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Re: New nde member - reincarnation

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  • waynewirs
    Noni, Susana, & Dilpav, Thank you all for your replies. Sorry I wasn t more clear. One of the most prevalent issues when dealing with such rarely
    Message 1 of 3598 , Jan 14, 2009
      Noni, Susana, & Dilpav,

      Thank you all for your replies. Sorry I wasn't more clear. One of the
      most prevalent issues when dealing with such rarely
      experienced...experiences is the terminology.

      By "enlightenment" I mean: Complete loss of identity.
      Identity is who (or what) you think you are.

      So, with that out of the way - enlightenment being the loss of
      identity and the purest state attainable - I still consider myself a
      seeker of enlightenment, though I realized my mistake (and the mistake
      of millions of other enlightenment seekers). I was trying to skip a
      level of development. Not intentionally, just because I didn't know
      (more appropriate, believe) in it.

      Ken Wilber, a highly respected philosopher (google him if interested),
      calls it the "subtle level" of development. This is the level when a
      seeker starts to shift her identity from the ego ("I am Jane"), to
      that of the divine within ("I am a Soul who is living in a body called
      Jane"). The shift is in thinking of yourself AS a Soul, rather than as
      a human being.

      From the Subtle Level (the Soul Level), it's a much easier jump to
      identifying with Spirit (the One without Another, God, etc.). You
      could call this the Lower level of Enlightenment (since you still are
      identified with a "thing").

      Then, from there, it is a much smaller jump to pure Enlightenment,
      where you don't identify with anything. In the Zen Ox Herding
      Pictures, this is the last drawing - where the monk comes back to the
      market, happily interacting with the vendors, but no longer thinking
      of himself as separate.

      Anyway, forgive me for going on and on. I just wanted to clarify my
      terminology.

      My point is, up until I experienced an unexpected past life memory, I
      was completely missing this key level of spiritual evolution:
      Identifying with the Soul.

      I really could care less about my past lives (other than the lessons
      they teach me). What I find important, is that I no longer consider
      myself human. I consider myself a soul. My identity has shifted - and
      this was a quite natural, effortless shift - because of all the past
      lives I have since recalled.

      So recalling past lives is simply a tool to help the seeker
      dis-identify with their ego story - "I am Wayne" - and help them
      recognize the next LEVEL of their spiritual evolution, "I am a Soul
      experiencing a human who is called Wayne."

      It's just a step, albeit an often overlooked step, toward
      enlightenment. But to skip that step is like trying to go from third
      grade straight to college. Some people can do it (Eckhart Tolle,
      Ramana Maharshi, etc), but most of us can't.

      My strong belief that this step is the "missing link" in Western
      spiritual evolution is why I give away both my ebook, "The Implication
      of the Soul" and the guided meditation, "Past Life Recall." I think it
      is THAT important. No agenda. I don't even ask for your email address.
      Linda has reviewed these works and has approved them for posting,
      seeing that I'm not selling them. You can find both at
      http://YouComeBack.net . Full disclosure: Donations are accepted, but
      are not required obviously.

      All my theories are based on my own personal experiences, but it does
      line up very closely with both Hindu philosophy (souls reincarnating,
      learning lessons along the way) and Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama
      is probably the most well know reincarnation-to-enlightenment teacher
      known to most Westerners.

      Hope this clarifies what I said before. Thanks for your time.

      Peace,

      Wayne

      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Dilip Rajaram <dilpav@...> wrote:
      >
      > Noni.
      >
      > According to Hindu philosophy, reincarnation/ belief in
      reincarnation is only to show you how the Karmic Law operates through
      out your series of different lives. It is just to explain the vast
      diversity in human lives. No body believes it is anything anything to
      do with the spiritual development of an individual. On the contrary
      when you get spiritually developed you automatically start remembering
      your past lives. Past lives regression/therapy etc. is nowhere
      recommended. So,I agree with you to some extent.
      >
      > Dilpav
      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Susana Pereira <susana.pereira73@...> wrote:
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Noni <kiwanis@...>
      > To: nde@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:34:22 AM
      > Subject: Re: [nde] Re: New nde member - reincarnation
      >
      >
      > I appreciate your views Susana..
      > Let's make sure we are using the same definition of enlightenment.
      > 1. Enlightenment is the loss of `ego¢ or the loss of the delusion of
      the `me.¢ The average person believes in and identifies with a
      separate ego or `me¢ residing in the body.
      > 2. The final attainment on the spiritual path, when the limited
      sense of "I" merges into supreme Consciousness.
      > 3. The state one achieves when one overcomes all desire; the absence
      of desire.
      > 4. "If I could define enlightenment briefly I would say it is the
      quiet acceptance of what is." ~ 
      > Dyer
      > Hi Noni,
      > I consider enligtenment to be a "process" more than a "state".  The
      "process" of uniting or becoming aware that we are ONE and that the
      interest of One is the interest of All.  I do not think this involves
      the loss or rejection of anything.....ie "ego" but the greatful
      acceptance of All.  Everything will fall into place effortlessly as we
      move deeper into this "process".  There is no "absence" in
      enlightenment....quite the opposite since it is all-encompassing. 
      When you realize that you are ALL "desire" and "ego" as you define
      them will become, not lost, just irrelevant.
      >
      > I suspect that this is the definition that Wayne is using is more
      like this..
      > 1.. Enlightenment is understanding the ultimate reality and escaping
      the endless cycle of existence and rebirth. It is the point where
      perfect wisdom and perfect compassion reach balance.
      > Susana: I do not relate to the above.  I do not believe we "escape"
      anything..... existence is eternal so why would we want to "escape the
      endless cycle of existence"??  I also don't know what Wayne's
      definition of enlightenment is...I speak only from the viewpoint of my
      personal definition.
      > 2. Enlightenment broadly means wisdom or understanding enabling
      clarity of perception
      > Susana: Noni, everything that we do is motivated by desire in one
      form or another.  It may be the desire to feel good about who we are
      or what we stand for.  It may be the desire to give and receive Love. 
      It may be the desire to reach the next level of enlightenment.  Desire
      is momentum.  It is the direction of this momentum that is of real
      relevance.  As for your question regarding a Holocaust
      experience...... I do not know how the information would lead YOU to
      enlightement, it would depend on your personal perspective of the
      information that you receive. 
      >
      > I feel that someone who calls himself an 'enlightenment seeker' and
      directs people to a web page so they can do past live regression -has
      an agenda.
      > I believe that most here, on this message board, would define
      enlightenment as 'awakening to our true selves by shedding one's ego'..
      > Susana: Someone else's agenda is someone else's agenda...if it does
      not serve us we do not entertain it further.  I do not know what Wayne
      stands for, I am only expressing my opinion.  I have not visited his
      website nor have I investigated past life regression.  I neither
      reject nor embrace reincarnation at this point.  
      >
      > BTW.. Here is quote..
      > Wayne: "(Chose to come to this planet) You actually DO choose it
      because, as the Soul, you will do anything to clear your karma
      (regrets, desires) as these pull you
      > apart from Spirit (God, Nirvana, whatever your term)."
      > Susana: I believe that we choose to incarnate.  I do not know the
      reasons but believe that they are personal to each individual soul and
      that they serve the process of enlightenement as I describe it above..
      >
      > How do you interpret what he is saying??
      > Susana: I think he is saying that we incarnate to cleanse our soul
      from previous "negative" motivations that have contributed to
      separation from spirit.
      >
      > Our soul will do anything to clear our karma?
      > Susana: I believe that his choice of words is questionable.  The
      words he uses make it seems like the soul is somehow " desperately"
      seeking to tear away the chains of Karma that are pulling it into an
      undesirable cycle of rebirth.... I choose to look past the dramatic
      wording.....
      >
      > Love,
      > Noni
      >
      > Susana Pereira wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Noni <kiwanis@att. net>
      > To: nde@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:50:18 PM
      > Subject: Re: [nde] Re: New nde member - reincarnation
      >
      >
      > An enlightenment seeker? by recalling past lives?
      > I guess I don't understand how anyone is going to reach
      enlightenment by researching past lives..
      > Susana: Dear Noni, everyone has their indivudual path to
      enlightment, we do not have to understand someone else's path.
      > I have read many things that came from spiritual teachings. Even
      those who believe in Karma do not say that we need to do past life
      regression to be able to release ourselves from the karmic force..
      > Why do you think reincarnation is influenced by our unconscious
      conditioning? I think this life is influenced by our unconscious
      conditioning. .
      > Susana: Consider that reviewing a life, whether current or past, or
      somebody else's for that matter, must offer great opportunity for
      increasing our awareness... ..leading to enlightenment.
      >
      > Is your beliefs based on Hindu teachings?
      > Howard Storm didn't say we did not choose this planet, he said we
      would not choose it for reincarnation. .
      > Why wouldn' t we?  We did this time around didn't we?  I am willing
      to bet there are a large number of highly evolved human beings on this
      earth (very large number!!).  The universal consciousness of this
      planet is rising and will continue to do so faster than ever before
      (this is my opinion).
      > (I don't know if he is right either) I don't know why, yet, you feel
      you know something he doesn't.. WHY do you say he is not right? Where
      did you get your insight?
      > Susana: in-sight (from within)....we sometimes undervalue the
      knowledge or intuition that is born from within and rely to heavily on
      the words and teachings of others to prove we are right or to validate
      our opinions. 
      >
      > I have read a little about past life therapy and I don't see this as
      a path to enlightenment. . It is more reasons for ego to keep us in
      thought... It can only add more drama to the ego we already have.. If
      we have past debts to pay, then why would these be hidden and only
      revealed through hypnosis when we are unconscious?
      > Susana: IMO everything that is relevant will be revealed via the
      most approprate vehicle...in some cases this may indeed be through
      hypnosis.  BTW, who said anything about "past debts to pay"? Past life
      regression may be viewed as a gathering of knowledge that may be
      usefull to our current experience.  We are not paying anything...quite
      the opposite.... ..
      >
      > Noni
      >
      >
      > I don't define enlightenment as the last two.. To desire to know
      about a past life is still a desire.. Let's say I was told that in my
      past life. Maybe I was killed during the Holocaust. How is this
      information going to lead me to the first definitions of enlightenment?
      >
    • el-stewart@att.net
      Hello, This is an automated email message to let you know that lemewmimi joined your nde group. Dear Friend, Welcome to our group.
      Message 3598 of 3598 , Jan 9, 2016
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