisfactory. There isn't yet standard English translation however,
          > there is in preparation one with a new Greek text as well by J Dillon, E
          > Clarke and J Herschbell? (to be out in 2003?)

          And last year it was supposed to be out in 2002. It's a year or two overdue
          now.

          >>AB>I'll chuck my copy of Thomas Taylor's...
          >
          > I wouldn't do that. For that matter I am not sure I agree with some
          > points made in the message posted by B Skeen:

          I don't plan on doing it because I read (some) Latin, not Greek, and there
          are only two translations into English of all of _De Mysteriis_. There are
          published partials here and there (like Peter Struck's) but none complete.

          Al
        • bradley Skene
          John Dillon has one in Press; it ought to be out this summer, I believe. Al Billings wrote:He s also the only source, in English, of
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 13, 2003
            John Dillon has one in Press; it ought to be out this summer, I believe.

            Al Billings <memoria@...> wrote:He's also the only source, in English, of quite a few texts. Point me to a
            translation of Iamblichus' _De Mysteriis_ that is current and scholastic and
            I'll chuck my copy of Thomas Taylor's...

            Al

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "bradley Skene" <malkhos@...>
            To: <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>; <PhilosophyAncient@yahoogroups.com>
            Cc: <Neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 9:42 AM
            Subject: Apuleius / Thomas Taylor (was Re: [neoplatonism] Fw: QUOTES FROM
            OTHER LETTERS


            > The shorter works of Apuleius were trnaslated at the turn of the century,
            and more recently and authorotatively:
            >
            >
            > Apuleius : rhetorical works / translated and annotated by Stephen
            Harrison, John Hilton, and Vincent Hunink ; edited by Stephen Harrison.
            PublishedOxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 2001.
            >
            > Thoams Taylor was what today would be called a 'pagan reconstructionist'
            rather than a scholar. Most of his translations were out of Latin (from
            Ficino's translation of Plato, for example, rather than from the Greek). He
            had a rudimentary knowldge of Greek, but not equal to the task he udnertook.
            After comapring his translation of Porphyry's Letter to Anebo to the Greek
            text of Sodano, I have to say that Coleridge's characterization of him--that
            he renders difficult Greek into incoprehensible English--is kind to him.
            Taylor wanted to turn Neoplatonism into a kind of fundamentalism. He denied
            the validiity of telescoptic asttronomy and Newton's and Kepler's Laws
            becuase he found them incompatible with the Timaeus, as if the Timaeus was a
            rigid doctrinaire prosciption of the limits of truth, which to my mind only
            signifiies how little he understood the meaning and purpose of that work. He
            was frequently attacked in the popualr press as having the ultimate aim of
            reviving animal
            > sacrifice, which, while perhaps not literarly true, accurately suggest
            the character fo his thought. It is not co-incidental that today his
            translations are generally only reprinted by occultist presses. He has
            little or no improtance for Modern Neoplatonic scholarship, but is important
            for understanding the Romantic movement in England.
            >
            > Bradley Skeen
            >
            >
            > "Gary C. Moore" <gottlos75@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I shall dig out my Apulieus and apply myself. On THE GOLDEN ASS I have a
            number of commentaries, some on the Latin. I also have his main
            philosophical treatises that I have not read. They are "On the God of
            Socrates," "On the Philosophy of Plato," and "Poetical Paraphrase of the
            Teachings of Diotima." Are you familiar with any of those? They are
            translated (around 1820) by a self-taught Englishman who did all the
            Neoplatonics as well as Plato and Aristotle named Thomas Taylor. Strangely,
            he was possibly the first to translate Greek philosophy into English, and
            certainly the only one who did so extensively. And he did it so well that
            modern translators still take his judgments very seriously. He was also an
            acquaintance of many of the Romantics in England, for instance William
            Blake. As far as I know he is the only person to translate Apulieus'
            philosophical works (all short).
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > neoplatonism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            neoplatonism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Al Billings
            ... They said that last year too. Al
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 13, 2003
              Malkhos wrote:


              > John Dillon has one in Press; it ought to be out this summer, I believe.

              They said that last year too.

              Al
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.