Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [neoplatonism] Order of Platonic Dialogues

Expand Messages
  • Yvan Bubloz
    Bonjour, Je suis désolé de vous répondre en français, mais il m est plus commode de m exprimer dans ma langue maternelle. Avant d aborder la question que
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1, 2003
      Bonjour,

      Je suis désolé de vous répondre en français, mais il m'est plus commode de m'exprimer dans ma langue maternelle.

      Avant d'aborder la question que vous nous posez, j'aimerais préciser que la lecture d'Aristote était conçue comme une propédeutique nécessaire à l'étude de la philosophie de Platon. La lecture d'Aristote s'effectuait aussi dans un ordre précis: on commençait par les écrits logiques, on poursuivait par l'éthique, la politique, la physique, et on concluait avec la théologie. Je n'en dirai pas plus, mais je vous renvoie à l'article suivant d'Ilsetraut Hadot: "Aristote dans l'enseignement philosophique néoplatonicien", Revue de théologie et de philosophie 124 (1992): 407-425. Peut-être que cet ouvrage vous sera plus accessible: Ilsetraut Hadot, Le problème du néoplatonisme alexandrin: Hiéroclès et Simplicius, Paris, Etudes augustiniennes, 1978.

      Quant à l'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon, il semblerait qu'il ait été institué par Jamblique. On doit à André-Jean Festugière un très bon article sur la question. Le voici: A.-J. Festugière, "L'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon aux Ve/VIe siècles", in: Etudes de philosophie grecque, Paris, Vrin, 1971, p. 535-550. Il faut remarquer que la lecture ordonnée de Platon n'avait pas seulement une visée intellectuelle mais aussi une visée spirituelle: en parcourant l'oeuvre de Platon, on acquérait une série de vertus qui se hiérarchisaient en plusieurs niveaux: vertus politiques, cathartiques, théorétiques, paradigmatiques (depuis Porphyre) et théurgiques (depuis Jamblique). La lecture de chaque dialogue de Platon actualisait dans l'âme de l'apprenti philosophe une classe de vertus particulière. L'ordre de lecture est le suivant:
      Alcibiade (but: faire prendre conscience au disciple que la philosophie vise la connaissance de soi-même)
      Gorgias (acquisition des vertus politiques)
      Phédon (vertus cathartiques)
      Cratyle, Théétète, Sophiste, Politique, Phèdre et Banquet (vertus théorétiques)
      Philèbe (enseignement sur le Bien)
      Cette première série de dialogues constitue le "premier cycle" de la formation philosophique. S'y ajoute un "deuxième cycle": la lecture du Timée et du Parménide. Ces deux dialogues, dans l'esprit des néoplatoniciens, récapitulent l'intégralité de la philosophie de Platon. Le Timée couvre tout le champ de la physique, et le Parménide expose l'ensemble de la théologie platonicienne et est consacré aux intelligibles (les Formes).

      Je vous demanderais de m'excuser de la longueur du message. J'espère avoir répondu en partie à votre question.

      Cordiales salutations.


      Yvan Bubloz

      ____________________________________________________
      Yvan Bubloz
      Université de Lausanne
      DIHSR - BFSH 2
      CH-1015 Lausanne
      Tél. +41/(0)21/692.27.23 Fax +41/(0)21/692.27.25


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bzingle23
      Thanks for your help, although I am sorry to admit that I can t read it. Could you possibly give me a reference to a book or two (that would be published in
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1, 2003
        Thanks for your help, although I am sorry to admit that I can't read
        it. Could you possibly give me a reference to a book or two (that
        would be published in english), and I can make a trip to the library
        at my school.

        thanks,

        Brett
      • vaeringjar
        ... commode de m exprimer dans ma langue maternelle. ... préciser que la lecture d Aristote était conçue comme une propédeutique nécessaire à l étude de
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1, 2003
          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Yvan Bubloz" <Yvan.Bubloz@d...>
          wrote:
          > Bonjour,
          >
          > Je suis désolé de vous répondre en français, mais il m'est plus
          commode de m'exprimer dans ma langue maternelle.
          >
          > Avant d'aborder la question que vous nous posez, j'aimerais
          préciser que la lecture d'Aristote était conçue comme une
          propédeutique nécessaire à l'étude de la philosophie de Platon. La
          lecture d'Aristote s'effectuait aussi dans un ordre précis: on
          commençait par les écrits logiques, on poursuivait par l'éthique, la
          politique, la physique, et on concluait avec la théologie. Je n'en
          dirai pas plus, mais je vous renvoie à l'article suivant d'Ilsetraut
          Hadot: "Aristote dans l'enseignement philosophique néoplatonicien",
          Revue de théologie et de philosophie 124 (1992): 407-425. Peut-être
          que cet ouvrage vous sera plus accessible: Ilsetraut Hadot, Le
          problème du néoplatonisme alexandrin: Hiéroclès et Simplicius, Paris,
          Etudes augustiniennes, 1978.
          >
          > Quant à l'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon, il semblerait
          qu'il ait été institué par Jamblique. On doit à André-Jean Festugière
          un très bon article sur la question. Le voici: A.-J.
          Festugière, "L'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon aux Ve/VIe
          siècles", in: Etudes de philosophie grecque, Paris, Vrin, 1971, p.
          535-550. Il faut remarquer que la lecture ordonnée de Platon n'avait
          pas seulement une visée intellectuelle mais aussi une visée
          spirituelle: en parcourant l'oeuvre de Platon, on acquérait une série
          de vertus qui se hiérarchisaient en plusieurs niveaux: vertus
          politiques, cathartiques, théorétiques, paradigmatiques (depuis
          Porphyre) et théurgiques (depuis Jamblique). La lecture de chaque
          dialogue de Platon actualisait dans l'âme de l'apprenti philosophe
          une classe de vertus particulière. L'ordre de lecture est le suivant:
          > Alcibiade (but: faire prendre conscience au disciple que la
          philosophie vise la connaissance de soi-même)
          > Gorgias (acquisition des vertus politiques)
          > Phédon (vertus cathartiques)
          > Cratyle, Théétète, Sophiste, Politique, Phèdre et Banquet (vertus
          théorétiques)
          > Philèbe (enseignement sur le Bien)
          > Cette première série de dialogues constitue le "premier cycle" de
          la formation philosophique. S'y ajoute un "deuxième cycle": la
          lecture du Timée et du Parménide. Ces deux dialogues, dans l'esprit
          des néoplatoniciens, récapitulent l'intégralité de la philosophie de
          Platon. Le Timée couvre tout le champ de la physique, et le Parménide
          expose l'ensemble de la théologie platonicienne et est consacré aux
          intelligibles (les Formes).
          >
          > Je vous demanderais de m'excuser de la longueur du message.
          J'espère avoir répondu en partie à votre question.
          >
          > Cordiales salutations.
          >
          >
          > Yvan Bubloz
          >
          > ____________________________________________________
          > Yvan Bubloz
          > Université de Lausanne
          > DIHSR - BFSH 2
          > CH-1015 Lausanne
          > Tél. +41/(0)21/692.27.23 Fax +41/(0)21/692.27.25
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vaeringjar
          Sorry but I hit the wrong button and lost all my reply - here is what I meant to post: Here is a quick and dirty translation of the posting on the order of
          Message 4 of 10 , May 1, 2003
            Sorry but I hit the wrong button and lost all my reply - here is what
            I meant to post:

            Here is a quick and dirty translation of the posting on the order of
            Plato's dialogues. I hope I have not mangled it too badly! I would
            also add a reference to L.G. Westerink, <The Anonymous Prolegomena to
            Platonic Philosophy> (Amsterdam, 1962), pp.XXXVI ff, for the
            Neoplatonic cycles and ordering of the dialogues discussed below, and
            of course much more, including of course the text and English
            translation of the Prolegomena.

            ======================================================================

            Good day,

            I am sorry to respond to you in French, but it is more convenient for
            me to express myself in my mother tongue.

            Before answering the question which you have put to us, I would like
            to clarify that the reading of Aristotle was conceived as a necessary
            propaideutic to the study of Plato's philosophy. The reading of
            Aristotle was also carried out in a precise order: one began with the
            writings on Logic, one followed with Ethics, the political writings,
            Physics, and one concluded with theology. I won't say any more about
            this, except to refer you to the following article by Ilsetraut Hadot:
            "Aristote dans l'enseignement philosophique néoplatonicien", Revue de
            théologie et de philosophie 124 (1992): 407-425. Perhaps this work
            will also be accessible to you: Ilsetraut Hadot, Le problème du
            néoplatonisme alexandrin: Hiéroclès et Simplicius, Paris, Etudes
            augustiniennes, 1978.

            As far as the order of the reading of Plato's dialogues is concerned,
            it appears that it was established by Iamblichus. We owe [thanks] to
            André-Jean Festugière for a very fine article on this question, which
            is: A.-J. Festugière, "L'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon aux
            Ve/VIe siècles", in: Etudes de philosophie grecque, Paris, Vrin,
            1971, p. 535-550. It should be remarked that the ordered reading of
            Plato not only had an intellectual goal, but also a spiritual one:
            while reading through Plato's work, one would acquire a series of
            virtues, which would be ordered hierarchically on several levels:
            political virtue, cathartic, theoretical, paradigmatic (since
            Porphyry), theurgic (since Iamblichus). The reading of each of
            Plato's dialogues actualized in the soul of the apprentice
            philosopher a class of particular virtue. The reading order is as
            follows:

            Alcibiades (goal: to make the pupil aware that philosophy should be
            the knowledge of one's self)
            Gorgias (acquisition of political virtues)
            Phaedo (cathartic virtues)
            Cratylus, Theatetus, Sophist, Statesman, Phaedrus, Symposium
            (theoretical virtues)
            Philebus (teaching concerning the Good)

            This first series of dialogues constitutes the "first cycle" of
            philosophical training. Then a "second cycle" is added: the reading
            of the Timaeus and the Parmenides. These two dialogues, in the spirit
            of the Neoplatonists, summarize the whole of Plato's philosophy.
            The Timaeus expresses the entirety of Platonic theology and is
            dedicated to the Intelligibles (the Forms).

            I would ask you to excuse the length of this message. I hope I have
            responded in part to your question.

            ========================================================


            Dennis Clark
            San Francisco
          • Yvan Bubloz
            Thank you for the English translation of my message! I wrote it in French, because I wanted to give a quick answer to the question we were asked. Next time
            Message 5 of 10 , May 2, 2003
              Thank you for the English translation of my message! I wrote it in French, because I wanted to give a quick answer to the question we were asked. Next time I'll try to express myself directly in English.

              Yvan Bubloz
              Lausanne (Switzerland)
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: vaeringjar
              To: neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 3:53 AM
              Subject: [neoplatonism] Re: Order of Platonic Dialogues


              Sorry but I hit the wrong button and lost all my reply - here is what
              I meant to post:

              Here is a quick and dirty translation of the posting on the order of
              Plato's dialogues. I hope I have not mangled it too badly! I would
              also add a reference to L.G. Westerink, <The Anonymous Prolegomena to
              Platonic Philosophy> (Amsterdam, 1962), pp.XXXVI ff, for the
              Neoplatonic cycles and ordering of the dialogues discussed below, and
              of course much more, including of course the text and English
              translation of the Prolegomena.

              ======================================================================

              Good day,

              I am sorry to respond to you in French, but it is more convenient for
              me to express myself in my mother tongue.

              Before answering the question which you have put to us, I would like
              to clarify that the reading of Aristotle was conceived as a necessary
              propaideutic to the study of Plato's philosophy. The reading of
              Aristotle was also carried out in a precise order: one began with the
              writings on Logic, one followed with Ethics, the political writings,
              Physics, and one concluded with theology. I won't say any more about
              this, except to refer you to the following article by Ilsetraut Hadot:
              "Aristote dans l'enseignement philosophique néoplatonicien", Revue de
              théologie et de philosophie 124 (1992): 407-425. Perhaps this work
              will also be accessible to you: Ilsetraut Hadot, Le problème du
              néoplatonisme alexandrin: Hiéroclès et Simplicius, Paris, Etudes
              augustiniennes, 1978.

              As far as the order of the reading of Plato's dialogues is concerned,
              it appears that it was established by Iamblichus. We owe [thanks] to
              André-Jean Festugière for a very fine article on this question, which
              is: A.-J. Festugière, "L'ordre de lecture des dialogues de Platon aux
              Ve/VIe siècles", in: Etudes de philosophie grecque, Paris, Vrin,
              1971, p. 535-550. It should be remarked that the ordered reading of
              Plato not only had an intellectual goal, but also a spiritual one:
              while reading through Plato's work, one would acquire a series of
              virtues, which would be ordered hierarchically on several levels:
              political virtue, cathartic, theoretical, paradigmatic (since
              Porphyry), theurgic (since Iamblichus). The reading of each of
              Plato's dialogues actualized in the soul of the apprentice
              philosopher a class of particular virtue. The reading order is as
              follows:

              Alcibiades (goal: to make the pupil aware that philosophy should be
              the knowledge of one's self)
              Gorgias (acquisition of political virtues)
              Phaedo (cathartic virtues)
              Cratylus, Theatetus, Sophist, Statesman, Phaedrus, Symposium
              (theoretical virtues)
              Philebus (teaching concerning the Good)

              This first series of dialogues constitutes the "first cycle" of
              philosophical training. Then a "second cycle" is added: the reading
              of the Timaeus and the Parmenides. These two dialogues, in the spirit
              of the Neoplatonists, summarize the whole of Plato's philosophy.
              The Timaeus expresses the entirety of Platonic theology and is
              dedicated to the Intelligibles (the Forms).

              I would ask you to excuse the length of this message. I hope I have
              responded in part to your question.

              ========================================================


              Dennis Clark
              San Francisco


              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              neoplatonism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • fred.fauquier
              You will find the principal texts in: H.Dörrie, Der Platonismus in der Antike. Band 2. Der hellenistische Rahmen des kaiserzeitlichen Platonismus,
              Message 6 of 10 , May 2, 2003
                You will find the principal texts in: H.Dörrie, Der Platonismus in der
                Antike. Band 2. Der hellenistische Rahmen des kaiserzeitlichen Platonismus,
                Stuttgart-Bad Canstatt: Fromman-Holzboog, 1990, p.96-109 and p.356-369

                On the medioplatonic reading order of the Platonic Dialogues in relation
                with neoplatonic order:
                cf. Albinus, Prologos, chap.4-6
                There are two important german translations and commentaries of this text:
                - O.Nüsser, Albins Prolog und die Dialogtheorie des Platonismus, Stuttgart:
                Teubner, 1991
                - B.Reis, Der Platoniker Albinos und sein sogenannter Prologos, Wiesbaden:
                Ludwig Reichert, 1999
                cf. also
                - B.Reis, "The Circle Simile in the Platonic Curriculum of Albinus", in
                J.Cleary (ed.), The Perennoal Tradition of Neoplatonism, Leuven University
                Press, 1997
                - M.Dunn, « Iamblichus, Thrasyllus, and the Reading Order of the Platonic
                Dialogues », in The Significance of Neoplatonism, ed. R.B.Harris, Virginia :
                Old Dominion University, 1976
                - J.Mansfeld, Prolegomena. Questions to be settled before the study of an
                author or a text, Leiden: Brill, 1994, p.28-37
                - B.Dalsgaard Larsen, Jamblique de Chalcis, Exégète et philosophe, Aarhus,
                1972, p.322-340

                Regards

                Frederic Fauquier
              • M. Martijn
                Dear mr Clark, Please allow me to point out a tiny oversight in your very welcome translation: the Timaeus is the summit of physics, of course, and the
                Message 7 of 10 , May 2, 2003
                  Dear mr Clark, Please allow me to point out a tiny oversight in your very welcome translation: the Timaeus is the summit of physics, of course, and the Parmenides in theology. __Le Tim�e couvre tout le champ de la physique, et le Parm�nide expose l'ensemble de la th�ologie platonicienne et est consacr� aux intelligibles (les Formes).
                  __
                  The Timaeus [covers the entire field of physics, and the Parmenides] expresses the entirety of Platonic theology and is
                  dedicated to the Intelligibles (the Forms).
                  __ Best wishes,
                  Marije Martijn



                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • vaeringjar
                  Dear Mr Martijn, Thank you for finding that - I skipped half the sentence. Must never slight the Timaeus! Dennis Clark San Francisco ... your very welcome
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 2, 2003
                    Dear Mr Martijn,

                    Thank you for finding that - I skipped half the sentence. Must never
                    slight the Timaeus!

                    Dennis Clark
                    San Francisco

                    --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "M. Martijn" <m_martijn@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Dear mr Clark, Please allow me to point out a tiny oversight in
                    your very welcome translation: the Timaeus is the summit of physics,
                    of course, and the Parmenides in theology. __Le Timée couvre tout le
                    champ de la physique, et le Parménide expose l'ensemble de la
                    théologie platonicienne et est consacré aux intelligibles (les
                    Formes).
                    > __
                    > The Timaeus [covers the entire field of physics, and the
                    Parmenides] expresses the entirety of Platonic theology and is
                    > dedicated to the Intelligibles (the Forms).
                    > __ Best wishes,
                    > Marije Martijn
                    >
                    >
                  • bzingle23
                    I appreciate all of the help and references concerning Plato s dialogues. One thing that stuck in my mind when I began to look at this topic (I am very new to
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 3, 2003
                      I appreciate all of the help and references concerning Plato's
                      dialogues. One thing that stuck in my mind when I began to look at
                      this topic (I am very new to philosophy) was that I did not see The
                      Meno mentioned in any of the thoughts concerning Plato's dialogues.
                      The only thing I can guess is that this dialogue was seen as a rather
                      elementary introduction to the Forms, and because of this, not
                      considered very useful to the Neoplatonists beyond the beginning of
                      their studies. I was curious if this assumption is accurate at all,
                      and also if any of the Neoplatonists found Plato's idea of learning
                      as recollection important? Or possibly, did they not consider this
                      dialogue to be a literal philosophy but rather some type of analogy
                      for beginners?

                      Thanks for all of your help.

                      Brett
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.