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Re: Editions of Plotinus/Porphyry's Introduction to Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos

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  • vaeringjar
    ... of Altheim ... the ... Forgot to ask, Mike - could you elaborate a bit on the view of Altheim please? Are you referring to Franz Altheim? I am not
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 9, 2006
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      > Might it be possible to find some support here for the view
      of Altheim
      > that in the development of Late Antique thought, the sun goes from
      the
      > position of Supreme Principle to that of a subordinate demiurge ?
      >
      > Best, Mike.
      >
      > >
      > Michael Chase
      > (goya@...)
      > CNRS UPR 76
      > 7, rue Guy Moquet
      > Villejuif 94801
      > France
      >

      Forgot to ask, Mike - could you elaborate a bit on "the view of
      Altheim" please? Are you referring to Franz Altheim? I am not
      familiar with his work, though it sounds ominously as if I should be.
      Thanks.

      Dennis Clark
    • Marilynn Lawrence
      ... Oh, thanks, that is so kind of you to find the passage. You can from passages like these how easy it was to include the sun and moon in concepts of the
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 9, 2006
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        --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Marilynn Lawrence"
        <pronoia@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dennis,
        >
        > This passage is from the beginning of Ch. 2, p. 190-91 and
        > it is not one identified as by Antiochus. (If you are


        Oh, thanks, that is so kind of you to find the passage. You can from
        passages like these how easy it was to include the sun and moon in
        concepts of the demiurgy. One interesting point that Cumont makes is
        that these astrological writers came to see the sun as being
        intelligent (noeros) just because of its governing function for all
        the very rational movements of the other celestial bodies. This was
        actually news to me, as I was very aware of the concept of a noeric
        sun in the Neoplatonists, but not these earlier writers.

        reply: No doubt he cites Valens as an example, who is late 2nd century.
        There's even a Middle Platonic streak in Manilius who is typically cited as
        Stoic through and through.

        He also
        adduces a likely Stoic influence of my old friend, noeron pyr, at
        work here. Intelligent fire to intelligent light to the light of the
        sun to an intelligent sun, is I think the progression he sees.

        reply: at work in Porphyry or altogether?


        I have only two books on the history of ancient astrology - Jack
        Lindsay's, which seems very thorough, though I notice he frequently
        quotes authors in translation without giving a citation of the
        source, and a book by as I recall John Tester, a history of western
        astrology. I haven't really looked at the latter all that carefully,
        but I gather it is a serious if briefer work too. Is the Gundel
        history you cite in your bibliography in your online article the main
        survey? And the Nunger and Pingree for Mesopotamian astrology? I know
        that there are essays on certain subjects by Neugebauer also. Thanks!

        reply: Lindsay is ok, but such a general history that much is lost. Tester
        is generally good, but too short on the ancient. Gundel and Gundel I like
        for their summary of all of the sources including the obscure - they have
        been superceded in some details (such as the identity of "Palchus") but
        otherwise a good survey of sources. Barton's work is really good for the
        overall picture, and she includes more on the interaction of astrology with
        the philosophers. Francesca Rochberg is the person for Babylonian
        astrology... Erica Reiner did some earlier work figuring out what techniques
        and practices survived into Hellenistic. Hunger and Pingree worked out the
        details of the Mesopotamian astronomy, and the transmission to Greek.
        Pingree's good for just about every aspect of this sort of study.

        Best,

        Marilynn
      • vaeringjar
        ... century. ... cited as ... I meant altogether. Cumont only cites the Porphyry as an example - he doesn t really discuss Porphyry in detail. ... main ...
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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          --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Marilynn Lawrence"
          <pronoia@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com, "Marilynn Lawrence"
          > <pronoia@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dennis,
          > >
          > > This passage is from the beginning of Ch. 2, p. 190-91 and
          > > it is not one identified as by Antiochus. (If you are
          >
          >
          > Oh, thanks, that is so kind of you to find the passage. You can from
          > passages like these how easy it was to include the sun and moon in
          > concepts of the demiurgy. One interesting point that Cumont makes is
          > that these astrological writers came to see the sun as being
          > intelligent (noeros) just because of its governing function for all
          > the very rational movements of the other celestial bodies. This was
          > actually news to me, as I was very aware of the concept of a noeric
          > sun in the Neoplatonists, but not these earlier writers.
          >
          > reply: No doubt he cites Valens as an example, who is late 2nd
          century.
          > There's even a Middle Platonic streak in Manilius who is typically
          cited as
          > Stoic through and through.
          >
          > He also
          > adduces a likely Stoic influence of my old friend, noeron pyr, at
          > work here. Intelligent fire to intelligent light to the light of the
          > sun to an intelligent sun, is I think the progression he sees.
          >
          > reply: at work in Porphyry or altogether?
          >


          I meant altogether. Cumont only cites the Porphyry as an example - he
          doesn't really discuss Porphyry in detail.


          >
          > I have only two books on the history of ancient astrology - Jack
          > Lindsay's, which seems very thorough, though I notice he frequently
          > quotes authors in translation without giving a citation of the
          > source, and a book by as I recall John Tester, a history of western
          > astrology. I haven't really looked at the latter all that carefully,
          > but I gather it is a serious if briefer work too. Is the Gundel
          > history you cite in your bibliography in your online article the
          main
          > survey? And the Nunger and Pingree for Mesopotamian astrology? I
          know
          > that there are essays on certain subjects by Neugebauer also.
          Thanks!
          >
          > reply: Lindsay is ok, but such a general history that much is
          lost. Tester
          > is generally good, but too short on the ancient. Gundel and Gundel
          I like
          > for their summary of all of the sources including the obscure -
          they have
          > been superceded in some details (such as the identity of "Palchus")
          but
          > otherwise a good survey of sources. Barton's work is really good
          for the
          > overall picture, and she includes more on the interaction of
          astrology with
          > the philosophers. Francesca Rochberg is the person for Babylonian
          > astrology... Erica Reiner did some earlier work figuring out what
          techniques
          > and practices survived into Hellenistic. Hunger and Pingree worked
          out the
          > details of the Mesopotamian astronomy, and the transmission to
          Greek.
          > Pingree's good for just about every aspect of this sort of study.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Marilynn
          >

          Thanks for the rundown - it's actually Jim Tester, by the way - I
          mangled that a bit.

          Dennis Clark
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