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Re: [nde] Re: Christianity

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  • Eileen Lima
    Thank you Denis. I also never believed in a god who was inflexible and punishing and, to be fair, neither do the christians at the church I went to, but I
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 9, 2013
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      Thank you Denis.  I also never believed in a god who was inflexible and punishing and, to be fair, neither do the christians at the church I went to, but I appreciate what you are saying

      You have all given me lots to think about and I thank you for taking the time and caring enough to reply.

      Warmest thoughts
      Eileen


      On 9 July 2013 19:49, rdgiroux <rdgiroux@...> wrote:


      Hi Eileen,

      I was raised has a Christian Catholic and stopped believing and going to church.

      I don't believe God is an authoritarian bearded old man, judgemental, dogmatic, inflexible, demanding and punishing.

      What I know now is that the God I acknowledge is Light, All That Is. Consciousness.

      Light is all that exist (human beings, animals, insects, planets, galaxies), it means that you are your daughter, your husband, your friend, your enemy, your cat, etc…..

      You are your thoughts, you create who you are. Hell is a state of mind, the devil in that state I guess is you. You create that state, you can stop putting energy into it and put that energy to create the state of Heaven . It is your choice.

      You are your own Guru, there are no saviours, everybody can be a teacher, a guide, an angel but you are always the Guru, if it does not make sense or feel right to you, reject it.

       

      Follow your heart,

      Denis


      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
      >
      > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
      > christianity.
      >
      > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
      > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
      > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
      >
      > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
      > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
      > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
      > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
      > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
      > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
      > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
      > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
      > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
      > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
      > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
      > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
      > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
      >
      > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
      > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
      > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
      > as perhaps heaven is too?
      >
      > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
      > answered if we go through Jesus?
      >
      > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
      > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
      > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
      > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
      >
      > Eileen
      >



    • Michelle
      You re welcome. Honestly, if anyone has to use scare tactics to push any idea, which idea doesn t matter, I wouldn t walk away, I d run ;). I agree with Linda
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 9, 2013
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        You're welcome. Honestly, if anyone has to use scare tactics to push any idea, which idea doesn't matter, I wouldn't walk away, I'd run ;).

        I agree with Linda and Noni when they say there is only Love. And with this in mind, with Love there can be no hell or anything negative. Perception is everything :). 

        Best,
        Michelle

        Dear Noni and Michelle

        Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

        I will certainly take on board what you have said.

        Love to you both
        Eileen



        __._,_._

      • Michelle
        A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~ The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist) Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it; Do not
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 9, 2013
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          A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~

          The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist)

          Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it;
          Do not believe in traditions just because they have been handed down for many generations;
          Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many;
          Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books;
          Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders;
          BUT after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

          Best,
          Michelle

          Dear Noni and Michelle

          Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

          I will certainly take on board what you have said.

          Love to you both
          Eileen




        • phoenoxana
          Hi Eileen - I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny s worth: Perhaps one way of
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 9, 2013
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            Hi Eileen -


            I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny's worth:

            Perhaps one way of looking at this might be: Think of Christianity as a nice, large, gift-wrapped box. When you open it up, you find a multitude of smaller gift-wrapped boxes - each representing a different denomination.
            Feel free to distribute them to different people who find those gifts appealing.

            You see, different folks need different boundaries set, different rules to live by, different ways to keep control of their lives. The simplest way to do this is to make a set of rules to define what's "good" and what's "bad." When you think about it, we do this as parents as well, to try to point the best way for our children to get through life. On the secular level, we do this as civilizations and as governments...

            But back to that box:
            If you look at that big box carefully, you will notice that it was constructed by human hands. You will note also that it is finite. Yes, it contains much history, tradition, teachings, and maybe even a little common sense - but it in no way can be complete or infallible. In fact, if you look at it closely enough, you'll notice many cracks and holes in it.

            Some (indeed many) love to confine "God" to the pages of a single book. "Scripture" simply means "writings." I might even consider some of those writings to be "inspired." But contrary to some religious thinking, none of the authors were infallible (gee, a mere 500 years ago I could very well be burned at the stake for saying that). Every one of them was human. Nothing they wrote was infallible, but subject to each author's own limitations.

            It follows, then, that there are many people in this world who worship a very small god. and for me the proof of how small that god is is in the fact that they can only define one way to reach that god. This is called narrow-mindedness, and is what some people need to maintain a sense that they have control of their lives.

            What the NDE can teach is release of all that fear of death stuff, to a point where it becomes totally safe to explore what may lie "Outside the Box."

            Following my NDE, I dove deeply into the history of Christianity, to try to find some truth, and was stunned by what I found.
            For one scholarly book, you might want to get a copy of Elaine Pagels' (renowned Princeton professor & biblical scholar) "Origins of Satan"

            So, in answer to your questions, Eileen:
            Satan can be as real as anyone wants to make him. I myself may have given such a being some power when I was much younger, but my NDE pretty much destroyed that paradigm.

            I think I've had my prayers answered through the means of many people and things. Mind you, they weren't always the answers I wanted to hear, either...

            Much Love to you and yours, and hoping you find comfort in simply knowing you are loved:x

            Chris Y

            --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
            >
            > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
            > christianity.
            >
            > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
            > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
            > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
            >
            > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
            > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
            > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
            > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
            > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
            > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
            > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
            > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
            > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
            > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
            > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
            > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
            > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
            >
            > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
            > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
            > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
            > as perhaps heaven is too?
            >
            > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
            > answered if we go through Jesus?
            >
            > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
            > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
            > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
            > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
            >
            > Eileen
            >
          • Eileen Lima
            Hi Chris Thank you SO much! You have put it all into perspective in such an easy to follow way! This has helped me loads!! I really am overwhelmed at the way
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 10, 2013
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              Hi Chris

              Thank you SO much!  You have put it all into perspective in such an easy to follow way!  This has helped me loads!!

              I really am overwhelmed at the way so many of you have taken the time to explain and try to help me....you certainly have!

              Much love to you and yours too,
              Eileen


              On 10 July 2013 07:55, phoenoxana <clyoungrpt@...> wrote:


              Hi Eileen -


              I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny's worth:

              Perhaps one way of looking at this might be: Think of Christianity as a nice, large, gift-wrapped box. When you open it up, you find a multitude of smaller gift-wrapped boxes - each representing a different denomination.
              Feel free to distribute them to different people who find those gifts appealing.

              You see, different folks need different boundaries set, different rules to live by, different ways to keep control of their lives. The simplest way to do this is to make a set of rules to define what's "good" and what's "bad." When you think about it, we do this as parents as well, to try to point the best way for our children to get through life. On the secular level, we do this as civilizations and as governments...

              But back to that box:
              If you look at that big box carefully, you will notice that it was constructed by human hands. You will note also that it is finite. Yes, it contains much history, tradition, teachings, and maybe even a little common sense - but it in no way can be complete or infallible. In fact, if you look at it closely enough, you'll notice many cracks and holes in it.

              Some (indeed many) love to confine "God" to the pages of a single book. "Scripture" simply means "writings." I might even consider some of those writings to be "inspired." But contrary to some religious thinking, none of the authors were infallible (gee, a mere 500 years ago I could very well be burned at the stake for saying that). Every one of them was human. Nothing they wrote was infallible, but subject to each author's own limitations.

              It follows, then, that there are many people in this world who worship a very small god. and for me the proof of how small that god is is in the fact that they can only define one way to reach that god. This is called narrow-mindedness, and is what some people need to maintain a sense that they have control of their lives.

              What the NDE can teach is release of all that fear of death stuff, to a point where it becomes totally safe to explore what may lie "Outside the Box."

              Following my NDE, I dove deeply into the history of Christianity, to try to find some truth, and was stunned by what I found.
              For one scholarly book, you might want to get a copy of Elaine Pagels' (renowned Princeton professor & biblical scholar) "Origins of Satan"

              So, in answer to your questions, Eileen:
              Satan can be as real as anyone wants to make him. I myself may have given such a being some power when I was much younger, but my NDE pretty much destroyed that paradigm.

              I think I've had my prayers answered through the means of many people and things. Mind you, they weren't always the answers I wanted to hear, either...

              Much Love to you and yours, and hoping you find comfort in simply knowing you are loved:x

              Chris Y


              --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
              >
              > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
              > christianity.
              >
              > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
              > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
              > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
              >
              > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
              > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
              > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
              > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
              > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
              > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
              > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
              > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
              > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
              > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
              > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
              > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
              > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
              >
              > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
              > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
              > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
              > as perhaps heaven is too?
              >
              > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
              > answered if we go through Jesus?
              >
              > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
              > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
              > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
              > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
              >
              > Eileen
              >



            • Eileen Lima
              Thank you Michelle! I love this Sutra! Love Eileen
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 10, 2013
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                Thank you Michelle!  I love this Sutra!

                Love
                Eileen


                On 10 July 2013 04:00, Michelle <93solis@...> wrote:


                A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~

                The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist)

                Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it;
                Do not believe in traditions just because they have been handed down for many generations;
                Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many;
                Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books;
                Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders;
                BUT after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

                Best,
                Michelle

                Dear Noni and Michelle

                Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

                I will certainly take on board what you have said.

                Love to you both
                Eileen







              • Michelle
                Me too :). My husband and I were invited to a Buddhist temple by a Chinese co-worker years ago. She told Kev all about it and he was interested in checking the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 10, 2013
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                  Me too :). My husband and I were invited to a Buddhist temple by a Chinese co-worker years ago. She told Kev all about it and he was interested in checking the place out (since then several more temples have been built closer to our home). We finally made the trip out to her temple. Kev was brought up in a devout Catholic home but considers himself Agnostic today. However, once there, he embraced their ideas. I was already on board years before.

                  One of the temple monks gave us a handout that had this sutra on the front. As I read it, I smiled. I got this message a long time ago when I was just a child. During my white light experience (NDE-like experience) as I call it, at nine, one of the things the being that spoke with me said, was that I needed to leave my mother's church behind. It wasn't just her church, but all religion. Long story but in the end, I found my spiritual path by leaving behind everything I had already heard.

                  It freed me spiritually. It's how I found God/Source. Buried under the pile of ideas that belong to others and their egos.

                  The Chinese woman who told us about her temple, passed away not long after from cancer. Years later interestingly, my oldest son wound up getting a Buddhist nun in training (yes, they have nuns too) for his English teacher at the community college who in turn turned out to be a member of the same UU church I was at one day (I wasn't a member, just visiting). The Buddhist message was following us :).

                  Like I told my husband one day not too long ago - I like the Christ message (of love one another). It's the messengers I have a problem with. It's similar to what Ghandi once said himself - I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

                  Not all Christians are bad of course, but don't be afraid to walk away from anything that doesn't feel right in your heart. If it isn't what a loving God/Source would say or do, walk away.

                  Peace,
                  Michelle



                  Thank you Michelle!  I love this Sutra!

                  Love
                  Eileen

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