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Re: [nde] Christianity

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  • Michelle
    Hi Eileen, ... Short answer - No. Never did my entire life. For me, neither exist. I always said to those I dared to talk to about my experiences, We are
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 9 9:38 AM
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      Hi Eileen,

      So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell?  I know some people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind as perhaps heaven is too?

      Short answer - No. Never did my entire life. For me, neither exist. I always said to those I dared to talk to about my experiences, "We are either here or over there" meaning we are either in a physical body or not.

      Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers answered if we go through Jesus?

      I'm Gnostic. We don't "believe" in anything. Gnostic comes from the word "Gnosis" which roughly translates to "To know". So that means we go beyond mere faith or belief. We know there is a God based on our own personal experience with the Divine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism). I think prayer works or can heal? Yes.

      I would be really interested to hear your views.  I think these questions have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear this....kind, sincere people that they are.  How many of you are christians and if you are do you believe the same as these people?


      See above for me but I find these scare tactics very unchristian. I know a lot of Christians (see https://www.facebook.com/christiansmisrepresented and https://www.facebook.com/TheChristianLeft on facebook. Love their ideas). None of the Christians I know are into scaring people, especially in the name of Jesus or God.

      Michelle
      __,_._,_
    • Eileen Lima
      Dear Noni and Michelle Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions. I am so grateful. You have both reassured me a great deal. I will
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 9 10:36 AM
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        Dear Noni and Michelle

        Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

        I will certainly take on board what you have said.

        Love to you both
        Eileen




        On 9 July 2013 15:38, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:


        I know many people who belong to various churches. I consider them all to be kind, generous, loving people with many other wonderful qualities. Like myself, they have been schooled on an interpretation of the Bible. Their faith is strong because they feel there is truth in what they have been taught. I have learned that it is impossible to change one's belief system once they accepted something as 'true'.

        However, there is a growing 'shift' in 'beliefs' in progress. More people, I believe, are wanting to know more. Questions like: How did the belief in hell, devil, heaven and angels get started? Who was Mary Magdalene? Why do some say that hell is eternal? etc etc. People are discovering that there are many different answers to these questions.

        I went to a First Communion earlier this year and was handed the 'Apostles Creed'. On one line it stated, "He (Jesus) descended into Hell." In most Catholic Churches they omitted this line, but this church did not. It is things like this that people are beginning to ask questions..

        Variety of beliefs is not confined to the Christian Churches. Buddha means different things to different religions too.. Karma has different interpretations.

        So what is 'TRUE'? I believe that this is our journey. I like the quote that says, "Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." ~Andre Gide

        Do I believe in 'God'? Yes! But, I agree with the NDErs who say that God is beyond words. The best words to try to describe God is, 'Pure, Divine, Unconditional Love.'
        I believe a prayer can be to Jesus or to 'God/What Is' - I believe it will be heard. However, prayers are not always answered as we present them. They are answered to 'what is best for the one we pray for.' We should send the love out through prayer. -This is one of the many messages of the NDE.

        Here is quote from Kevin Williams
        "Prayer
        During her near-death experience, Betty Eadie was actually shown how the prayers of people on Earth create spiritual "beams of light" that shoot out from the Earth and into outer space toward heaven. She saw how group prayer creates a large and strong beam of light to God. She saw how a mother's prayer for her children also produces a much stronger beam of light. She also saw how insincere prayers - or prayers of repetition - create very weak beams of light that fall short of the boundaries of Earth and never reach heaven."

        Kahlil Gibran says this about prayer.. http://www.katsandogz.com/onprayer.html

        Love, Noni



        On 7/9/2013 7:57 AM, Eileen Lima wrote:
         
        I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of christianity.

        If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times lately.  My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.

        Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere, not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and sincere.  The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words and messages uplifting.  I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all!  Just to get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed to go to Hell.  This I cannot believe....AT ALL!  How does any christian live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed?  I used to worry about this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.

        So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell?  I know some people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind as perhaps heaven is too?

        Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers answered if we go through Jesus?

        I would be really interested to hear your views.  I think these questions have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear this....kind, sincere people that they are.  How many of you are christians and if you are do you believe the same as these people?

        Eileen 




      • rdgiroux
        Hi Eileen, I was raised has a Christian Catholic and stopped believing and going to church. I don t believe God is an authoritarian bearded old man,
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 9 11:49 AM
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          Hi Eileen,

          I was raised has a Christian Catholic and stopped believing and going to church.

          I don't believe God is an authoritarian bearded old man, judgemental, dogmatic, inflexible, demanding and punishing.

          What I know now is that the God I acknowledge is Light, All That Is. Consciousness.

          Light is all that exist (human beings, animals, insects, planets, galaxies), it means that you are your daughter, your husband, your friend, your enemy, your cat, etc…..

          You are your thoughts, you create who you are. Hell is a state of mind, the devil in that state I guess is you. You create that state, you can stop putting energy into it and put that energy to create the state of Heaven . It is your choice.

          You are your own Guru, there are no saviours, everybody can be a teacher, a guide, an angel but you are always the Guru, if it does not make sense or feel right to you, reject it.

           

          Follow your heart,

          Denis


          --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
          >
          > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
          > christianity.
          >
          > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
          > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
          > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
          >
          > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
          > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
          > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
          > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
          > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
          > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
          > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
          > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
          > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
          > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
          > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
          > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
          > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
          >
          > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
          > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
          > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
          > as perhaps heaven is too?
          >
          > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
          > answered if we go through Jesus?
          >
          > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
          > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
          > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
          > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
          >
          > Eileen
          >
        • Eileen Lima
          Thank you Denis. I also never believed in a god who was inflexible and punishing and, to be fair, neither do the christians at the church I went to, but I
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 9 12:33 PM
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            Thank you Denis.  I also never believed in a god who was inflexible and punishing and, to be fair, neither do the christians at the church I went to, but I appreciate what you are saying

            You have all given me lots to think about and I thank you for taking the time and caring enough to reply.

            Warmest thoughts
            Eileen


            On 9 July 2013 19:49, rdgiroux <rdgiroux@...> wrote:


            Hi Eileen,

            I was raised has a Christian Catholic and stopped believing and going to church.

            I don't believe God is an authoritarian bearded old man, judgemental, dogmatic, inflexible, demanding and punishing.

            What I know now is that the God I acknowledge is Light, All That Is. Consciousness.

            Light is all that exist (human beings, animals, insects, planets, galaxies), it means that you are your daughter, your husband, your friend, your enemy, your cat, etc…..

            You are your thoughts, you create who you are. Hell is a state of mind, the devil in that state I guess is you. You create that state, you can stop putting energy into it and put that energy to create the state of Heaven . It is your choice.

            You are your own Guru, there are no saviours, everybody can be a teacher, a guide, an angel but you are always the Guru, if it does not make sense or feel right to you, reject it.

             

            Follow your heart,

            Denis


            --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
            >
            > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
            > christianity.
            >
            > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
            > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
            > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
            >
            > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
            > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
            > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
            > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
            > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
            > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
            > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
            > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
            > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
            > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
            > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
            > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
            > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
            >
            > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
            > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
            > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
            > as perhaps heaven is too?
            >
            > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
            > answered if we go through Jesus?
            >
            > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
            > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
            > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
            > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
            >
            > Eileen
            >



          • Michelle
            You re welcome. Honestly, if anyone has to use scare tactics to push any idea, which idea doesn t matter, I wouldn t walk away, I d run ;). I agree with Linda
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 9 7:51 PM
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              You're welcome. Honestly, if anyone has to use scare tactics to push any idea, which idea doesn't matter, I wouldn't walk away, I'd run ;).

              I agree with Linda and Noni when they say there is only Love. And with this in mind, with Love there can be no hell or anything negative. Perception is everything :). 

              Best,
              Michelle

              Dear Noni and Michelle

              Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

              I will certainly take on board what you have said.

              Love to you both
              Eileen



              __._,_._

            • Michelle
              A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~ The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist) Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it; Do not
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 9 8:00 PM
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                A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~

                The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist)

                Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it;
                Do not believe in traditions just because they have been handed down for many generations;
                Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many;
                Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books;
                Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders;
                BUT after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

                Best,
                Michelle

                Dear Noni and Michelle

                Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

                I will certainly take on board what you have said.

                Love to you both
                Eileen




              • phoenoxana
                Hi Eileen - I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny s worth: Perhaps one way of
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 9 11:55 PM
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                  Hi Eileen -


                  I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny's worth:

                  Perhaps one way of looking at this might be: Think of Christianity as a nice, large, gift-wrapped box. When you open it up, you find a multitude of smaller gift-wrapped boxes - each representing a different denomination.
                  Feel free to distribute them to different people who find those gifts appealing.

                  You see, different folks need different boundaries set, different rules to live by, different ways to keep control of their lives. The simplest way to do this is to make a set of rules to define what's "good" and what's "bad." When you think about it, we do this as parents as well, to try to point the best way for our children to get through life. On the secular level, we do this as civilizations and as governments...

                  But back to that box:
                  If you look at that big box carefully, you will notice that it was constructed by human hands. You will note also that it is finite. Yes, it contains much history, tradition, teachings, and maybe even a little common sense - but it in no way can be complete or infallible. In fact, if you look at it closely enough, you'll notice many cracks and holes in it.

                  Some (indeed many) love to confine "God" to the pages of a single book. "Scripture" simply means "writings." I might even consider some of those writings to be "inspired." But contrary to some religious thinking, none of the authors were infallible (gee, a mere 500 years ago I could very well be burned at the stake for saying that). Every one of them was human. Nothing they wrote was infallible, but subject to each author's own limitations.

                  It follows, then, that there are many people in this world who worship a very small god. and for me the proof of how small that god is is in the fact that they can only define one way to reach that god. This is called narrow-mindedness, and is what some people need to maintain a sense that they have control of their lives.

                  What the NDE can teach is release of all that fear of death stuff, to a point where it becomes totally safe to explore what may lie "Outside the Box."

                  Following my NDE, I dove deeply into the history of Christianity, to try to find some truth, and was stunned by what I found.
                  For one scholarly book, you might want to get a copy of Elaine Pagels' (renowned Princeton professor & biblical scholar) "Origins of Satan"

                  So, in answer to your questions, Eileen:
                  Satan can be as real as anyone wants to make him. I myself may have given such a being some power when I was much younger, but my NDE pretty much destroyed that paradigm.

                  I think I've had my prayers answered through the means of many people and things. Mind you, they weren't always the answers I wanted to hear, either...

                  Much Love to you and yours, and hoping you find comfort in simply knowing you are loved:x

                  Chris Y

                  --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
                  >
                  > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
                  > christianity.
                  >
                  > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
                  > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
                  > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
                  >
                  > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
                  > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
                  > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
                  > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
                  > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
                  > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
                  > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
                  > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
                  > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
                  > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
                  > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
                  > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
                  > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
                  >
                  > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
                  > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
                  > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
                  > as perhaps heaven is too?
                  >
                  > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
                  > answered if we go through Jesus?
                  >
                  > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
                  > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
                  > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
                  > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
                  >
                  > Eileen
                  >
                • Eileen Lima
                  Hi Chris Thank you SO much! You have put it all into perspective in such an easy to follow way! This has helped me loads!! I really am overwhelmed at the way
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 10 4:56 AM
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                    Hi Chris

                    Thank you SO much!  You have put it all into perspective in such an easy to follow way!  This has helped me loads!!

                    I really am overwhelmed at the way so many of you have taken the time to explain and try to help me....you certainly have!

                    Much love to you and yours too,
                    Eileen


                    On 10 July 2013 07:55, phoenoxana <clyoungrpt@...> wrote:


                    Hi Eileen -


                    I also agree with everything Noni, Michelle (love that Sutra!), and Denis wrote, and will try to throw in my two penny's worth:

                    Perhaps one way of looking at this might be: Think of Christianity as a nice, large, gift-wrapped box. When you open it up, you find a multitude of smaller gift-wrapped boxes - each representing a different denomination.
                    Feel free to distribute them to different people who find those gifts appealing.

                    You see, different folks need different boundaries set, different rules to live by, different ways to keep control of their lives. The simplest way to do this is to make a set of rules to define what's "good" and what's "bad." When you think about it, we do this as parents as well, to try to point the best way for our children to get through life. On the secular level, we do this as civilizations and as governments...

                    But back to that box:
                    If you look at that big box carefully, you will notice that it was constructed by human hands. You will note also that it is finite. Yes, it contains much history, tradition, teachings, and maybe even a little common sense - but it in no way can be complete or infallible. In fact, if you look at it closely enough, you'll notice many cracks and holes in it.

                    Some (indeed many) love to confine "God" to the pages of a single book. "Scripture" simply means "writings." I might even consider some of those writings to be "inspired." But contrary to some religious thinking, none of the authors were infallible (gee, a mere 500 years ago I could very well be burned at the stake for saying that). Every one of them was human. Nothing they wrote was infallible, but subject to each author's own limitations.

                    It follows, then, that there are many people in this world who worship a very small god. and for me the proof of how small that god is is in the fact that they can only define one way to reach that god. This is called narrow-mindedness, and is what some people need to maintain a sense that they have control of their lives.

                    What the NDE can teach is release of all that fear of death stuff, to a point where it becomes totally safe to explore what may lie "Outside the Box."

                    Following my NDE, I dove deeply into the history of Christianity, to try to find some truth, and was stunned by what I found.
                    For one scholarly book, you might want to get a copy of Elaine Pagels' (renowned Princeton professor & biblical scholar) "Origins of Satan"

                    So, in answer to your questions, Eileen:
                    Satan can be as real as anyone wants to make him. I myself may have given such a being some power when I was much younger, but my NDE pretty much destroyed that paradigm.

                    I think I've had my prayers answered through the means of many people and things. Mind you, they weren't always the answers I wanted to hear, either...

                    Much Love to you and yours, and hoping you find comfort in simply knowing you are loved:x

                    Chris Y


                    --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Eileen Lima wrote:
                    >
                    > I wonder if I can have your thoughts and opinions on the subject of
                    > christianity.
                    >
                    > If I can explain.....as a family we have had a lot of difficult times
                    > lately. My daughter decided to go to the Outreach church with her
                    > christian friend to hopefully find comfort and maybe some answers too.
                    >
                    > Last week I went with them and I have to say it was a wonderful atmosphere,
                    > not at all 'church-like' and everybody seemed so kind and accepting and
                    > sincere. The music was great (mostly youngsters on guitars) and the words
                    > and messages uplifting. I really enjoyed it. However, when we went for
                    > coffee afterwards I had some questions I needed answers to and the answers
                    > I received completely put me off and I could not relate to at all! Just to
                    > get your opinions on 2 of them for now.....they assured me there really is
                    > a devil and that if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour then we are doomed
                    > to go to Hell. This I cannot believe....AT ALL! How does any christian
                    > live their life, knowing that people they have loved and cared about have
                    > gone to hell because they weren't christians...or not practising christians
                    > or were perhaps unsure of what they really believed? I used to worry about
                    > this when I was a child and going to this church brought it all back to me.
                    >
                    > So....do you believe in Satan and do you believe in Hell? I know some
                    > people have had bad nde's but it appears that most of them do not actually
                    > go to Hell as such, if there is such a place, or is it just a state of mind
                    > as perhaps heaven is too?
                    >
                    > Do you believe, if you believe in God, that we can only have our prayers
                    > answered if we go through Jesus?
                    >
                    > I would be really interested to hear your views. I think these questions
                    > have been asked before, maybe many times, but it disturbed me to hear
                    > this....kind, sincere people that they are. How many of you are christians
                    > and if you are do you believe the same as these people?
                    >
                    > Eileen
                    >



                  • Eileen Lima
                    Thank you Michelle! I love this Sutra! Love Eileen
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 10 4:58 AM
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                      Thank you Michelle!  I love this Sutra!

                      Love
                      Eileen


                      On 10 July 2013 04:00, Michelle <93solis@...> wrote:


                      A little more food for thought. One of my favorite Sutras ~

                      The Kalama Sutra (Buddhist)

                      Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it;
                      Do not believe in traditions just because they have been handed down for many generations;
                      Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many;
                      Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books;
                      Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders;
                      BUT after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

                      Best,
                      Michelle

                      Dear Noni and Michelle

                      Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.  I am so grateful.  You have both reassured me a great deal.

                      I will certainly take on board what you have said.

                      Love to you both
                      Eileen







                    • Michelle
                      Me too :). My husband and I were invited to a Buddhist temple by a Chinese co-worker years ago. She told Kev all about it and he was interested in checking the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 10 5:31 AM
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                        Me too :). My husband and I were invited to a Buddhist temple by a Chinese co-worker years ago. She told Kev all about it and he was interested in checking the place out (since then several more temples have been built closer to our home). We finally made the trip out to her temple. Kev was brought up in a devout Catholic home but considers himself Agnostic today. However, once there, he embraced their ideas. I was already on board years before.

                        One of the temple monks gave us a handout that had this sutra on the front. As I read it, I smiled. I got this message a long time ago when I was just a child. During my white light experience (NDE-like experience) as I call it, at nine, one of the things the being that spoke with me said, was that I needed to leave my mother's church behind. It wasn't just her church, but all religion. Long story but in the end, I found my spiritual path by leaving behind everything I had already heard.

                        It freed me spiritually. It's how I found God/Source. Buried under the pile of ideas that belong to others and their egos.

                        The Chinese woman who told us about her temple, passed away not long after from cancer. Years later interestingly, my oldest son wound up getting a Buddhist nun in training (yes, they have nuns too) for his English teacher at the community college who in turn turned out to be a member of the same UU church I was at one day (I wasn't a member, just visiting). The Buddhist message was following us :).

                        Like I told my husband one day not too long ago - I like the Christ message (of love one another). It's the messengers I have a problem with. It's similar to what Ghandi once said himself - I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

                        Not all Christians are bad of course, but don't be afraid to walk away from anything that doesn't feel right in your heart. If it isn't what a loving God/Source would say or do, walk away.

                        Peace,
                        Michelle



                        Thank you Michelle!  I love this Sutra!

                        Love
                        Eileen

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