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6054Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!

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  • Melanie Mineo
    Oct 8, 2013
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      how does porphyry's 'On the Cave of the Nymphs in the Thirteenth Book of the Odyssey' play into this, if at all?
      On Mon, 10/7/13, Marilynn Lawrence <pronoia12@...> wrote:

      Subject: Re: [neoplatonism] Re: Calling all astrologers!
      To: "neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com" <neoplatonism@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, October 7, 2013, 7:47 PM


      "Declination" is a good idea, but the
      latitude with respect to the equator wasn't really a
      device considered/interpreted in older astrology (it is used
      in contemporary astrology). There is a concept of declining
      with respect to the kentra, apoklima, but paraklisis
      wouldn't likely be a synomym for it (Porphyry would have
      know apoklima, particularly if he did in fact
      'curate' the Introduction to the

      Your speculation that the point could be the
      nodes of the Moon is intriguing and worth investigating.
      There is very little information about the nodes and how
      they might have been used in the Hellenistic astrology
      texts, but were/are robustly used in India and were imported
      into astrology later (such that through the Persians, the
      nodes make their way into the Dorotheus text as an add on).
      They revolve backwards through the zodiac, which may account
      interpretatively for the reversal or return of disease in
      the Orphic fragment.  

      I also thought it might be something like
      the paranatellonta or dodekaoros. I think he refers
      to the latter in passing in the letter to Anebo (don't
      recall). However, the twelve-hour co-risers are all animals
      except for a boat, so that's not much good in
      determining whether a soul gets to be animal or human. But
      some of the parantellonta are human or gods, so that might
      balance out the range of choices. This whole thing of
      determining animal or human birth falls outside of
      'normal' technical astrology which had humans at the
      center of its concern. Paraklisis is used as a technical
      term in the Orphic fragment, but that doesn't mean
      Porphyry was using it in the same way or according to any
      particular astrological rule. For instance, if it is a word
      for the Moon's nodes, he could be using it as the
      gateways of souls as they pass through then plop onto earth
      through the eastern horizon.  

      On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at
      5:30 PM, Goya <goya@...>


      Thanks for this.

      The passage you reproduce is basically right, I think, but
      Werner Deuse,

      in his Untersuchngen zum mittelplatonischen und

      Sellenlehre, Wiesbaden 1983, is critical of

      interpretation of Porph's passage, I think rightly. He
      points out (p.

      153-54) that according to Bouché-Leclercq, the soul enters
      into the embryo

      before birth, but this is not Porphyry's view, as shown
      by the Ad Gaurum.

      Thanks, Mike

      > Hi Mike,


      > I'm not a specialist but here's how
      Bouché-Leclercq's (*L'astrologie

      > grecque

      > *, p.601-602) paraphrases your passage and the
      following lines of the

      > fragment:

      > "Qu'on imagine a l'Orient, a
      I'«Horoscope», un troupeau d'âme en appétit

      > d'incarnation devant un etroit passage
      allernativement ouvert et fermé par

      > le mouvement de Ia grande roue zodiacale, celle-ci
      percée d'autant de

      > trous

      > qu'elle compte de degres. Au moment voulu, poussee
      par Ia Justice, qu'on

      > appelle aussi Ia Fortune, telle âme, I'âme
      d'un chien, par exemple, passe

      > par Ie trou horoscopique, et, l'instant
      d'apres, une arne humaine par un

      > autre trou."


      > He also notes: "La même theorie est exposee par
      Proclus (in Anal. sacr.,

      > V,

      > 2, pp. 97 sqq., 137, 173 Pitra), qui voudrait voir les
      chefs d'Etat

      > attentifs au moment de Ia *spora*, pour capter les
      âmes de bon aloi. Cf.

      > ci-dessus, pp. 22, 2 et 508.


      > Hope this is of any help and good luck! I am interested
      in knowing what

      > you

      > make of this.


      > Olivier Dufault


      Michael Chase

      CNRS UPR 76


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