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2012

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  • Tim
    some people think that its not the end of the world but they think some people will be shifting into the 4th dimension.
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 1, 2012
      some people think that its not the end of the world but they think some people will be shifting into the 4th dimension.
    • Venugopal AK
      Dear Tim,                     On 20-12-2012 the world as we know will end is the prediction by some people. For every dooms day prediction
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 1, 2012
        Dear Tim,
                            On 20-12-2012 the world as we know will end is the prediction by some people. For every dooms day prediction there will be thousands of supporters. That is human nature. Actually 20-12-2012 is repeating numbers and God or Nature will not select such a synchronous date to end the world as we know it. It is purely a human invention as is clear from the repeating pattern of numbers. I guess the Mayan calender covering 5000 years ends on that date.
        Regards
        vg

        --- On Thu, 2/8/12, Tim <sir_tim1@...> wrote:

        From: Tim <sir_tim1@...>
        Subject: [nde] 2012
        To: nde@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, 2 August, 2012, 7:11 AM

         

        some people think that its not the end of the world but they think some people will be shifting into the 4th dimension.

      • Valerie
        From Valerie, Actually the 4th Dimension is DEATH, matter through matter. ... From: Venugopal AK Date: 2/08/2012 1:18:24 PM To: nde@yahoogroups.com Subject:
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 2, 2012

          From Valerie,
           
          Actually the 4th Dimension is DEATH, matter through matter. 
           
           
           
           
          -------Original Message-------
           
          Date: 2/08/2012 1:18:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [nde] 2012
           
           

          Dear Tim,
                              On 20-12-2012 the world as we know will end is the prediction by some people. For every dooms day prediction there will be thousands of supporters. That is human nature. Actually 20-12-2012 is repeating numbers and God or Nature will not select such a synchronous date to end the world as we know it. It is purely a human invention as is clear from the repeating pattern of numbers. I guess the Mayan calender covering 5000 years ends on that date.
          Regards
          vg

          --- On Thu, 2/8/12, Tim <sir_tim1@...> wrote:

          From: Tim <sir_tim1@...>
          Subject: [nde] 2012
          To: nde@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, 2 August, 2012, 7:11 AM

           

          some people think that its not the end of the world but they think some people will be shifting into the 4th dimension.

           
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        • bruce budden
                       Hey Tim....        The possibilities of what may or may not occur on that date range from one end of the spectrum being Nada, to
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 2, 2012
                
                    Hey Tim....
             
                 The possibilities of what may or may not occur on that date range from one end of the spectrum being Nada, to the other end of the spectrum which could be total annihilation of the earth itself. The possibilities are only limited to our imaginations......
                 imho, we should just enjoy each day, as ego less as possible, for there will be many who's spiritual path will end before that date, and their egoic worrying will have been for not. Basically whatever occurs, we all will be OK........for Destiny cannot be changed.....
             
                             ;o) Bruce.
             
                

            --- On Wed, 8/1/12, Tim <sir_tim1@...> wrote:

            From: Tim <sir_tim1@...>
            Subject: [nde] 2012
            To: nde@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 6:41 PM

             
            some people think that its not the end of the world but they think some people will be shifting into the 4th dimension.

          • Noni
            Or if one s destiny does change~ then it was already meant to be changed.. -smile.. That is what one person told me that also believes everything is
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 2, 2012
              Or if one's destiny does change~ then it was already meant to be changed.. -smile.. That is what one person told me that also believes everything is predestined.. You wrote a good message, Bruce. But, as you know, I don't believe 'everything' has a pre-arranged path.  Certainly, the earth will continue its path around the sun after Dec of 2012. ~Just know that I agree that it is not worth worrying about and that we should live in the moment as much as we can..

              Not all, but most NDErs believe that the future is not written in stone. Below are quotes from Kevin Williams web site about what some NDErs said about the future..
              <Begin quotes from website>

              One of Margot Grey's NDE research subjects stated:

              During my experience ... I was also shown events that are likely to happen in the near future, but was made to understand that nothing is absolutely fixed and that everything depends on how we choose to use our own free will, that even those events that are already predestined can be changed or modified by a change in our own way of relating to them. (Grey, 1985, p. 123)
               

              Rev. Howard Storm was given information on how the future is not fixed:
              We have free will. If we change the way we are, then we can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States were behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different. (Rev. Howard Storm)
               

              Howard was also told how a single person can change the world:
              All it takes to make a change was one person. One person, trying, and then because of that, another person changing for the better. They said that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That's the only way to affect a major change. (Rev. Howard Storm)
               

              During Ricky Randolph's NDE, he was told virtually the same thing:
              You must return and help others to change by changing your life! (Ricky Randolph)
               

              Dannion Brinkley was told how the future is conditional upon human beings:
              If you follow what you have been taught and keep living the same way you have lived the last thirty years, all of this will surely be upon you. If you change, you can avoid the coming war. If you follow this dogma, the world by the year 2004 will not be the same one you now know. But it can still be changed and you can help change it. (Dannion Brinkley)

              Dannion was also told that the future is not cast in stone:
              The flow of human events can be changed, but first people have to know what they are. (Dannion Brinkley)

              Dannion gives the following advice on how people can change the world:
              The quickest way to change the world is to be of service to others. Show that your love can make a difference in the lives of people and thereby someone else's love can make a difference in your life. By each of us doing that and working together we change the world one inner person at a time. (Dannion Brinkley)
              <end quotes>
              ***
              Now, that said, I know of 3 NDErs who believe in pre-destiny.. So, Who is right? I don't know.. But, let me ask, what 'good' or 'positive effect' can come from a belief that we have no control about what choices we make?
              Love, Noni

              On 8/2/2012 7:31 PM, bruce budden wrote:
               

                  
                      Hey Tim....
               
                   The possibilities of what may or may not occur on that date range from one end of the spectrum being Nada, to the other end of the spectrum which could be total annihilation of the earth itself. The possibilities are only limited to our imaginations......
                   imho, we should just enjoy each day, as ego less as possible, for there will be many who's spiritual path will end before that date, and their egoic worrying will have been for not. Basically whatever occurs, we all will be OK........for Destiny cannot be changed.....
               
                               ;o) Bruce.
               
               


            • bruce budden
                    Hey Noni....      Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it s destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 2, 2012
                      Hey Noni....
                 
                   Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                 
                   Thanks for the quotes, <smile> but in most of them they mention free will, and you know what I think of free will...lol....
                    I just feel it is an egoic ideology....but thats OK.... 
                  
                    Our culture, society, beliefs, lives, are always in a constant state of change, basically every ten years we go through a paradigm shift. We all have an egoic perspective, which most are trapped in, and that change that occurs only comes through each owns perspective. The change comes through actions of one to another, which occur constantly with most not even having a second thought about what they have done, and to most nder's we can see that change and the effects of the actions knowing we have run our leg of the baton race to aide that person on their destined spiritual path. Dannion said it well in your quote... 
                 
                    I would ask, Why do we believe we have to change? 
                 
                    Well, you will believe what is relevant to your spiritual path, for your spiritual growth. So if you want to give yourself more confidence in your belief, then hang with those like minded, it's your inner self that is the only one to believe so, so if others feel the same, then alls good, if they do not, then all is still good if you allow it to.... 
                 
                   Even though life is pre-destined, just like since the beginning of time, we still have to make the choices we are suppose to make to experience and guide us along our paths, which when we do, collectively we have evolved. 
                   I still have to live my life and even though it is destined, I am doing what is I am suppose to be doing with action. I can always think of other things to be doing rather than what I am doing, but that would just be egoic wanting, egoic cravings. 
                So, to answer your question, what 'good' or 'positive effect' can come from a belief that we have no control about what choices we make? 
                    It's not how life affects our self, but how our life affects others.....We only create our own stress through our egoic wants, needs, perspectives, we always have enough in our lives to fulfil our lives at this time.... so we know we will always be OK, so it is basically stress free because we live our lives instead of trying to "create" it through our egoic wantings.
                 
                                ;o) Bruce.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                Or if one's destiny does change~ then it was already meant to be changed.. -smile.. That is what one person told me that also believes everything is predestined.. You wrote a good message, Bruce. But, as you know, I don't believe 'everything' has a pre-arranged path.  Certainly, the earth will continue its path around the sun after Dec of 2012. ~Just know that I agree that it is not worth worrying about and that we should live in the moment as much as we can..

                Not all, but most NDErs believe that the future is not written in stone. Below are quotes from Kevin Williams web site about what some NDErs said about the future..
                <Begin quotes from website>

                One of Margot Grey's NDE research subjects stated:

                During my experience ... I was also shown events that are likely to happen in the near future, but was made to understand that nothing is absolutely fixed and that everything depends on how we choose to use our own free will, that even those events that are already predestined can be changed or modified by a change in our own way of relating to them. (Grey, 1985, p. 123)
                 

                Rev. Howard Storm was given information on how the future is not fixed:
                We have free will. If we change the way we are, then we can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States were behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different. (Rev. Howard Storm)
                 

                Howard was also told how a single person can change the world:
                All it takes to make a change was one person. One person, trying, and then because of that, another person changing for the better. They said that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That's the only way to affect a major change. (Rev. Howard Storm)
                 

                During Ricky Randolph's NDE, he was told virtually the same thing:
                You must return and help others to change by changing your life! (Ricky Randolph)
                 

                Dannion Brinkley was told how the future is conditional upon human beings:
                If you follow what you have been taught and keep living the same way you have lived the last thirty years, all of this will surely be upon you. If you change, you can avoid the coming war. If you follow this dogma, the world by the year 2004 will not be the same one you now know. But it can still be changed and you can help change it. (Dannion Brinkley)

                Dannion was also told that the future is not cast in stone:
                The flow of human events can be changed, but first people have to know what they are. (Dannion Brinkley)

                Dannion gives the following advice on how people can change the world:
                The quickest way to change the world is to be of service to others. Show that your love can make a difference in the lives of people and thereby someone else's love can make a difference in your life. By each of us doing that and working together we change the world one inner person at a time. (Dannion Brinkley)
                <end quotes>
                ***
                Now, that said, I know of 3 NDErs who believe in pre-destiny.. So, Who is right? I don't know.. But, let me ask, what 'good' or 'positive effect' can come from a belief that we have no control about what choices we make?
                Love, Noni

                On 8/2/2012 7:31 PM, bruce budden wrote:
                 
                    
                        Hey Tim....
                 
                     The possibilities of what may or may not occur on that date range from one end of the spectrum being Nada, to the other end of the spectrum which could be total annihilation of the earth itself. The possibilities are only limited to our imaginations......
                     imho, we should just enjoy each day, as ego less as possible, for there will be many who's spiritual path will end before that date, and their egoic worrying will have been for not. Basically whatever occurs, we all will be OK........for Destiny cannot be changed.....
                 
                                 ;o) Bruce.
                 
                 

              • Linda Stewart
                From: bruce budden Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:45 PM To: nde@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [nde] 2012 Hey Noni.... Yes, but it would only be the ego that
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:45 PM
                  Subject: Re: [nde] 2012
                   
                   

                        Hey Noni....
                   
                     Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                   
                  Dear Bruce,
                  Yes, we know...that is your egoic ideology <grin>..and, hey, listen, one can have an opinion even if it flies in the face of the majority of NDE experiencers reports.  We change our ‘outcome’ depending on what choices we make.  That’s the consistent lesson of the life review told over and over and over by people who have had that experience.  But, of course, you are free to express your particular ideology. 
                   
                  BRUCE:     Thanks for the quotes, <smile> but in most of them they mention free will,
                   
                  LINDA:  Well, of course they do!!  They are like most NDErs.
                   
                  and you know what I think of free will...lol....
                      I just feel it is an egoic ideology....but thats OK....
                   
                      Our culture, society, beliefs, lives, are always in a constant state of change, basically every ten years we go through a paradigm shift. We all have an egoic perspective, which most are trapped in, and that change that occurs only comes through each owns perspective.
                   
                  LINDA:  Bruce, how do you think change happens?  Do you think some big finger of God points at us and mandates that “thus and thus” will happen to him or her and he or she will react in this predetermined way?
                   
                  BRUCE:  The change comes through actions of one to another, which occur constantly with most not even having a second thought about what they have done, and to most nder's we can see that change and the effects of the actions knowing we have run our leg of the baton race to aide that person on their destined spiritual path.
                   
                  LINDA:  But, dear friend, that is what we have talked about so consistently here – BECOMING CONSCIOUS!!  And then, we make choices, with our free will, toward one another and about ourselves consciously.
                   
                  BRUCE:   Even though life is pre-destined, just like since the beginning of time, we still have to make the choices we are suppose to make to experience and guide us along our paths, which when we do, collectively we have evolved.
                   
                  LINDA:  You’ve stated this as a fact.  It is not.  It is your opinion.  And it is in great contradiction to many “facts” given by experiencers.  And you contradict yourself...you say we have to make choices but there is no freedom to choose if our actions, thoughts, paths, etc...are predetermined..
                   
                  BRUCE”    It's not how life affects our self, but how our life affects others.....
                   
                  LINDA: Your belief system would insinuate that it doesn’t matter how our life affects others since we have no control over what we say, do or think!
                  With love,
                  Linda
                      

                   
                   
                   
                • Matt
                  Hi Bruce: It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with what God knows what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have many hesitations,
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                    Hi Bruce:

                    It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with what God knows
                    what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have many
                    hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times before coming to the one I consider the best and finally decide to stick with it.

                    God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think of the above as free choice, because God is not making the choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God knows what that final choice would be. What do you think of the above?

                    Matt



                    --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, bruce budden <ttekciw2003@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >       Hey Noni....
                    >  
                    >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                  • Noni
                    It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very predictable.. Again,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                      It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then making a choice from that awareness..

                      Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do with improving our capacity to love..

                      We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..

                      Love, Noni

                      On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                       

                      Hi Bruce:

                      It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with what God knows
                      what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have many
                      hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times before coming to the one I consider the best and finally decide to stick with it.

                      God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think of the above as free choice, because God is not making the choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God knows what that final choice would be. What do you think of the above?

                      Matt

                      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, bruce budden <ttekciw2003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >       Hey Noni....
                      >  
                      >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....


                    • Venugopal AK
                      My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend told why bother about
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                        My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend told why bother about which came first you eat the egg if you want or the chick or both as you may please and leave this arguments to the philosophers who can argue another hundred years or so about this. One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition. 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this world and scientists can now decipher this information from the genes. We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.
                        With love and regards
                        vg
                        I have seen this notice in a friend's house : "I am the boss of this house. I have my wife's permission to say so !"

                        --- On Fri, 3/8/12, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:

                        From: Noni <kiwanis@...>
                        Subject: Re: [nde] Re: 2012
                        To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, 3 August, 2012, 7:10 PM

                         

                        It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then making a choice from that awareness..

                        Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do with improving our capacity to love..

                        We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..

                        Love, Noni

                        On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                         

                        Hi Bruce:

                        It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with what God knows
                        what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have many
                        hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times before coming to the one I consider the best and finally decide to stick with it.

                        God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think of the above as free choice, because God is not making the choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God knows what that final choice would be. What do you think of the above?

                        Matt

                        --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, bruce budden <ttekciw2003@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >       Hey Noni....
                        >  
                        >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....


                      • Noni
                        Dear vg, It seems that there are *many* things are in motion that are beyond our control to change.. Not everything is beyond our control.. I can change myself
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                          Dear vg,
                          It seems that there are many things are in motion that are beyond our control to change..

                          Not everything is beyond our control.. I can change myself in very subtle ways.. Even this will effect how others interact with me.. But, we may need to be willing to see how we can change ourselves..

                          The last few years, when I am in a disagreement with someone, I often try not to say the 'you' word. I have matured enough to know that 'yelling' does very little in getting my point across..

                          I am talking about choices in making 'self' changes. Some of these changes came from a natural order of making more mature choices, but many came from a self dedication to wanting to make changes in myself..

                          If we believe self change is beyond our control, then we are not using 'free will'.. IMO, It sounds like it may be choosing to believe in something that can limit spiritual growth..
                          My vote is 'that life is about 'limited' free will'.
                          Which is why my spouse would (wisely) not say he is the 'boss of this house'.. -smile..
                          Love, Noni
                           
                          On 8/3/2012 10:02 AM, Venugopal AK wrote:
                           

                          My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend told why bother about which came first you eat the egg if you want or the chick or both as you may please and leave this arguments to the philosophers who can argue another hundred years or so about this. One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition. 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this world and scientists can now decipher this information from the genes. We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.
                          With love and regards
                          vg
                          I have seen this notice in a friend's house : "I am the boss of this house. I have my wife's permission to say so !"

                          --- On Fri, 3/8/12, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:

                          From: Noni <kiwanis@...>
                          Subject: Re: [nde] Re: 2012
                          To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, 3 August, 2012, 7:10 PM

                           

                          It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then making a choice from that awareness..

                          Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do with improving our capacity to love..

                          We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..

                          Love, Noni

                          On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                           

                          Hi Bruce:

                          It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with what God knows
                          what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have many
                          hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times before coming to the one I consider the best and finally decide to stick with it.

                          God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think of the above as free choice, because God is not making the choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God knows what that final choice would be. What do you think of the above?

                          Matt

                          --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, bruce budden <ttekciw2003@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >       Hey Noni....
                          >  
                          >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....



                        • Matt
                          ... VG: One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                            --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Venugopal AK <akvenugopal@...> wrote:

                            VG: One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition.

                            M: We actually have some control in the sense that we have the choice of making agreements while still on the other side to have someone as parent, child, sibling, friend, lover, etc...in our coming physical life-time.

                            VG: 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this worlAn
                            d and scientists can now decipher this information from the genes.

                            M: I think there is some contradiction in the above paragraph. An
                            accident, such as the one you described, could alter the length of
                            one's life, no matter how good the genes one has inherited. So can
                            one's life-style. One can choose to smoke two packs a day, eat
                            healthy or unhealthy foods, have adequate physical exercise or none
                            at all...etc... All these can influence our life-expectancy.

                            It could always be pointed out that Churchill smoked and drank heavily, had little or no physical exercise, and was grossly over-weight. Yet he lived to the age of 91. But he was a raving maniac the last five years of his life. And who knows? If he had been
                            moderate in his habits, he might have lived healthily to the age of 125?

                            VG: We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.

                            M: This makes it sound like we aren't really responsible for our
                            behavior. I somehow feel that we are.

                            Best regards,

                            Matt
                          • akvenugopal
                            ... VG : If we agree with this then even before our birth our life circumstances are decided. Every thing is pre-destiny. Even then we do not have any control
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 3, 2012
                              >
                              > M: We actually have some control in the sense that we have the choice of making agreements while still on the other side to have someone as parent, child, sibling, friend, lover, etc...in our coming physical life-time.
                              VG : If we agree with this then even before our birth our life circumstances are decided. Every thing is pre-destiny. Even then we do not have any control over the Genes that we will inherit. It may carry a deadly syndrome. There are hundreds of diseases that that are carried by Genes, eg. Downs syndrome.
                              > VG: 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this worlAn
                              > d and scientists can now decipher this information from the genes.
                              >
                              > M: I think there is some contradiction in the above paragraph. An
                              > accident, such as the one you described, could alter the length of
                              > one's life, no matter how good the genes one has inherited. So can
                              > one's life-style. One can choose to smoke two packs a day, eat
                              > healthy or unhealthy foods, have adequate physical exercise or none
                              > at all...etc... All these can influence our life-expectancy.
                              >
                              > It could always be pointed out that Churchill smoked and drank heavily, had little or no physical exercise, and was grossly over-weight. Yet he lived to the age of 91. But he was a raving maniac the last five years of his life. And who knows? If he had been moderate in his habits, he might have lived healthily to the age of 125?
                              VG : Matt, I was not talking about the length of life. I was trying to point out that even our best efforts has no guarantee of what may happen to us. One may invest much time and effort to acquire driving skills. But another careless driver can come and hit ones car. One may be injured or not in the accident, but an accident is caused, in spite of once best efforts.
                              > VG: We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.
                              >
                              > M: This makes it sound like we aren't really responsible for our
                              > behaviour. I somehow feel that we are.
                              VG : I am writing about pre destiny based on Vedanta of which I am a student. Vedanta exhorts that one should always do work. To be engaged in work always is ones duty. But do it with the firm belief that one is not the Doer. He is. So the prayer :"Let me be an implement in thy hands !!". Also we have no right to desire for the fruits of our actions. Leave it to God. Also take care that ones work, deeds do not hurt or cause harm to others in any way.
                              regards,
                              vg

                              >
                            • Tim
                              not according to destiny of souls and memmories of the afterlife, in those books we do choose our bodies and are scenarios of the life we will live on earth
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012
                                not according to destiny of souls and memmories of the afterlife, in those books we do choose our bodies and are scenarios of the life we will live on earth and sometimes we also choose how we will die.we also do choose by free will how we will live on earth too.

                                --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Venugopal AK <akvenugopal@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend told why bother about which came first you eat the egg if you want or the chick or both as you may please and leave this arguments to the philosophers who can argue another hundred years or so about this. One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition. 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this world and scientists can now decipher this
                                > information from the genes. We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.
                                > With love and regards
                                > vg
                                > I have seen this notice in a friend's house : "I am the boss of this house. I have my wife's permission to say so !"
                                >
                                > --- On Fri, 3/8/12, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Noni <kiwanis@...>
                                > Subject: Re: [nde] Re: 2012
                                > To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Friday, 3 August, 2012, 7:10 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is
                                > omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very
                                > predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making
                                > choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that
                                > is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then
                                > making a choice from that awareness..
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the
                                > 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that
                                > our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we
                                > will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a
                                > system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do
                                > with improving our capacity to love..
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is
                                > how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our
                                > task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Love, Noni
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Bruce:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with
                                > what God knows
                                >
                                > what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have
                                > many
                                >
                                > hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times
                                > before coming to the one I consider the best and finally
                                > decide to stick with it.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my
                                > final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think
                                > of the above as free choice, because God is not making the
                                > choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God
                                > knows what that final choice would be. What do you think
                                > of the above?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Matt
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In nde@yahoogroups.com,
                                > bruce budden <ttekciw2003@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >       Hey Noni....
                                >
                                > >  
                                >
                                > >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought
                                > it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is
                                > destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path
                                > veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                                >
                              • Noni
                                Hi, Tim, It seems that many things may be a part of pre-birth planning. IMO, making choices is *not* free will .. What is our intention for making
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012
                                  Hi, Tim,
                                  It seems that many things may be a part of pre-birth planning. IMO, 'making choices' is not 'free will'..

                                  What is our 'intention' for making choices? What gives one the 'power' to make a choice? That 'power' is 'free will'.. What is our 'intention' in making a choice? That 'intention' is 'will'..

                                  Several months ago, my spouse and I were discussing all the 'close calls' we had (growing up) where we escaped serious injury or death. I know that several members should not be here, but they were told, 'It is not your time'. (Or just sent back).

                                  How many active members had escaped another 'close call' that did not result in an NDE?

                                  Before seatbelts, when a child, I almost got thrown out of the car in a wreck, but my sister held me long enough to keep me in the car. I read that someone is writing a book about the tornado in Joplin, MO. Many people took cover in basements, closets, bathrooms etc. He went around town and took photos of all the houses and found out that the one area (of the house) where the people 'hid' were the only parts of the house not totally damaged.. Children reported seeing 'butterfly people' holding their parents down while the parents where holding them down..

                                  Just my thoughts, this morning..
                                  Love, Noni 


                                  On 8/4/2012 11:17 AM, Tim wrote:
                                   

                                  not according to destiny of souls and memmories of the afterlife, in those books we do choose our bodies and are scenarios of the life we will live on earth and sometimes we also choose how we will die.we also do choose by free will how we will live on earth too.

                                  --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Venugopal AK <akvenugopal@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend told why bother about which came first you eat the egg if you want or the chick or both as you may please and leave this arguments to the philosophers who can argue another hundred years or so about this. One of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)  Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition. 0.9% of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !! There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide how long one will live in this world and scientists can now decipher this
                                  > information from the genes. We have no control over our birth. We have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we have free will in between birth and death.
                                  > With love and regards
                                  > vg
                                  > I have seen this notice in a friend's house : "I am the boss of this house. I have my wife's permission to say so !"
                                  >
                                  > --- On Fri, 3/8/12, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: Noni <kiwanis@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [nde] Re: 2012
                                  > To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Friday, 3 August, 2012, 7:10 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is
                                  > omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very
                                  > predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making
                                  > choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that
                                  > is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then
                                  > making a choice from that awareness..
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the
                                  > 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that
                                  > our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we
                                  > will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a
                                  > system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do
                                  > with improving our capacity to love..
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is
                                  > how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our
                                  > task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Love, Noni
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Bruce:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with
                                  > what God knows
                                  >
                                  > what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have
                                  > many
                                  >
                                  > hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times
                                  > before coming to the one I consider the best and finally
                                  > decide to stick with it.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my
                                  > final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think
                                  > of the above as free choice, because God is not making the
                                  > choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God
                                  > knows what that final choice would be. What do you think
                                  > of the above?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Matt
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In nde@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > bruce budden <ttekciw2003@> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > >       Hey Noni....
                                  >
                                  > >  
                                  >
                                  > >    Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought
                                  > it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is
                                  > destined, so the destiny cannot change, only the path
                                  > veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                                  >


                                • Tim
                                  maybe those butterfly people were guardian angels ? what do you think ?,also children are more open to there psychic abilities.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012
                                    maybe those butterfly people were guardian angels ? what do you think ?,also children are more open to there psychic abilities.

                                    --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi, Tim,
                                    > It seems that many things may be a part of pre-birth planning. IMO,
                                    > 'making choices' is *not* 'free will'..
                                    >
                                    > What is our 'intention' for making choices? What gives one the *'power'*
                                    > to make a choice? That*'power'* is 'free will'.. What is our 'intention'
                                    > in making a choice? That 'intention' is 'will'..
                                    >
                                    > Several months ago, my spouse and I were discussing all the 'close
                                    > calls' we had (growing up) where we escaped serious injury or death. I
                                    > know that several members should not be here, but they were told, 'It is
                                    > not your time'. (Or just sent back).
                                    >
                                    > How many active members had escaped another 'close call' that did *not*
                                    > result in an NDE?
                                    >
                                    > Before seatbelts, when a child, I almost got thrown out of the car in a
                                    > wreck, but my sister held me long enough to keep me in the car. I read
                                    > that someone is writing a book about the tornado in Joplin, MO. Many
                                    > people took cover in basements, closets, bathrooms etc. He went around
                                    > town and took photos of all the houses and found out that the one area
                                    > (of the house) where the people 'hid' were the only parts of the house
                                    > not totally damaged.. Children reported seeing 'butterfly people'
                                    > holding their parents down while the parents where holding them down..
                                    >
                                    > Just my thoughts, this morning..
                                    > Love, Noni
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 8/4/2012 11:17 AM, Tim wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > not according to destiny of souls and memmories of the afterlife, in
                                    > > those books we do choose our bodies and are scenarios of the life we
                                    > > will live on earth and sometimes we also choose how we will die.we
                                    > > also do choose by free will how we will live on earth too.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In nde@yahoogroups.com <mailto:nde%40yahoogroups.com>, Venugopal
                                    > > AK <akvenugopal@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My vote is for free will. I know this is some conceptual thing that
                                    > > is not amenable to democracy. Like the Egg and Chick. As my friend
                                    > > told why bother about which came first you eat the egg if you want or
                                    > > the chick or both as you may please and leave this arguments to the
                                    > > philosophers who can argue another hundred years or so about this. One
                                    > > of my supporting examples are that genes decide 99% of what we will be
                                    > > in life and we have no control over our selection of genes :)Â
                                    > > Actually it is not any laughing matter nor even a smiling matter. But
                                    > > very grave. Indicating the pathetic state of the human condition. 0.9%
                                    > > of the remaining life style is determined by circumstances. Again we
                                    > > have no control over it. One may be the most expert driver in the
                                    > > world. But while driving an inexperienced driver can hit ones car !!
                                    > > There were reports recently in news papers that our genes will decide
                                    > > how long one will live in this world and scientists can now decipher this
                                    > > > information from the genes. We have no control over our birth. We
                                    > > have no control over our death. But we can have the illusion that we
                                    > > have free will in between birth and death.
                                    > > > With love and regards
                                    > > > vg
                                    > > > I have seen this notice in a friend's house : "I am the boss of this
                                    > > house. I have my wife's permission to say so !"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- On Fri, 3/8/12, Noni <kiwanis@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > From: Noni <kiwanis@>
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [nde] Re: 2012
                                    > > > To: nde@yahoogroups.com <mailto:nde%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > Date: Friday, 3 August, 2012, 7:10 PM
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Â
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It is one way to look at it, Matt.. We have been taught that God is
                                    > > > omniscient.. I can say that many things I do in my life are very
                                    > > > predictable.. Again, though.. I don't see 'free will' as making
                                    > > > choices.. I see 'free will' as being aware of a certain choice (that
                                    > > > is not done in automation) and its possible consequences and then
                                    > > > making a choice from that awareness..
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Many NDE stories suggest that 'free will' is something that the
                                    > > > 'heavens' will not interfere with.. Until most of us recognize that
                                    > > > our actions, thoughts and beliefs have an 'effect' on many others we
                                    > > > will remain ignorant of how our choices effect everyone.. There is a
                                    > > > system or purpose to all this.. I believe it has something to do
                                    > > > with improving our capacity to love..
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > We can do this solely as an observer.. But I don't believe that is
                                    > > > how it works.. NDErs know about the 'inner life' and many feel our
                                    > > > task is to bring our 'inner life' to this 'outer life'..
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Love, Noni
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On 8/3/2012 9:21 AM, Matt wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Â
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Bruce:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It seems to me your idea of destiny is equating it with
                                    > > > what God knows
                                    > > >
                                    > > > what our final choice will be. I may, for instance, have
                                    > > > many
                                    > > >
                                    > > > hesitations, made choices, and changed them many times
                                    > > > before coming to the one I consider the best and finally
                                    > > > decide to stick with it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > God, of course, knew right from the beginning what my
                                    > > > final choice in the matter was going to be. I still think
                                    > > > of the above as free choice, because God is not making the
                                    > > > choice for me. I am making my own choice, even when God
                                    > > > knows what that final choice would be. What do you think
                                    > > > of the above?
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Matt
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In nde@yahoogroups.com <mailto:nde%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > > > bruce budden <ttekciw2003@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Hey Noni....
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Ã,Â
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Ã, Ã, Yes, but it would only be the ego that thought
                                    > > > it was it's destiny, but the spiritual path is what is
                                    > > > destined, so the destiny cannot change, only theÃ, path
                                    > > > veers, the outcome is what is destined.... smile....
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Noni
                                    ... I believe their are angels among us.. Linda Stewart s (this group s moderator) started to see lights around people soon after her NDE.. Here is a quote
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012

                                      On 8/4/2012 12:46 PM, Tim wrote:
                                      maybe those butterfly people were guardian angels ? what do you think ?,also children are more open to there psychic abilities.

                                      I believe their are angels among us.. Linda Stewart's (this group's moderator) started to see 'lights' around people soon after her NDE.. Here is a quote from her story..
                                      <Begin quote>
                                      "The truck was one that opened from the sides rather than the back. I watched as the driver walked around to the traffic side of his truck and began unloading his cargo with oncoming traffic approaching. Inside my car, I said out loud in my little southern voice, "Oh honey, you shouldn't do that, it's dangerous."
                                       
                                      On this notable day, I watched, stunned, as the familiar dancing lights around the delivery man swirled, quickly coalescing into the form of a breath-taking, translucent, beautiful woman-spirit, glowing with light.
                                       
                                      Perhaps it was because I had sent a loving and concerned thought about the delivery mans' well-being that the spirit turned her loving gaze on me. For a brief moment, our eyes met. She smiled at me, then, hovering over the unsuspecting man, returned her attention to her charge who was oblivious to the heavenly presence and was busily going about his business. I was thunderstruck.
                                       
                                      Barely breathing for fear the vision would leave, and mesmerized by the vision, I was reluctant to take my eyes off the beauty of the scene; however, from my peripheral vision, I became aware of even more compelling lights. When I was able to tear myself away from the spirit, I glanced slowly at the vista around me and everywhere I looked, every single person in my view had beautiful, loving spirits attending them. People walking nonchalantly down the sidewalk were accompanied by spirits. From within cars, unfettered by physical barriers, I could see the glow and form of beings around the occupants. I saw joggers with flutters of light streaking behind them as their spirit kept pace. As people entered and left buildings, light beings followed. The view before me was filled with brilliant, white light."
                                      <End NDE quote>

                                      Love, Noni
                                       

                                    • Eileen Lima
                                      How beautiful is Linda s story!!!!!!!! That must fill us all with hope and peace!! Thank you Noni for reminding us of that lovely piece of writing! Eileen
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012
                                        How beautiful is Linda's story!!!!!!!!  That must fill us all with hope and peace!!
                                        Thank you Noni for reminding us of that lovely piece of writing!
                                        Eileen
                                        On 4 August 2012 18:06, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:



                                        On 8/4/2012 12:46 PM, Tim wrote:
                                        maybe those butterfly people were guardian angels ? what do you think ?,also children are more open to there psychic abilities.

                                        I believe their are angels among us.. Linda Stewart's (this group's moderator) started to see 'lights' around people soon after her NDE.. Here is a quote from her story..
                                        <Begin quote>
                                        "The truck was one that opened from the sides rather than the back. I watched as the driver walked around to the traffic side of his truck and began unloading his cargo with oncoming traffic approaching. Inside my car, I said out loud in my little southern voice, "Oh honey, you shouldn't do that, it's dangerous."
                                         
                                        On this notable day, I watched, stunned, as the familiar dancing lights around the delivery man swirled, quickly coalescing into the form of a breath-taking, translucent, beautiful woman-spirit, glowing with light.
                                         
                                        Perhaps it was because I had sent a loving and concerned thought about the delivery mans' well-being that the spirit turned her loving gaze on me. For a brief moment, our eyes met. She smiled at me, then, hovering over the unsuspecting man, returned her attention to her charge who was oblivious to the heavenly presence and was busily going about his business. I was thunderstruck.
                                         
                                        Barely breathing for fear the vision would leave, and mesmerized by the vision, I was reluctant to take my eyes off the beauty of the scene; however, from my peripheral vision, I became aware of even more compelling lights. When I was able to tear myself away from the spirit, I glanced slowly at the vista around me and everywhere I looked, every single person in my view had beautiful, loving spirits attending them. People walking nonchalantly down the sidewalk were accompanied by spirits. From within cars, unfettered by physical barriers, I could see the glow and form of beings around the occupants. I saw joggers with flutters of light streaking behind them as their spirit kept pace. As people entered and left buildings, light beings followed. The view before me was filled with brilliant, white light."
                                        <End NDE quote>

                                        Love, Noni
                                         




                                      • Matt
                                        ... M: Since we are able to take part in choosing who our parents in our next physical life will be, aren t we exercising at least partial free will, while in
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 4, 2012
                                          --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, "akvenugopal" <akvenugopal@...> wrote:

                                          > VG : If we agree with this then even before our birth our life circumstances are decided.

                                          M: Since we are able to take part in choosing who our parents in our next physical life will be, aren't we exercising at least partial free will, while in spirit form? Our physical life circumstances were in part chosen by our soul (our real self) before we were born.

                                          VG: in Every thing is pre-destiny. Even then we do not have any control over the Genes that we will inherit. It may carry a deadly syndrome. There are hundreds of diseases that that are carried by Genes, eg. Downs syndrome.

                                          M: Yes, and it's quite possible that our spirit knows more about such
                                          things than we on earth do. Since our parents are the carriers of the
                                          genes that will be passed on to us, our soul would very likely pick
                                          parents that have the genes with those diseases that it agrees to have. Our bodies have to die of something or other. It could still
                                          be a free choice of the soul which way to die, before it even assumes
                                          its physical form.

                                          By the way, geneticists have already identified many genes that carry
                                          different traits, diseases, etc. of human beings. Scientists have
                                          already been manipulating the genes of food plants for some years.

                                          We already know about human ova being fertilized in a petri-dish and
                                          inserted into the womb, and healthy babies have been born as a result. I can only suspect that scientists are going further in their studies and experiments along the lines of people having
                                          healthier babies.

                                          I've discussed only the physical aspects above. How these various
                                          physical aspects could effect our life-styles, how we relate to
                                          people, etc. would be very complicated to contemplate.

                                          Matt
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