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Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie

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  • Linda ^i^ Stewart
    Paul Harper nde@yahoogroups.com November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie Dear Noni, What ticks me off about replies about the negative boss boils down to
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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       Paul Harper  nde@yahoogroups.com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie
      Dear Noni,
       
      What ticks me off about replies about the negative boss boils down to this.
      Linda seems to change her words about a situation depending on who she is talking to.
       
      Dear Paul,
      ?  I feel pretty consistent with what I say. 
       
      PAUL:  She has said in the past that to live in the now, one must must ignore the past and future,
       
      LINDA:  I think if you'll go back, what I have actually said is to not identify with the past or future, that the only time that you have is NOW.
       
      PAUL:  and when negativity is recognized in the now, basically ignore or shun them.  I may be paraphrasing the words, but that is what I take from her words.
       
      LINDA:  I can't recall ever saying to ignore or shun someone.  I believe what I have suggested is to keep one's peace within themselves and the outer world will not affect them.
       
      PAUL:  However, when I recognize negativity, I have compounded the problem by merely recognizing the negativity.  Thus making me also a negative person.
       
      LINDA:  Are you still paraphrasing or do you recognize that if you see negativity in another, you can only see it if you have negativity in yourself?  You don't even know Ellie's boss and you are pissed off at her.  There is a place within in which you can remain neutral.  If a person steps over boundaries that you find unreasonable, then you draw boundaries.  For instance, I would not let an inebriated person shout obsenities at my grandson because he thoughts kids were a waste of space.  It's not that I would try to correct the other person, I would remove my grandson from that environment.
       
      PAUL:  When Linda recognizes negatively, why isn't she or others who recognize others as being negative while living in the now not also make them equally negative as I.  We both recognized negativity, but only one of us became equally negative, while the anointed ones are considered spiritually elevated?
       
      LINDA:  The difference (and I don't consider myself annointed) is that one can look at another who is living in negativity *without making judgments* about them.  They simply recognize the other is in pain/fear and does not judge them for it.  They do not disturb their own internal peace.
       
      PAUL:  Wouldn't you consider ignoring or shunning a 'child of God' from your life as being as guilty of negativity as the person sharing guidance and laying down boundaries?  Maybe they should be told how they are perceived and give themselves a chance to redeem themselves by changing the way they treat others,  Ignoring them seems selfish and not at all spiritual.
       
      LINDA:  When I have been in a negative state myself, I have responded better to people who wrap me in love rather than people who exascerbate my own feelings of negativity by telling me what a poot I am.
       
      PAUL:  There are times when it seems there is a double standard here.  If two people both recognize negativity, why are they not both guilty of creating negativity? 
       
      LINDA:  You see them as a waste of skin; I see them as a beloved child of God who is in a temporary state of negativity.  Who has perpetuated the negativity?
       
      PAUL:  And why is the one who recognized negativity and then shuns them without helping them learn how they are perceived, the proper one to follow?
       
      LINDA:  You keep using the word "shunned".  Have you felt shunned at times when you have felt negative?
        
      With love,
      Linda
       
    • Paul Harper
      Paul:  I hit send too quickly on the first answer.  Let me try this again ...  Paul Harper  nde@yahoogroups.com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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        Paul:  I hit send too quickly on the first answer.  Let me try this again

        --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Linda ^i^ Stewart <el-stewart@...> wrote:

         Paul Harper  nde@yahoogroups.com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie
        Dear Noni,
         
        What ticks me off about replies about the negative boss boils down to this.
        Linda seems to change her words about a situation depending on who she is talking to.
         
        Dear Paul,
        ?  I feel pretty consistent with what I say. 
         
        Paul:  Well that's nice. 
         
        PAUL:  She has said in the past that to live in the now, one must must ignore the past and future,
         
        LINDA:  I think if you'll go back, what I have actually said is to not identify with the past or future, that the only time that you have is NOW.
         
        Paul:  Yes you did say that, but you also said more about not recognizing the negative while you are in the now. 
         
        PAUL:  and when negativity is recognized in the now, basically ignore or shun them.  I may be paraphrasing the words, but that is what I take from her words.
         
        LINDA:  I can't recall ever saying to ignore or shun someone.  I believe what I have suggested is to keep one's peace within themselves and the outer world will not affect them.
         
        Paul:  You are playing semantics now Linda.  You may have never said those words but from what you said, and the writing tone, that is the meaning I took from them.  Get rid of all thoughts and emotions, do not linger in the past or the future and and do not allow the negative in your life.  That is how I 'read it'.
         
        PAUL:  However, when I recognize negativity, I have compounded the problem by merely recognizing the negativity.  Thus making me also a negative person.
         
        LINDA:  Are you still paraphrasing or do you recognize that if you see negativity in another, you can only see it if you have negativity in yourself?  You don't even know Ellie's boss and you are pissed off at her.  There is a place within in which you can remain neutral.  If a person steps over boundaries that you find unreasonable, then you draw boundaries.  For instance, I would not let an inebriated person shout obsenities at my grandson because he thoughts kids were a waste of space.  It's not that I would try to correct the other person, I would remove my grandson from that environment.
         
        Paul: I always have to paraphrase to let you know how I understood your words.  Ellie described her boss and all I heard from Ellie was that her boss is an immature and negative stinker who should be told that her behavior wasn't acceptable.  Place some guidelines and move on.  Ellie should not put up with such a obviously negative person all day.
         
        PAUL:  When Linda recognizes negatively, why isn't she or others who recognize others as being negative while living in the now not also make them equally negative as I.  We both recognized negativity, but only one of us became equally negative, while the anointed ones are considered spiritually elevated?
         
        LINDA:  The difference (and I don't consider myself annointed) is that one can look at another who is living in negativity *without making judgments* about them.  They simply recognize the other is in pain/fear and does not judge them for it.  They do not disturb their own internal peace.
         
        Paul:  No I'm sure they are very comfortable in their 'skin'.  But Ellie was not comfortable being around such negative behavior and approached this group about it.  But you told me that If I find the boss as a negative person, that also makes me negative.  And I guess Ellie to is now tainted with negativism too.  But not the boss, is that what you are saying?
         
        PAUL:  Wouldn't you consider ignoring or shunning a 'child of God' from your life as being as guilty of negativity as the person sharing guidance and laying down boundaries?  Maybe they should be told how they are perceived and give themselves a chance to redeem themselves by changing the way they treat others,  Ignoring them seems selfish and not at all spiritual.
         
        LINDA:  When I have been in a negative state myself, I have responded better to people who wrap me in love rather than people who exascerbate my own feelings of negativity by telling me what a poot I am.
         
        Paul:  Well maybe you were a spoiled brat who needed some straight talk.  So you are saying that the poor boss has no part in this and Ellie should give her a hug each morning and each night after work?  If she doesn't the boss has a right to treat her with such disrespect and bad behavior?  (Dear Ellie, this no longer has anything to do with you, I am just trying to make a point.)  Well Linda, maybe someone needed to tell you you were causing a disruption and a feeling of negativity around others and that you were acting like a poot.  (What is a poot?)
         
        PAUL:  There are times when it seems there is a double standard here.  If two people both recognize negativity, why are they not both guilty of creating negativity? 
         
        LINDA:  You see them as a waste of skin; I see them as a beloved child of God who is in a temporary state of negativity.  Who has perpetuated the negativity?
         
        Paul:  Who perpetuated the Negativity?  According to your previous post on this subject, you did.  You recognized the poor person and judged her to be temporally in a state of negativity.  You recognized/judged the person, so I guess according to your rules, YOU my dear friend perpetuated the negativity. 
         
        A waste of skin is like a poot - they are just expressions.  When the boss was acting like a waste of skin, someone needed to tell her how her actions were effecting others.  When you were acting like a poot, some one should have known to tell you how your actions were effecting them.  It sounds like those in this group are afraid of tough love.  It is just the giving of direct information to those who need it.  You may say that is judging others.  Well, Duh - Linda, how else are you going to help them. smothering them with sweet love just draws out the process and gives them a false feeling that their treatment to others is just fine.  Until someday an employee snaps and gives her a witch pancake in the face and tells her to be quiet and take out the trash if wants to be helpful.
         
        PAUL:  And why is the one who recognized negativity and then shuns them without helping them learn how they are perceived, the proper one to follow?
         
        LINDA:  You keep using the word "shunned".  Have you felt shunned at times when you have felt negative?
         
        Paul:  So you didn't have and answer to this one at all?  Have I ever felt shunned?  Heck no, I wouldn't allow it.  Have you ever been shunned?  
          
        With love,
        Linda
         
        With more love,
        Paul

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      • Amandala
        Human waste, so it may seem... but underneath it all, no spiritual waste . If that were so, we would all be considered as such... This kinda relates. I saw it
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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          Human waste, so it may seem... but underneath it all, no "spiritual
          waste". If that were so, we would all be considered as such... This
          kinda relates. I saw it in another group, it's from the DailyGuru.

          Friday 31, October 2008


          Do not despair. No matter how dreadful or desperate
          your circumstances, Awareness remains your direct
          access to the Source of all Insight and Revelation.

          Only physical forms appear to exist as separate entities,
          and even this, ultimately, is an illusion. Behind all
          appearances lies the canvas of Truth and the unbroken
          Background of Reality.

          You are inseparable from this Wholeness, and as a human
          being, you can (as others before you have done) draw
          strength and comfort from this simple Recognition.


          Amanda
          ---- Original Message ----
          From: p_harper57@...
          To: nde@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie
          Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT)

          >I just think that ATI needs to add some more chlorene to the world's
          >gene pool.  My opinion.  No one else has to agree or disagree.  There
          >is human waste walking the earth.  Hope none in this group has to
          >meet up with any of them. 
          >Love,
          >Paul 
        • Linda ^i^ Stewart
          Paul Harper To: nde@yahoogroups.com November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message Paul: I hit send too quickly on the first
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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            Paul Harper To: nde@yahoogroups.com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message
            Paul:  I hit send too quickly on the first answer.  Let me try this again
             
            PAUL:  She has said in the past that to live in the now, one must must ignore the past and future,
             
            LINDA:  I think if you'll go back, what I have actually said is to not identify with the past or future, that the only time that you have is NOW.
             
            Paul:  Yes you did say that, but you also said more about not recognizing the negative while you are in the now. 
             
            Dear Paul,
            Yes, more or less.  If you can recognize that anyone who is coming from a negative standpoint is not doing it just for the ske of being negative, but out of pain or fear, one is a lot more likely to enter into the exchange with compassion and wisdom rather than knee-jerk counter-negativity 
             
            PAUL:  and when negativity is recognized in the now, basically ignore or shun them.  I may be paraphrasing the words, but that is what I take from her words.
             
            LINDA:  I can't recall ever saying to ignore or shun someone.  I believe what I have suggested is to keep one's peace within themselves and the outer world will not affect them.
             
            Paul:  You are playing semantics now Linda.  You may have never said those words but from what you said, and the writing tone, that is the meaning I took from them.  Get rid of all thoughts and emotions, do not linger in the past or the future and and do not allow the negative in your life.  That is how I 'read it'.
             
            LINDA;  No, Paul, I'm not playing with semantics.  I try to be very careful to say what I mean.  Whatever "tone" you heard in the writing is what was in your thoughts.  It was not, in this case, what I meant when I sent it. .
             
            PAUL:  However, when I recognize negativity, I have compounded the problem by merely recognizing the negativity.  Thus making me also a negative person.
             
            LINDA:  Are you still paraphrasing or do you recognize that if you see negativity in another, you can only see it if you have negativity in yourself?  You don't even know Ellie's boss and you are pissed off at her.  There is a place within in which you can remain neutral.  If a person steps over boundaries that you find unreasonable, then you draw boundaries.  For instance, I would not let an inebriated person shout obsenities at my grandson because he thoughts kids were a waste of space.  It's not that I would try to correct the other person, I would remove my grandson from that environment.
             
            Paul: I always have to paraphrase to let you know how I understood your words.  Ellie described her boss and all I heard from Ellie was that her boss is an immature and negative stinker who should be told that her behavior wasn't acceptable.  Place some guidelines and move on.  Ellie should not put up with such a obviously negative person all day.
             
            LINDA;  Ellie is not going to be able to change her boss.  The ONLY person whose thoughts (and resultant actions) are our own.
             
            PAUL:  When Linda recognizes negatively, why isn't she or others who recognize others as being negative while living in the now not also make them equally negative as I.  We both recognized negativity, but only one of us became equally negative, while the anointed ones are considered spiritually elevated?
             
            LINDA:  The difference (and I don't consider myself annointed) is that one can look at another who is living in negativity *without making judgments* about them.  They simply recognize the other is in pain/fear and does not judge them for it.  They do not disturb their own internal peace.
             
            Paul:  No I'm sure they are very comfortable in their 'skin'.  But Ellie was not comfortable being around such negative behavior and approached this group about it.  But you told me that If I find the boss as a negative person, that also makes me negative.  And I guess Ellie to is now tainted with negativism too.  But not the boss, is that what you are saying?
             
            LINDA;   Close.  Seeing a person as negative means that you recognize negativit within yourself. (You cannot name something with which you are unfamiliar).  When one sees negativity is an opportunity to change your mind about that person. .
             
            PAUL:  Wouldn't you consider ignoring or shunning a 'child of God' from your life as being as guilty of negativity as the person sharing guidance and laying down boundaries?  Maybe they should be told how they are perceived and give themselves a chance to redeem themselves by changing the way they treat others,  Ignoring them seems selfish and not at all spiritual.
             
            LINDA:  When I have been in a negative state myself, I have responded better to people who wrap me in love rather than people who exascerbate my own feelings of negativity by telling me what a poot I am.
             
            Paul:  Well maybe you were a spoiled brat who needed some straight talk
             
            LINDA;  I'm certain there have been times in my life when I was a spoiled brat.  Not often as a child, however, because the consequences of *any* misbehavior were so severe that I was actually a shy, scared child that tended to be introverted and hide in shadows so as not to be seen.  My thought was that if I couldn't be seen, surely I could not be punished for something I didn't understand I was doing..  I got "straight talk" and a beating.  All it did was intimidate, engender fear and a stunted view of the world.  As a teenager, it caused a quiet resolve and determined, subtle rebellion that drove me thousands of miles away from my environment.
             
            PAUL:  So you are saying that the poor boss has no part in this
             
            LINDA;  Ellie's boss is not here and asking questions.  Are you asking me if I believe Ellie's account of her boss?  Yes, I do .
             
            PAUL:  and Ellie should give her a hug each morning and each night after work? 
             
            LINDA; Are you being sarcastic or obtuse?  I think you probably know without asking that this would be a ridiculous attempt at solution.
             .
            PAUL:   If she doesn't the boss has a right to treat her with such disrespect and bad behavior? 
             
            LINDA;  Did you not see that I said it is appropriate to draw boundaries?
            .
            PAUL:  Well Linda, maybe someone needed to tell you you were causing a disruption and a feeling of negativity around others and that you were acting like a poot.  (What is a poot?)
             
            LINDA;  Perhaps.  That certainly would have added to the feelings of insecurity.  Do you think aggressiveness helps a person who is already feeling fear?
                A "poot" is a polite word for s**t.  It's a southern thing .
             
            PAUL:  There are times when it seems there is a double standard here.  If two people both recognize negativity, why are they not both guilty of creating negativity? 
             
            LINDA:  You see them as a waste of skin; I see them as a beloved child of God who is in a temporary state of negativity.  Who has perpetuated the negativity?
             
            Paul:  Who perpetuated the Negativity?  According to your previous post on this subject, you did.  You recognized the poor person and judged her to be temporally in a state of negativity. 
             
            LINDA:  I assessed her as being negative.  I did not judge her.  For me, judging means to think of the person as "bad".  I can say a person is a killer if they have killed someone.  If I say someone who is a killer is a "piece of s**t", then I have judged them.
             
            PAUL: You recognized/judged the person, so I guess according to your rules, YOU my dear friend perpetuated the negativity. 
             
            LINDA;  I have no rules.  I have opinions.  If you want to see me as negative, that is your privilege.  Do you like seeing me as negative?
             
            PAUL:  A waste of skin is like a poot - they are just expressions.  When the boss was acting like a waste of skin, someone needed to tell her how her actions were effecting others. 
             
            LINDA;  That is one option and one that seldom leads to peaceful resolutions.
             .
            PAUL:  When you were acting like a poot, some one should have known to tell you how your actions were effecting them.  It sounds like those in this group are afraid of tough love. 
             
            LINDA;  I'm not afraid of tough love and, in drastic situations (a child doing drugs, etc.) I would use tough love.  But, I have a feeling our interpretations of "tough love" would be a little different.
             .
            PAUL:   It is just the giving of direct information to those who need it.  You may say that is judging others.  Well, Duh - Linda, how else are you going to help them. smothering them with sweet love just draws out the process and gives them a false feeling that their treatment to others is just fine. 
             
            LINDA;  I think this may be the meat of the nut for you.  You are afraid people will "get away with it" when they mistreat you.  I could be wrong.
            .
            PAUL:  Until someday an employee snaps and gives her a witch pancake in the face and tells her to be quiet and take out the trash if wants to be helpful.
             
            LINDA;  Spiritual masters have never recommended physical violence as a way to express Unconditional Love.  That is our objective here, Paul - to find and express Unconditional Love.  That is not the same thing as letting people walk over you but it is not based in egoic, emotional reaction from a place of fear and rage..
             
            PAUL:  And why is the one who recognized negativity and then shuns them without helping them learn how they are perceived, the proper one to follow?
             
            LINDA:  You keep using the word "shunned".  Have you felt shunned at times when you have felt negative?
             
            Paul:  So you didn't have and answer to this one at all?  Have I ever felt shunned?  Heck no, I wouldn't allow it.  Have you ever been shunned?  
             
            LINDA;  I thought I had covered it when I pointed out that you were wrong in stating that I recommended shunning.  And my answer is that the best "help" you can give one who is not at peace, is to find peace within yourself before interacting with them.
            With love,
            Linda
            P.S.  Paul, all these are my opinion and what works for me.  Remember, it's just a discussion.  I have no desire to change you - what you are doing may work just fine for you and your life is smooth and peaceful.  I am just happy to be able to discuss these things with you. .
          • Linda ^i^ Stewart
            Thanks, Amanda, That was a good quote. If we saw the other as I , we would act a lot differently. With love, Linda ... From: Amandala To:
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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              Thanks, Amanda,
              That was a good quote.  If we saw the "other" as "I", we would act a lot differently.
              With love,
              Linda
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Amandala
              Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie

              Human waste, so it may seem... but underneath it all, no "spiritual
              waste". If that were so, we would all be considered as such... This
              kinda relates. I saw it in another group, it's from the DailyGuru.

              Friday 31, October 2008

              Do not despair. No matter how dreadful or desperate
              your circumstances, Awareness remains your direct
              access to the Source of all Insight and Revelation.

              Only physical forms appear to exist as separate entities,
              and even this, ultimately, is an illusion. Behind all
              appearances lies the canvas of Truth and the unbroken
              Background of Reality.

              You are inseparable from this Wholeness, and as a human
              being, you can (as others before you have done) draw
              strength and comfort from this simple Recognition.

              Amanda
              ---- Original Message ----
              From: p_harper57@yahoo. com
              To: nde@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie
              Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT)

              >I just think that ATI needs to add some more chlorene to the world's
              >gene pool.  My opinion.  No one else has to agree or disagree.  There
              >is human waste walking the earth.  Hope none in this group has to
              >meet up with any of them. 
              >Love,
              >Paul 

            • Paul Harper
              Dear Linda, I think we are making progress in communicating today.  You haven t tossed me out of the group yet and I have reacted as kindly and as coherently
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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                Dear Linda,
                I think we are making progress in communicating today.  You haven't tossed me out of the group yet and I have reacted as kindly and as coherently as I am able.

                --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Linda ^i^ Stewart <el-stewart@.....net> wrote:
                From: Linda ^i^ Stewart <el-stewart@...>
                Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message
                To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 3:14 PM

                Paul Harper To: nde@yahoogroups.com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message
                Paul:  I hit send too quickly on the first answer.  Let me try this again
                 
                PAUL:  She has said in the past that to live in the now, one must must ignore the past and future,
                 
                LINDA:  I think if you'll go back, what I have actually said is to not identify with the past or future, that the only time that you have is NOW.
                 
                Paul:  Yes you did say that, but you also said more about not recognizing the negative while you are in the now. 
                 
                Dear Paul,
                Yes, more or less.  If you can recognize that anyone who is coming from a negative standpoint is not doing it just for the sake of being negative, but out of pain or fear, one is a lot more likely to enter into the exchange with compassion and wisdom rather than knee-jerk counter-negativity
                 
                Paul: I don't think there has been any knee jerking done around hear.  I read Ellie's post and maybe I did remember pain from some jerk boss from some time ago.  But I talked straight to the boss and explained what I didn't appreciate about his unpleasant behavior.  That boss just said, "That sounds fair enough, " and we understood each other and went on our way doing our job without any hurt feelings on either part.  He even promoted me after a time and turned out to be the best boss I ever had.  If I hadn't stuck up for myself I would have probably been fired later for my temper getting out of hand.  If I tried to love or hug him, he would have been highly upset.
                 
                PAUL:  and when negativity is recognized in the now, basically ignore or shun them.  I may be paraphrasing the words, but that is what I take from her words.
                 
                LINDA:  I can't recall ever saying to ignore or shun someone.  I believe what I have suggested is to keep one's peace within themselves and the outer world will not affect them.
                 
                Paul:  You are playing semantics now Linda.  You may have never said those words but from what you said, and the writing tone, that is the meaning I took from them.  Get rid of all thoughts and emotions, do not linger in the past or the future and and do not allow the negative in your life.  That is how I 'read it'.
                 
                LINDA;  No, Paul, I'm not playing with semantics.  I try to be very careful to say what I mean.  Whatever "tone" you heard in the writing is what was in your thoughts.  It was not, in this case, what I meant when I sent it. 
                 
                Paul:  OK, but please realize that the choice of words and how you use them sets the tone of your writing.  It does for all of us.
                 
                PAUL:  However, when I recognize negativity, I have compounded the problem by merely recognizing the negativity.  Thus making me also a negative person.
                 
                LINDA:  Are you still paraphrasing or do you recognize that if you see negativity in another, you can only see it if you have negativity in yourself?  You don't even know Ellie's boss and you are pissed off at her.  There is a place within in which you can remain neutral.  If a person steps over boundaries that you find unreasonable, then you draw boundaries.  For instance, I would not let an inebriated person shout obscenities at my grandson because he thoughts kids were a waste of space.  It's not that I would try to correct the other person, I would remove my grandson from that environment.
                 
                Paul: I always have to paraphrase to let you know how I understood your words.  Ellie described her boss and all I heard from Ellie was that her boss is an immature and negative stinker who should be told that her behavior wasn't acceptable.  Place some guidelines and move on.  Ellie should not put up with such a obviously negative person all day.
                 
                LINDA;  Ellie is not going to be able to change her boss.  The ONLY person whose thoughts (and resultant actions) are our own.
                 
                Paul:  Not always.  I've cleared the air with many men and women by just calmly talking to them and telling them what is bothering me and how they can help the situation.  It doesn't always work, but more time than not it makes the relationships better even if by a few degrees.  So I think it is always worth a try.  If it doesn't work, then shun the hell out of each other.
                 
                PAUL:  When Linda recognizes negatively, why isn't she or others who recognize others as being negative while living in the now not also make them equally negative as I.  We both recognized negativity, but only one of us became equally negative, while the anointed ones are considered spiritually elevated?
                 
                LINDA:  The difference (and I don't consider myself anointed) is that one can look at another who is living in negativity *without making judgments* about them.  They simply recognize the other is in pain/fear and does not judge them for it.  They do not disturb their own internal peace.
                 
                Paul:  No I'm sure they are very comfortable in their 'skin'.  But Ellie was not comfortable being around such negative behavior and approached this group about it.  But you told me that If I find the boss as a negative person, that also makes me negative.  And I guess Ellie to is now tainted with negativism too.  But not the boss, is that what you are saying?
                 
                LINDA;   Close.  Seeing a person as negative means that you recognize negativity within yourself. (You cannot name something with which you are unfamiliar).  When one sees negativity is an opportunity to change your mind about that person. 
                 
                Paul:  OK, but you can have a grown up conversation with them too.  Loving them from afar is not nearly as much fun as staring them straight in the eye and telling them what is bothering you.  Then the hell with them.  I do change myself then.  But it is not love for the other person, it is just a growing indifference. 
                 
                PAUL:  Wouldn't you consider ignoring or shunning a 'child of God' from your life as being as guilty of negativity as the person sharing guidance and laying down boundaries?  Maybe they should be told how they are perceived and give themselves a chance to redeem themselves by changing the way they treat others,  Ignoring them seems selfish and not at all spiritual.
                 
                LINDA:  When I have been in a negative state myself, I have responded better to people who wrap me in love rather than people who exacerbate my own feelings of negativity by telling me what a poot I am.
                 
                Paul:  Well maybe you were a spoiled brat who needed some straight talk
                 
                LINDA;  I'm certain there have been times in my life when I was a spoiled brat.  Not often as a child, however, because the consequences of *any* misbehavior were so severe that I was actually a shy, scared child that tended to be introverted and hide in shadows so as not to be seen.  My thought was that if I couldn't be seen, surely I could not be punished for something I didn't understand I was doing..  I got "straight talk" and a beating.  All it did was intimidate, engender fear and a stunted view of the world.  As a teenager, it caused a quiet resolve and determined, subtle rebellion that drove me thousands of miles away from my environment.
                 
                Paul:  I grew up with the straight talk but it was a one way conversation.  Dad to me.  Sorry you were beaten.  I just had to watch out for Dad in the field if he got angry with us boys out working.  He wore those old lace up brogan boots with the hooks for the boot string for the last 2 or 3 lace turns.  Dad did allow a last minute turn of the butt so his big brogan boot would barely brush my butt and then it was up to us to holler and scream as if it was terrible pain and dad was happy then and all was right in the world again. 
                 
                PAUL:  So you are saying that the poor boss has no part in this
                 
                LINDA;  Ellie's boss is not here and asking questions.  Are you asking me if I believe Ellie's account of her boss?  Yes, I do .
                 
                PAUL:  and Ellie should give her a hug each morning and each night after work? 
                 
                LINDA; Are you being sarcastic or obtuse?  I think you probably know without asking that this would be a ridiculous attempt at solution.
                 
                Paul:  I had to look up obtuse. 
                Etymology:
                Middle English, from Latin obtusus blunt, dull, from past participle of obtundere to beat against, blunt, from ob- against + tundere to beat — more at ob-, contusion
                Date:
                15th century
                a: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : insensitive , stupid b: difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression.
                 
                That's a great word Linda.  You can use it on most people and they won't even know you are calling them  insensitive and stupid.  (Grin)
                 
                PAUL:   If she doesn't the boss has a right to treat her with such disrespect and bad behavior? 
                 
                LINDA;  Did you not see that I said it is appropriate to draw boundaries?
                 
                Paul: Yes I do remember reading that.
                 
                PAUL:  Well Linda, maybe someone needed to tell you you were causing a disruption and a feeling of negativity around others and that you were acting like a poot.  (What is a poot?)
                 
                LINDA;  Perhaps.  That certainly would have added to the feelings of insecurity.  Do you think aggressiveness helps a person who is already feeling fear?
                    A "poot" is a polite word for s**t.  It's a southern thing.
                 
                Paul: No, aggressiveness doesn't help those in fear or pain.  You have to determine what they need before talking to them.  I always start out in the most calm and friendly voice that I have.  Then see how they react.  If we can't have a calm conversation, I walk away.  But if they warm to me, I mentally move closer and ask some innocent questions.  If they allow that, then I am in home free and can talk to them about some things that have been bothering me and If I get that far, a calm and pleasant conversation usually ensues and we can talk calmly about how the other persons action may be misconstrued by others.  It's worked for me many times.  
                 
                PAUL:  There are times when it seems there is a double standard here.  If two people both recognize negativity, why are they not both guilty of creating negativity? 
                 
                LINDA:  You see them as a waste of skin; I see them as a beloved child of God who is in a temporary state of negativity.  Who has perpetuated the negativity?
                 
                Paul:  Who perpetuated the Negativity?  According to your previous post on this subject, you did.  You recognized the poor person and judged her to be temporally in a state of negativity. 
                 
                LINDA:  I assessed her as being negative.  I did not judge her.  For me, judging means to think of the person as "bad".  I can say a person is a killer if they have killed someone.  If I say someone who is a killer is a "piece of s**t", then I have judged them.
                 
                Paul:  You southern girls get a bit feisty with your words don't you?  That's ok.  I will watch myself.  I'm getting tired of beating this dead horse, but at least I understand you better and hopefully you won't find my future posts as offensive.  For the record if I assess someone as negative or if I judge them to be negative, they both mean the same thing to me.  So maybe I am Obtuse.
                 
                PAUL: You recognized/judged the person, so I guess according to your rules, YOU my dear friend perpetuated the negativity. 
                 
                LINDA;  I have no rules.  I have opinions.  If you want to see me as negative, that is your privilege.  Do you like seeing me as negative?
                 
                Paul:  No Linda, not at all.  I never thought of you as negative until you jumped astraddle my back and started whipping me with the negative stick.  I had just never hear that you shouldn't speak to negative people, be they perceived, identified, rendered to me by a glance or of hearing it second hand - Negative is negative.  I'm not negative, trust me. 
                 
                PAUL:  A waste of skin is like a poot - they are just expressions.  When the boss was acting like a waste of skin, someone needed to tell her how her actions were effecting others. 
                 
                LINDA;  That is one option and one that seldom leads to peaceful resolutions.
                 
                PAUL:  When you were acting like a poot, some one should have known to tell you how your actions were effecting them.  It sounds like those in this group are afraid of tough love. 
                 
                LINDA;  I'm not afraid of tough love and, in drastic situations (a child doing drugs, etc.) I would use tough love.  But, I have a feeling our interpretations of "tough love" would be a little different.
                 
                Paul:  Why would our definitions be different.  You got more beatings and I got to dodge work boots full of my dad's foot.  My idea of tough love is not much different than yours.  My daughter went through a rough patch right after she graduated High School.  She started hanging out with other bulimics and they would purge together.  It still makes me weak of heart to think of it.  Any way the Mental Health shrink suggested she go to a program in the Phoenix St. Jude hospital.  It was a 6 week lockup with constant supervision and they would rebuild each girl from the inside out.
                 
                It was hard to sign my name to locking her up for rehad for 6 weeks, but the wife and I thought it had to be the best for her.  We were helpless around her.  We couldn't visit for the first two weeks. then the remaining weeks we got to see her every Friday night,  That's the kind of tough love I am talking about.  No beatings involved ever.  My kids got a swat on the butt every once in a while, but no beatings or ugly talk.  We took direct action and got her some help.  It worked.  She saw a therapist for a few more months and then she started returning to normal.  It was a bad time.
                 
                PAUL:   It is just the giving of direct information to those who need it.  You may say that is judging others.  Well, Duh - Linda, how else are you going to help them. smothering them with sweet love just draws out the process and gives them a false feeling that their treatment to others is just fine. 
                 
                LINDA;  I think this may be the meat of the nut for you.  You are afraid people will "get away with it" when they mistreat you.  I could be wrong.
                 
                Paul:  Good guess, but no cigar.  I don't like seeing others being mistreated.  Either mentally or physically.  I don't worry about myself.  No one will mistreat me.
                 
                PAUL:  Until someday an employee snaps and gives her a witch pancake in the face and tells her to be quiet and take out the trash if wants to be helpful.
                 
                LINDA;  Spiritual masters have never recommended physical violence as a way to express Unconditional Love.  That is our objective here, Paul - to find and express Unconditional Love.  That is not the same thing as letting people walk over you but it is not based in egoic, emotional reaction from a place of fear and rage..
                 
                Paul:  Sounds good to me.  Unconditional love is my goal.  But having unconditional love for some who only mean harm to others is very hard to walk by and not take some corrective action.  And I don't mean Kung Fu fighting either.  Just jaw boning with a person and letting them know there is a better way to handle things.  I only have fear and rage in my dreams.  But they are getting better.  Sometimes I win the fight or at least come out even.  I know, a very weird life.
                 
                PAUL:  And why is the one who recognized negativity and then shuns them without helping them learn how they are perceived, the proper one to follow?
                 
                LINDA:  You keep using the word "shunned".  Have you felt shunned at times when you have felt negative?
                 
                Paul:  So you didn't have and answer to this one at all?  Have I ever felt shunned?  Heck no, I wouldn't allow it.  Have you ever been shunned?  
                 
                LINDA;  I thought I had covered it when I pointed out that you were wrong in stating that I recommended shunning.  And my answer is that the best "help" you can give one who is not at peace, is to find peace within yourself before interacting with them.
                 
                Paul: I agree with that.
                 
                With love,
                Linda
                 
                P.S.  Paul, all these are my opinion and what works for me.  Remember, it's just a discussion.  I have no desire to change you - what you are doing may work just fine for you and your life is smooth and peaceful.  I am just happy to be able to discuss these things with you.
                 
                Paul:  Me too Linda.  I appreciate your time. 
                 
                Love,
                Paul

              • Amandala
                That is a good exercise I think... to look at others as ourselves. I agree we would act/think a lot differently. Amanda ... From: el-stewart@worldnet.att.net
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  That is a good exercise I think... to look at others as ourselves. I
                  agree we would act/think a lot differently.

                  Amanda
                  ---- Original Message ----
                  From: el-stewart@...
                  To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie
                  Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:15:21 -0400

                  >Thanks, Amanda,
                  >That was a good quote. If we saw the "other" as "I", we would act a
                  >lot differently.
                  >With love,
                  >Linda
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Amandala
                  > To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:47 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie
                  >
                  >
                  > Human waste, so it may seem... but underneath it all, no "spiritual
                  > waste". If that were so, we would all be considered as such... This
                  > kinda relates. I saw it in another group, it's from the DailyGuru.
                  >
                  > Friday 31, October 2008
                  >
                  > Do not despair. No matter how dreadful or desperate
                  > your circumstances, Awareness remains your direct
                  > access to the Source of all Insight and Revelation.
                  >
                  > Only physical forms appear to exist as separate entities,
                  > and even this, ultimately, is an illusion. Behind all
                  > appearances lies the canvas of Truth and the unbroken
                  > Background of Reality.
                  >
                  > You are inseparable from this Wholeness, and as a human
                  > being, you can (as others before you have done) draw
                  > strength and comfort from this simple Recognition.
                  >
                  > Amanda
                  > ---- Original Message ----
                  > From: p_harper57@...
                  > To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie
                  > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
                  >
                  > >I just think that ATI needs to add some more chlorene to the
                  >world's
                  > >gene pool. My opinion. No one else has to agree or disagree.
                  >There
                  > >is human waste walking the earth. Hope none in this group has to
                  > >meet up with any of them.
                  > >Love,
                  > >Paul
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Linda ^i^ Stewart
                  Dear Paul, The first definition of obtuse is 1 a: not pointed or acute : blunt b (1)of an angle : exceeding 90 degrees but less than 180 degrees (2): having an
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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                    Dear Paul,
                    The first definition of obtuse is
                    1 a: not pointed or acute : blunt b (1)of an angle : exceeding 90 degrees but less than 180 degrees (2): having an obtuse angle <an obtuse triangle>
                    I meant it as "at a sharp angle" - or off track.
                    With love,
                    Linda
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie - Linda

                    Dear Linda,
                    I think we are making progress in communicating today.  You haven't tossed me out of the group yet and I have reacted as kindly and as coherently as I am able.

                    --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Linda ^i^ Stewart <el-stewart@worldnet .att..net> wrote:
                    From: Linda ^i^ Stewart <el-stewart@worldnet .att.net>
                    Subject: Re: [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message
                    To: nde@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 3:14 PM

                    Paul Harper To: nde@yahoogroups. com  November 01, 2008 [nde] Linda and Ellie - Hit send by mistake on first message
                    Paul:  I hit send too quickly on the first answer.  Let me try this again
                     
                    PAUL:  She has said in the past that to live in the now, one must must ignore the past and future,
                     
                    LINDA:  I think if you'll go back, what I have actually said is to not identify with the past or future, that the only time that you have is NOW.
                     
                    Paul:  Yes you did say that, but you also said more about not recognizing the negative while you are in the now. 
                     
                    Dear Paul,
                    Yes, more or less.  If you can recognize that anyone who is coming from a negative standpoint is not doing it just for the sake of being negative, but out of pain or fear, one is a lot more likely to enter into the exchange with compassion and wisdom rather than knee-jerk counter-negativity
                     
                    Paul: I don't think there has been any knee jerking done around hear.  I read Ellie's post and maybe I did remember pain from some jerk boss from some time ago.  But I talked straight to the boss and explained what I didn't appreciate about his unpleasant behavior.  That boss just said, "That sounds fair enough, " and we understood each other and went on our way doing our job without any hurt feelings on either part.  He even promoted me after a time and turned out to be the best boss I ever had.  If I hadn't stuck up for myself I would have probably been fired later for my temper getting out of hand.  If I tried to love or hug him, he would have been highly upset.
                     
                    PAUL:  and when negativity is recognized in the now, basically ignore or shun them.  I may be paraphrasing the words, but that is what I take from her words.
                     
                    LINDA:  I can't recall ever saying to ignore or shun someone.  I believe what I have suggested is to keep one's peace within themselves and the outer world will not affect them.
                     
                    Paul:  You are playing semantics now Linda.  You may have never said those words but from what you said, and the writing tone, that is the meaning I took from them.  Get rid of all thoughts and emotions, do not linger in the past or the future and and do not allow the negative in your life.  That is how I 'read it'.
                     
                    LINDA;  No, Paul, I'm not playing with semantics.  I try to be very careful to say what I mean.  Whatever "tone" you heard in the writing is what was in your thoughts.  It was not, in this case, what I meant when I sent it. 
                     
                    Paul:  OK, but please realize that the choice of words and how you use them sets the tone of your writing.  It does for all of us.
                     
                    PAUL:  However, when I recognize negativity, I have compounded the problem by merely recognizing the negativity.  Thus making me also a negative person.
                     
                    LINDA:  Are you still paraphrasing or do you recognize that if you see negativity in another, you can only see it if you have negativity in yourself?  You don't even know Ellie's boss and you are pissed off at her.  There is a place within in which you can remain neutral.  If a person steps over boundaries that you find unreasonable, then you draw boundaries.  For instance, I would not let an inebriated person shout obscenities at my grandson because he thoughts kids were a waste of space.  It's not that I would try to correct the other person, I would remove my grandson from that environment.
                     
                    Paul: I always have to paraphrase to let you know how I understood your words.  Ellie described her boss and all I heard from Ellie was that her boss is an immature and negative stinker who should be told that her behavior wasn't acceptable.  Place some guidelines and move on.  Ellie should not put up with such a obviously negative person all day.
                     
                    LINDA;  Ellie is not going to be able to change her boss.  The ONLY person whose thoughts (and resultant actions) are our own.
                     
                    Paul:  Not always.  I've cleared the air with many men and women by just calmly talking to them and telling them what is bothering me and how they can help the situation.  It doesn't always work, but more time than not it makes the relationships better even if by a few degrees.  So I think it is always worth a try.  If it doesn't work, then shun the hell out of each other.
                     
                    PAUL:  When Linda recognizes negatively, why isn't she or others who recognize others as being negative while living in the now not also make them equally negative as I.  We both recognized negativity, but only one of us became equally negative, while the anointed ones are considered spiritually elevated?
                     
                    LINDA:  The difference (and I don't consider myself anointed) is that one can look at another who is living in negativity *without making judgments* about them.  They simply recognize the other is in pain/fear and does not judge them for it.  They do not disturb their own internal peace.
                     
                    Paul:  No I'm sure they are very comfortable in their 'skin'.  But Ellie was not comfortable being around such negative behavior and approached this group about it.  But you told me that If I find the boss as a negative person, that also makes me negative.  And I guess Ellie to is now tainted with negativism too.  But not the boss, is that what you are saying?
                     
                    LINDA;   Close.  Seeing a person as negative means that you recognize negativity within yourself. (You cannot name something with which you are unfamiliar).  When one sees negativity is an opportunity to change your mind about that person. 
                     
                    Paul:  OK, but you can have a grown up conversation with them too.  Loving them from afar is not nearly as much fun as staring them straight in the eye and telling them what is bothering you.  Then the hell with them.  I do change myself then.  But it is not love for the other person, it is just a growing indifference. 
                     
                    PAUL:  Wouldn't you consider ignoring or shunning a 'child of God' from your life as being as guilty of negativity as the person sharing guidance and laying down boundaries?  Maybe they should be told how they are perceived and give themselves a chance to redeem themselves by changing the way they treat others,  Ignoring them seems selfish and not at all spiritual.
                     
                    LINDA:  When I have been in a negative state myself, I have responded better to people who wrap me in love rather than people who exacerbate my own feelings of negativity by telling me what a poot I am.
                     
                    Paul:  Well maybe you were a spoiled brat who needed some straight talk
                     
                    LINDA;  I'm certain there have been times in my life when I was a spoiled brat.  Not often as a child, however, because the consequences of *any* misbehavior were so severe that I was actually a shy, scared child that tended to be introverted and hide in shadows so as not to be seen.  My thought was that if I couldn't be seen, surely I could not be punished for something I didn't understand I was doing..  I got "straight talk" and a beating.  All it did was intimidate, engender fear and a stunted view of the world.  As a teenager, it caused a quiet resolve and determined, subtle rebellion that drove me thousands of miles away from my environment.
                     
                    Paul:  I grew up with the straight talk but it was a one way conversation.  Dad to me.  Sorry you were beaten.  I just had to watch out for Dad in the field if he got angry with us boys out working.  He wore those old lace up brogan boots with the hooks for the boot string for the last 2 or 3 lace turns.  Dad did allow a last minute turn of the butt so his big brogan boot would barely brush my butt and then it was up to us to holler and scream as if it was terrible pain and dad was happy then and all was right in the world again. 
                     
                    PAUL:  So you are saying that the poor boss has no part in this
                     
                    LINDA;  Ellie's boss is not here and asking questions.  Are you asking me if I believe Ellie's account of her boss?  Yes, I do .
                     
                    PAUL:  and Ellie should give her a hug each morning and each night after work? 
                     
                    LINDA; Are you being sarcastic or obtuse?  I think you probably know without asking that this would be a ridiculous attempt at solution.
                     
                    Paul:  I had to look up obtuse. 
                    Etymology:
                    Middle English, from Latin obtusus blunt, dull, from past participle of obtundere to beat against, blunt, from ob- against + tundere to beat — more at ob-, contusion
                    Date:
                    15th century
                    a: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : insensitive , stupid b: difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression.
                     
                    That's a great word Linda.  You can use it on most people and they won't even know you are calling them  insensitive and stupid.  (Grin)
                     
                    PAUL:   If she doesn't the boss has a right to treat her with such disrespect and bad behavior? 
                     
                    LINDA;  Did you not see that I said it is appropriate to draw boundaries?
                     
                    Paul: Yes I do remember reading that.
                     
                    PAUL:  Well Linda, maybe someone needed to tell you you were causing a disruption and a feeling of negativity around others and that you were acting like a poot.  (What is a poot?)
                     
                    LINDA;  Perhaps.  That certainly would have added to the feelings of insecurity.  Do you think aggressiveness helps a person who is already feeling fear?
                        A "poot" is a polite word for s**t.  It's a southern thing.
                     
                    Paul: No, aggressiveness doesn't help those in fear or pain.  You have to determine what they need before talking to them.  I always start out in the most calm and friendly voice that I have.  Then see how they react.  If we can't have a calm conversation, I walk away.  But if they warm to me, I mentally move closer and ask some innocent questions.  If they allow that, then I am in home free and can talk to them about some things that have been bothering me and If I get that far, a calm and pleasant conversation usually ensues and we can talk calmly about how the other persons action may be misconstrued by others.  It's worked for me many times.  
                     
                    PAUL:  There are times when it seems there is a double standard here.  If two people both recognize negativity, why are they not both guilty of creating negativity? 
                     
                    LINDA:  You see them as a waste of skin; I see them as a beloved child of God who is in a temporary state of negativity.  Who has perpetuated the negativity?
                     
                    Paul:  Who perpetuated the Negativity?  According to your previous post on this subject, you did.  You recognized the poor person and judged her to be temporally in a state of negativity. 
                     
                    LINDA:  I assessed her as being negative.  I did not judge her.  For me, judging means to think of the person as "bad".  I can say a person is a killer if they have killed someone.  If I say someone who is a killer is a "piece of s**t", then I have judged them.
                     
                    Paul:  You southern girls get a bit feisty with your words don't you?  That's ok.  I will watch myself.  I'm getting tired of beating this dead horse, but at least I understand you better and hopefully you won't find my future posts as offensive.  For the record if I assess someone as negative or if I judge them to be negative, they both mean the same thing to me.  So maybe I am Obtuse.
                     
                    PAUL: You recognized/judged the person, so I guess according to your rules, YOU my dear friend perpetuated the negativity. 
                     
                    LINDA;  I have no rules.  I have opinions.  If you want to see me as negative, that is your privilege.  Do you like seeing me as negative?
                     
                    Paul:  No Linda, not at all.  I never thought of you as negative until you jumped astraddle my back and started whipping me with the negative stick.  I had just never hear that you shouldn't speak to negative people, be they perceived, identified, rendered to me by a glance or of hearing it second hand - Negative is negative.  I'm not negative, trust me. 
                     
                    PAUL:  A waste of skin is like a poot - they are just expressions.  When the boss was acting like a waste of skin, someone needed to tell her how her actions were effecting others. 
                     
                    LINDA;  That is one option and one that seldom leads to peaceful resolutions.
                     
                    PAUL:  When you were acting like a poot, some one should have known to tell you how your actions were effecting them.  It sounds like those in this group are afraid of tough love. 
                     
                    LINDA;  I'm not afraid of tough love and, in drastic situations (a child doing drugs, etc.) I would use tough love.  But, I have a feeling our interpretations of "tough love" would be a little different.
                     
                    Paul:  Why would our definitions be different.  You got more beatings and I got to dodge work boots full of my dad's foot.  My idea of tough love is not much different than yours.  My daughter went through a rough patch right after she graduated High School.  She started hanging out with other bulimics and they would purge together.  It still makes me weak of heart to think of it.  Any way the Mental Health shrink suggested she go to a program in the Phoenix St. Jude hospital.  It was a 6 week lockup with constant supervision and they would rebuild each girl from the inside out.
                     
                    It was hard to sign my name to locking her up for rehad for 6 weeks, but the wife and I thought it had to be the best for her.  We were helpless around her.  We couldn't visit for the first two weeks. then the remaining weeks we got to see her every Friday night,  That's the kind of tough love I am talking about.  No beatings involved ever.  My kids got a swat on the butt every once in a while, but no beatings or ugly talk.  We took direct action and got her some help.  It worked.  She saw a therapist for a few more months and then she started returning to normal.  It was a bad time.
                     
                    PAUL:   It is just the giving of direct information to those who need it.  You may say that is judging others.  Well, Duh - Linda, how else are you going to help them. smothering them with sweet love just draws out the process and gives them a false feeling that their treatment to others is just fine. 
                     
                    LINDA;  I think this may be the meat of the nut for you.  You are afraid people will "get away with it" when they mistreat you.  I could be wrong.
                     
                    Paul:  Good guess, but no cigar.  I don't like seeing others being mistreated.  Either mentally or physically.  I don't worry about myself.  No one will mistreat me.
                     
                    PAUL:  Until someday an employee snaps and gives her a witch pancake in the face and tells her to be quiet and take out the trash if wants to be helpful.
                     
                    LINDA;  Spiritual masters have never recommended physical violence as a way to express Unconditional Love.  That is our objective here, Paul - to find and express Unconditional Love.  That is not the same thing as letting people walk over you but it is not based in egoic, emotional reaction from a place of fear and rage..
                     
                    Paul:  Sounds good to me.  Unconditional love is my goal.  But having unconditional love for some who only mean harm to others is very hard to walk by and not take some corrective action.  And I don't mean Kung Fu fighting either.  Just jaw boning with a person and letting them know there is a better way to handle things.  I only have fear and rage in my dreams.  But they are getting better.  Sometimes I win the fight or at least come out even.  I know, a very weird life.
                     
                    PAUL:  And why is the one who recognized negativity and then shuns them without helping them learn how they are perceived, the proper one to follow?
                     
                    LINDA:  You keep using the word "shunned".  Have you felt shunned at times when you have felt negative?
                     
                    Paul:  So you didn't have and answer to this one at all?  Have I ever felt shunned?  Heck no, I wouldn't allow it.  Have you ever been shunned?  
                     
                    LINDA;  I thought I had covered it when I pointed out that you were wrong in stating that I recommended shunning.  And my answer is that the best "help" you can give one who is not at peace, is to find peace within yourself before interacting with them.
                     
                    Paul: I agree with that.
                     
                    With love,
                    Linda
                     
                    P.S.  Paul, all these are my opinion and what works for me.  Remember, it's just a discussion.  I have no desire to change you - what you are doing may work just fine for you and your life is smooth and peaceful.  I am just happy to be able to discuss these things with you.
                     
                    Paul:  Me too Linda.  I appreciate your time. 
                     
                    Love,
                    Paul

                  • kiwanis@att.net
                    Amanda: I have picked up on the Eastern religions/belief systems seem to be right on with a lot of things... Maybe here in the West, other stuff clutters our
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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                      Amanda: I have picked up on the Eastern religions/belief systems seem to be"right on" with a lot of things... Maybe here in the West, other
                      stuff clutters our minds. Does that make sense?


                      Noni: When I tried to find the differences between Eastern and Western philosophy, (a few years ago) I was really surprised at what I found..
                      I thought you might like to look at the following website.. I feel it answers many questions about how the philosophies are different

                      http://www.1000ventures.com/business_guide/crosscuttings/cultures_east-west-phylosophy.html

                      <quote from page>
                      Broadly, speaking, Western society strives to find and prove "the truth", while Eastern society accepts the truth as given and is more interested in finding the balance.

                      Westerners put more stock in individual rights; Easterners in social responsibly.
                      <end quote>
                    • kiwanis@att.net
                      Just to add a little more to the discussion.. Everything is perception! In the business world it is often quoted that, -perception is more important than
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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                        Just to add a little more to the discussion..
                        Everything is perception!
                        In the business world it is often quoted that, "-perception is more important than truth-"
                        That is said because if I can convince you that you 'need' something (even when you really don't) I make a sale..

                        We can all look at the same thing and perceive it as being different. The most talked about example of this is several blindfolded people describing the elephant (but each only 'feels' a single part of the elephant).

                        We don't 'know' anyone except through perception and our perception begins through what 'we' first see as compared about ourselves.

                        <quotes>
                        “Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.”~ Anthony J. D'Angelo

                        “Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world.” ~ Hans Margolius

                        “If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is - infinite” ~ William Blake
                      • Amandala
                        Very cool, Noni! Thanks. Yes, that s exactly what it seems like:) Amanda ... From: kiwanis@att.net To: nde@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [nde] western eastern
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 1, 2008
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                          Very cool, Noni! Thanks. Yes, that's exactly what it seems like:)

                          Amanda
                          ---- Original Message ----
                          From: kiwanis@...
                          To: nde@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [nde] western eastern philosophy
                          Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:27:57 +0000

                          >Amanda: I have picked up on the Eastern religions/belief systems seem
                          >to be"right on" with a lot of things... Maybe here in the West, other
                          >stuff clutters our minds. Does that make sense?
                          >
                          >
                          >Noni: When I tried to find the differences between Eastern and
                          >Western philosophy, (a few years ago) I was really surprised at what
                          >I found..
                          >I thought you might like to look at the following website.. I feel it
                          >answers many questions about how the philosophies are different
                          >
                          >http://www.1000ventures.com/business_guide/crosscuttings/cultures_eas
                          >t-west-phylosophy.html
                          >
                          ><quote from page>
                          >Broadly, speaking, Western society strives to find and prove "the
                          >truth", while Eastern society accepts the truth as given and is more
                          >interested in finding the balance.
                          >
                          >Westerners put more stock in individual rights; Easterners in social
                          >responsibly.
                          ><end quote>
                          >
                        • Diane Goble
                          Noni, Thank you for that wonderful East-West link, I added it to my web site... which, BTW, is a resource center for seekers. I ve been listing links and books
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 2, 2008
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                            Noni,
                            Thank you for that wonderful East-West link, I added it to my web
                            site... which, BTW, is a resource center for seekers. I've been
                            listing links and books there for over 12 years so it's quite an
                            extensive collection. Anyone looking for information, please drop in
                            at http://www.beyondtheveil.net/ddlinks.html and bookmark it for when
                            you're looking for some particular topic about spirituality,
                            religion, philosophy, science-spirit, metaphysics and similar.
                            Peace & Joy!
                            Diane
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