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Re: [nde] near-death.com

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  • Noni
    Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain..
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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      Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive. She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
      I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one side of her body her hand was curled up..
      Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
      Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhtjodjiQE

      However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance of improvement..
      Love,
      Noni

      Matt wrote:
       

      Hi All:

      I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
      main page, and in the right column.

      In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
      in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
      in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
      artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
      over what to do.

      Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

      Matt

    • Linda ^i^
      Living death for whom, Matt? For Terry? For her family? Do we know how Terry experienced it? With love, Linda ... From: Matt To: nde@yahoogroups.com Sent:
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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        Living death for whom, Matt?
        For Terry?
        For her family?
        Do we know how Terry experienced it?
        With love,
        Linda
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Matt
        Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 7:14 PM
        Subject: [nde] near-death.com

         

        Hi All:

        I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
        main page, and in the right column.

        In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
        in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
        in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
        artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
        over what to do.

        Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

        Matt

      • Linda ^i^
        We simply don t know what s going on behind vacuous eyes of coma patients, alzheimer s patients, etc. We can project, but my thought is that it is best to
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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          We simply don't know what's going on behind vacuous eyes of coma patients, alzheimer's patients, etc.  We can project, but my thought is that it is best to treat the person as a WHOLE person, even if they can't communicate with you.
          Love,
          Linda
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Noni
          Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 7:54 AM
          Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com

           

          Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive. She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
          I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one side of her body her hand was curled up..
          Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
          Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.

          http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=WOhtjodjiQE

          However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance of improvement. .
          Love,
          Noni

          Matt wrote:

           

          Hi All:

          I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
          main page, and in the right column.

          In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
          in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
          in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
          artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
          over what to do.

          Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

          Matt

        • Noni
          I appreciate what you are saying Linda.. It is true that we don t know what is going on.. Her eyes were not always vacuous.. I was surprised when I felt she
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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            I appreciate what you are saying Linda.. It is true that we don't know what is going on.. Her eyes were not always vacuous.. I was surprised when I felt she remembered me.. I had no idea what to expect when I decided to visit her.. The hospital was clean and she looked to be well taken care of..
            I don't know what to say to someone who can only communicate with one hand and eyes and that I hadn't seen for 35+ years.

            How much does she know? Who does she remember? Is she aware of how much time has passed? The hardest question was, "What do I say to her?" She may be 'whole' but our means of communication is fractured.. Unless she can sense something telepathically..
            I can say that her father, who has to be pretty old (but looks good), has done a wonderful job with visitations and taking her out on wheelchair strolls..
            Half her upper head is still caved in.. Her soul is whole, and that is what I focused on.. So holding her one hand, when it was offered, may have been the best I could do..
            I have pictures of our classmates, but my heart tells me she would not be interested in seeing pictures.. I suggested to classmates, who are on my email list, to visit.. But I don't think anyone has..

            Since she is a spiritual being, having a human experience.. and I believe that we are never alone.. I then must believe that she is 'whole'.. and I am the one that needs something more -and that she is ok..

            Love,
            Noni

            Linda ^i^ wrote:
             

            We simply don't know what's going on behind vacuous eyes of coma patients, alzheimer's patients, etc.  We can project, but my thought is that it is best to treat the person as a WHOLE person, even if they can't communicate with you.
            Love,
            Linda
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Noni
            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 7:54 AM
            Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com

             

            Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive. She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
            I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one side of her body her hand was curled up..
            Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
            Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.

            http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=WOhtjodjiQE

            However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance of improvement. .
            Love,
            Noni

            Matt wrote:

             

            Hi All:

            I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
            main page, and in the right column.

            In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
            in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
            in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
            artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
            over what to do.

            Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

            Matt

          • Mary Shaver
            This i smy belief as well Linda ~ Mary          ... From: Linda ^i^ Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com To:
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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              This i smy belief as well Linda ~

              Mary   Flower  
               
               








              --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Linda ^i^ <el-stewart@...> wrote:

              From: Linda ^i^ <el-stewart@...>
              Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com
              To: nde@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 1:18 PM

               
              We simply don't know what's going on behind vacuous eyes of coma patients, alzheimer's patients, etc.  We can project, but my thought is that it is best to treat the person as a WHOLE person, even if they can't communicate with you.
              Love,
              Linda
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Noni
              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 7:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com

               
              Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive. She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
              I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one side of her body her hand was curled up..
              Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
              Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.

              http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=WOhtjodjiQE

              However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance of improvement. .
              Love,
              Noni

              Matt wrote:
               
              Hi All:

              I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
              main page, and in the right column.

              In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
              in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
              in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
              artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
              over what to do.

              Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

              Matt

            • Linda ^i^
              I think you are spectacular. Too many people would be uncomfortable with her appearance and YOU! - You brought a whole person in yourself to a whole person
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                I think you are spectacular.  Too many people would be uncomfortable with her appearance and YOU! - You brought a whole person in yourself to a whole person you recognized in her
                With love,
                Linda
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Noni
                Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:51 PM
                Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com

                 

                I appreciate what you are saying Linda.. It is true that we don't know what is going on.. Her eyes were not always vacuous.. I was surprised when I felt she remembered me.. I had no idea what to expect when I decided to visit her.. The hospital was clean and she looked to be well taken care of..
                I don't know what to say to someone who can only communicate with one hand and eyes and that I hadn't seen for 35+ years.

                How much does she know? Who does she remember? Is she aware of how much time has passed? The hardest question was, "What do I say to her?" She may be 'whole' but our means of communication is fractured.. Unless she can sense something telepathically. .
                I can say that her father, who has to be pretty old (but looks good), has done a wonderful job with visitations and taking her out on wheelchair strolls..
                Half her upper head is still caved in.. Her soul is whole, and that is what I focused on.. So holding her one hand, when it was offered, may have been the best I could do..
                I have pictures of our classmates, but my heart tells me she would not be interested in seeing pictures.. I suggested to classmates, who are on my email list, to visit.. But I don't think anyone has..

                Since she is a spiritual being, having a human experience.. and I believe that we are never alone.. I then must believe that she is 'whole'.. and I am the one that needs something more -and that she is ok..

                Love,
                Noni

                Linda ^i^ wrote:

                 

                We simply don't know what's going on behind vacuous eyes of coma patients, alzheimer's patients, etc.  We can project, but my thought is that it is best to treat the person as a WHOLE person, even if they can't communicate with you.
                Love,
                Linda
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Noni
                Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 7:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com

                 

                Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive. She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
                I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one side of her body her hand was curled up..
                Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
                Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.

                http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=WOhtjodjiQE

                However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance of improvement. .
                Love,
                Noni

                Matt wrote:

                 

                Hi All:

                I was just reading Kevin Williams (e-mail address as in "Subject" above), the section "NDEs and Suicide", which is about half-way down the
                main page, and in the right column.

                In the main page of "NDEs and Suicide" about 6 inches down, and also
                in the right column, there's an article "a Fate Worse Than Death,"
                in which Williams described the case of Terri Schiavo, who was
                artifically kept alive while family, doctors and politicians squabbled
                over what to do.

                Thirteen years of living death could have been avoided if Terri Schiavo had only made a "living will" beforehand. So, people, check with your doctor about this. Each state might have differences in its laws.

                Matt

              • judyw
                Nonie, I have long believed that tone of voice, touch can be perceived even if there is severe brain damage with no words available. When it comes to people
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                  Nonie, I have long believed that tone of voice, touch can be perceived
                  even if there is severe brain damage with no words available. When it
                  comes to people being in a coma and unable to think with words or speak,
                  those senses can still be there and perceived. I see it as similar to
                  how we typically view babies. They do not have a vocabulary which I
                  think is required for thinking, but we sure do know it is possible that
                  they sense many things as good, pleasant or unpleasant even if they
                  cannot respond.

                  Though the other person may not know what I am saying or who I am, I
                  tend to believe they recognize when someone is paying them attention and
                  if my voice is soft it is non threatening. The worse it would seem to
                  me is to be ignored. Babies do not like being ignored and that may be
                  the case for those with severe brain damage.

                  Maybe the woman did not understand your words, but I bet she could feel
                  that she was special that someone had come to see her.

                  These thoughts are just mine and I can't back them up with any evidence.

                  Judy
                  ----------------
                  It is true that we don't know what is going on.. Her eyes were not
                  always vacuous.. I was surprised when I felt she remembered me.. I had
                  no idea what to expect when I decided to visit her.. The hospital was
                  clean and she looked to be well taken care of..
                  I don't know what to say to someone who can only communicate with one
                  hand and eyes and that I hadn't seen for 35+ years.
                • Mary Shaver
                  Judy , I so agree with you ~ Mary          ... From: judyw Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com To: nde@yahoogroups.com Date:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                    Judy , I so agree with you ~

                    Mary   Flower  
                     
                     








                    --- On Sat, 8/1/09, judyw <judyw1941@...> wrote:

                    From: judyw <judyw1941@...>
                    Subject: Re: [nde] near-death.com
                    To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 4:13 PM

                     
                    Nonie, I have long believed that tone of voice, touch can be perceived
                    even if there is severe brain damage with no words available. When it
                    comes to people being in a coma and unable to think with words or speak,
                    those senses can still be there and perceived. I see it as similar to
                    how we typically view babies. They do not have a vocabulary which I
                    think is required for thinking, but we sure do know it is possible that
                    they sense many things as good, pleasant or unpleasant even if they
                    cannot respond.

                    Though the other person may not know what I am saying or who I am, I
                    tend to believe they recognize when someone is paying them attention and
                    if my voice is soft it is non threatening. The worse it would seem to
                    me is to be ignored. Babies do not like being ignored and that may be
                    the case for those with severe brain damage.

                    Maybe the woman did not understand your words, but I bet she could feel
                    that she was special that someone had come to see her.

                    These thoughts are just mine and I can't back them up with any evidence.

                    Judy
                    ------------ ----
                    It is true that we don't know what is going on.. Her eyes were not
                    always vacuous.. I was surprised when I felt she remembered me.. I had
                    no idea what to expect when I decided to visit her.. The hospital was
                    clean and she looked to be well taken care of..
                    I don't know what to say to someone who can only communicate with one
                    hand and eyes and that I hadn't seen for 35+ years.
                  • Matt
                    ... Hi Noni: Yes, I have read of the possibility of souls leaving the body temporarily when people have sustained injuries and are in a state of coma, as well
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Noni <kiwanis@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Matt, I visited a fellow HS graduate, who was near getting her
                      > doctorate, when she was in a car accident and had her brain crushed on
                      > one side of her brain.. This happened in 1977 and she is still alive.
                      > She can't talk but I have every reason to believe she recognized me when
                      > I went to visit her last year.. She was sitting in a wheel chair where
                      > she spends most of her day.. Her father still visits her everyday.. I
                      > believe that only 2 classmates have been to see her..
                      > I don't know this, but when I sat next to her and started talking to
                      > her, I didn't sense she was there.. Then all of the sudden her eyes got
                      > a spark in them and she smiled and held out her one hand that she could
                      > move. She is fed through a tube but her body looked strong except on one
                      > side of her body her hand was curled up..
                      > Afterward my visit, I wondered if her soul took trips.. If sometimes she
                      > would be 'in' her body and other times she would be traveling..
                      > Here is a you-tube that supports that this may be a possibility.
                      >
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhtjodjiQE
                      >
                      > However, I do have a living will with the request of no feeding tubes or
                      > other machines would be used to keep my body alive if there is no chance
                      > of improvement..
                      > Love,
                      > Noni
                      >
                      >
                      Hi Noni:

                      Yes, I have read of the possibility of souls leaving the body
                      temporarily when people have sustained injuries and are in a state
                      of coma, as well as other states. Thanks for sending me the address
                      of the IANDS youtube. I saved it in my "notebook" and will listen to it again several times before I understand more -- I am hard of hearing. :o)

                      About your friend, how unfortunate to have an accident with such
                      terrible results and since such a young age! It takes a great deal of courage to continue living under such conditions. She reminds me
                      of the actor Reeves who fell from a horse, broke his neck and became
                      paralyzed from the neck down. He lived about 10 years, and Eckhart
                      Tolle said that he had made tremendous progress spiritually during this time. I admire such people.

                      I have something similar to yours that I got from my family physician
                      some years ago. I should carry it on my person, but I haven't done
                      it yet. I think I should update it. In addition to not keeping
                      my body alive artificially, I'd want to be given adequate amounts
                      of anesthetics to prevent the possibility of feeling pain as long
                      as the body still lives. If I should happen to be conscious but am unable to communicate it in any way, it would be awful to die of thirst. Anesthetics would remove the pain and discomfort.

                      Love,

                      Matt
                    • Matt
                      ... Hi Linda: I guess I ve come across the phrase living death enough times, so that it has become a part of my vocabulary. It also sounds dramatic and is
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                        --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, "Linda ^i^" <el-stewart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Living death for whom, Matt?
                        > For Terry?
                        > For her family?
                        > Do we know how Terry experienced it?
                        > With love,
                        > Linda



                        Hi Linda:

                        I guess I've come across the phrase "living death" enough times, so
                        that it has become a part of my vocabulary. It also sounds dramatic
                        and is not accurate. I've got to watch myself.

                        If Terry could no longer experience it, then it wasn't terrible for
                        her. But if she could .... let's just say I wouldn't want to be in
                        her shoes for anything in the world. As for her family, it must have
                        been a nightmare, a long, long nightmare.
                        g
                        Matt
                      • Alan Hippleheuser
                        That point you made Linda, about How do we know how they experienced it? It tore me up to watch my mother die from Alzheimer s and vascular dementia, lapsing
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 1, 2009
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                          That point you made Linda, about
                          "How do we know how they experienced it?"

                          It tore me up to watch my mother die from Alzheimer's and vascular dementia,
                          lapsing into a coma in her last few days...I couldn't stand to watch her suffer.

                          But looking back on it, how do I know she was really suffering?  Maybe it was really
                          me suffering watching the changes in her that were so strange and uncomfortable for me.
                          Someone (I can't remember who) wrote that in the end of our life, we realize that
                          life is so precious that every moment is cherished, even in a painful death. 
                          I'm not sure I agree with that, but I just don't know.  Personally, there are
                          times where I think we gratefully leave a life because we are just so done with it.
                          Maybe the body gradually reflects our wishes to go on by dying. 

                          Alan L. Hippleheuser

                          Near-Death Experience Examiner





                          From: Matt <matt89331@...>
                          To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 9:22:50 PM
                          Subject: [nde] Re: near-death.com

                           

                          --- In nde@yahoogroups. com, "Linda ^i^" <el-stewart@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Living death for whom, Matt?
                          > For Terry?
                          > For her family?
                          > Do we know how Terry experienced it?
                          > With love,
                          > Linda

                          Hi Linda:

                          I guess I've come across the phrase "living death" enough times, so
                          that it has become a part of my vocabulary. It also sounds dramatic
                          and is not accurate. I've got to watch myself.

                          If Terry could no longer experience it, then it wasn't terrible for
                          her. But if she could .... let's just say I wouldn't want to be in
                          her shoes for anything in the world. As for her family, it must have
                          been a nightmare, a long, long nightmare.
                          g
                          Matt



                        • judyw
                          Quiet Mind Newsletter by Dan Joseph Summer 2009 http://www.DanJoseph.com
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 2, 2009
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                            Quiet Mind Newsletter
                            by Dan Joseph
                            Summer 2009
                            http://www.DanJoseph.com <http://www.danjoseph.com/>
                          • Linda ^i^
                            Alan Hippleheuser To: nde@yahoogroups.com August 02, 2009 [nde] Re: near-death.com That point you made Linda, about How do we know how they experienced it?
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 2, 2009
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                               Alan Hippleheuser To: nde@yahoogroups.com  August 02, 2009 [nde] Re: near-death.com
                              That point you made Linda, about
                              "How do we know how they experienced it?"
                                  It tore me up to watch my mother die from Alzheimer's and vascular dementia,
                              lapsing into a coma in her last few days...I couldn't stand to watch her suffer.
                                  But looking back on it, how do I know she was really suffering?  Maybe it was really
                              me suffering watching the changes in her that were so strange and uncomfortable for me.
                               
                              Dear Alan,
                              I think if more people would have this insight that you just shared - "Maybe it was really
                              me suffering watching the changes in her that were so strange and uncomfortable for me".
                              - then when we are confronted with these stunning (to the psyche) times in our lives, we will not project upon the experiencer, but realize the suffering we imagine is happening in our own mind.  If we can own the suffering as ours, we just might be able to be more PRESENT for the person who is actually going through their process.

                              ALAN:  Someone (I can't remember who) wrote that in the end of our life, we realize that
                              life is so precious that every moment is cherished, even in a painful death. 
                              I'm not sure I agree with that, but I just don't know. 
                               
                              LINDA:  You don't have to agree with it - but you can start right now realizing that every now moment is precious.  If you delevop a way of life that is fully present in each perfect, present NOW moment, then when you are in your dying process, you will be present for your death rather than swallowed by your suffering.
                               
                              ALAN:  Personally, there are times where I think we gratefully leave a life because we are just so done with it.
                              Maybe the body gradually reflects our wishes to go on by dying. 
                               
                              LINDA:  There are people who are ready to die because they are sick of life and there are people who are ready to die because they are ot afraid.  I'd rather the latter.
                              With love,
                              Linda

                            • Amandala
                              I think he hit the nail on the head. Sometimes they aren t suffering, especially in a coma. I think they are peaceful within themselves but watching a loved
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 12, 2009
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                                I think he hit the nail on the head. Sometimes they aren't suffering,
                                especially in a coma. I think they are peaceful within themselves but
                                watching a loved one go from one way to an absolute other is hard for
                                us to see. It was hard for me to see my grandfather so ill before he
                                passed. One day he was driving and a week later gone, hospice was
                                brought in as well. Conjestive heart failure and diabetes on top of
                                that. My last visit (goodbye visit) he was kinda "out of it" which
                                was so hard. he managed to get out a "take care".

                                I dream of him often. My mom is jealous.
                                Amanda
                                ---- Original Message ----
                                From: el-stewart@...
                                To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [nde] Re: near-death.com
                                Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 13:51:54 -0400

                                > Alan Hippleheuser To: nde@yahoogroups.com August 02, 2009 [nde] Re:
                                >near-death.com
                                >That point you made Linda, about
                                >"How do we know how they experienced it?"
                                > It tore me up to watch my mother die from Alzheimer's and
                                >vascular dementia,
                                >lapsing into a coma in her last few days...I couldn't stand to watch
                                >her suffer.
                                > But looking back on it, how do I know she was really suffering?
                                >Maybe it was really
                                >me suffering watching the changes in her that were so strange and
                                >uncomfortable for me.
                                >
                                >Dear Alan,
                                >I think if more people would have this insight that you just shared -
                                >"Maybe it was really
                                >me suffering watching the changes in her that were so strange and
                                >uncomfortable for me".- then when we are confronted with these
                                >stunning (to the psyche) times in our lives, we will not project upon
                                >the experiencer, but realize the suffering we imagine is happening in
                                >our own mind. If we can own the suffering as ours, we just might be
                                >able to be more PRESENT for the person who is actually going through
                                >their process.
                                >
                                >ALAN: Someone (I can't remember who) wrote that in the end of our
                                >life, we realize that
                                >life is so precious that every moment is cherished, even in a painful
                                >death.
                                >I'm not sure I agree with that, but I just don't know.
                                >
                                >LINDA: You don't have to agree with it - but you can start right now
                                >realizing that every now moment is precious. If you delevop a way of
                                >life that is fully present in each perfect, present NOW moment, then
                                >when you are in your dying process, you will be present for your
                                >death rather than swallowed by your suffering.
                                >
                                >ALAN: Personally, there are times where I think we gratefully leave
                                >a life because we are just so done with it.
                                >Maybe the body gradually reflects our wishes to go on by dying.
                                >
                                >LINDA: There are people who are ready to die because they are sick
                                >of life and there are people who are ready to die because they are ot
                                >afraid. I'd rather the latter.
                                >With love,
                                >Linda
                                >
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