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Re: Nitrous Oxide

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  • Brad Stockdale
    Greetings, I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never posted much before... I ve been thinking about something lately though, and
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2007
      Greetings,

      I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
      posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
      wanted to get others input on the subject...

      I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
      physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
      antagonists... In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
      'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
      compared to NDE's...

      Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
      receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
      sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
      larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
      Feeling of great knowledge/understanding (Even the simplest idea can feel
      like a major revelation)... Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
      sorts of odd things.

      I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
      what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
      that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
      and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

      I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
      However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
      Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
      experience.

      I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
      but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
      thoughts would be appreciated.

      Regards,
      Brad




      --
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    • Venugopal AK
      Dear Brad, I had an NDE, but i cannot produce any corroborative evidence of any happening i witnessed during the NDE. I had also worked in the field of science
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2007
        Dear Brad,
                          I had an NDE, but i cannot produce any corroborative evidence of any happening i witnessed during the NDE. I had also worked in the field of science for 39 years, and looking back i feel that the NDE was a real experience,  not a hallucination.
                           But there are many such accounts which cannot be explained by the theories of brain malfunction. You may Google Dr.George Rodonia and get details of this Neuro pathologist's NDE. He had a Ph.D in neuro pathology. He was an atheist. For three days he was dead. During his NDE his soul visited his home and coming to know that there is some serious problem of an infant in his neibhours home he visited that home. There a new born was in constant pain and crying. His soul was able to communicate with the infant and came to know that there was fracture in the infants arm. After his revival Dr.George Rodonia returned home and told abot his NDE to his people, who were skeptic. Then he told aboiut the infant. Under  his advise the kid was taken to a doctor and the diagnosis was confirmed. Dr.Rodonia being a neuro pathologist will be able to evaluate whether it was a hallucination or not. And how can one explain the incident with the infant other than the existance of a soul.  Dr.Rodonia became a firm believer in God. He undertook some Studies in religion, obtained a Ph.D in religious studies, migrated to US became an ordained Deacon in Methodist Church. He died one year back.
                  
                          This account is available in www.near-death.com. There is also an account by Carl.G.Jung in which he describes the earth as seen from a long distance. Being an outstanding psychologist, he will be able to evaluate whether his experience is a hallucination or not.
         

                        There are several more  corroborative NDEs which confirm a life after death. Also ADCs are affirmative of the survival of human consciousness after  physical death. Offcourse this testimony is difficult to be accepted by most people.
         
                          Dr.Sam Parnia, a qualified medical doctor,  had researched for ten years and affirms that physical death is not the end.
         
                                                                                  With regards
                                                                                              Venugopal
        Brad Stockdale <brad@...> wrote:
        Greetings,

        I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
        posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
        wanted to get others input on the subject...

        I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
        physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
        antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
        'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
        compared to NDE's...

        Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
        receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
        sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
        larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
        Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
        like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
        sorts of odd things.

        I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
        what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
        that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
        and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

        I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
        However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
        Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
        experience.

        I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
        but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
        thoughts would be appreciated.

        Regards,
        Brad

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        dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
        believed to be clean.



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      • Venugopal AK
        Dear Brad, I had an NDE, but i cannot produce any corroborative evidence of any happening i witnessed during the NDE. I had also worked in the field of science
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2007
          Dear Brad,
                            I had an NDE, but i cannot produce any corroborative evidence of any happening i witnessed during the NDE. I had also worked in the field of science for 39 years, and looking back i feel that the NDE was a real experience,  not a hallucination.
                             But there are many such accounts which cannot be explained by the theories of brain malfunction. You may Google Dr.George Rodonia and get details of this Neuro pathologist's NDE. He had a Ph.D in neuro pathology. He was an atheist. For three days he was dead. During his NDE his soul visited his home and coming to know that there is some serious problem of an infant in his neibhours home he visited that home. There a new born was in constant pain and crying. His soul was able to communicate with the infant and came to know that there was fracture in the infants arm. After his revival Dr.George Rodonia returned home and told abot his NDE to his people, who were skeptic. Then he told aboiut the infant. Under  his advise the kid was taken to a doctor and the diagnosis was confirmed. Dr.Rodonia being a neuro pathologist will be able to evaluate whether it was a hallucination or not. And how can one explain the incident with the infant other than the existance of a soul.  Dr.Rodonia became a firm believer in God. He undertook some Studies in religion, obtained a Ph.D in religious studies, migrated to US became an ordained Deacon in Methodist Church. He died one year back.
                    
                            This account is available in www.near-death.com. There is also an account by Carl.G.Jung in which he describes the earth as seen from a long distance. Being an outstanding psychologist, he will be able to evaluate whether his experience is a hallucination or not.
           

                          There are several more  corroborative NDEs which confirm a life after death. Also ADCs are affirmative of the survival of human consciousness after  physical death. Offcourse this testimony is difficult to be accepted by most people.
           
                            Dr.Sam Parnia, a qualified medical doctor,  had researched for ten years and affirms that physical death is not the end.
           
                                                                                    With regards
                                                                                                Venugopal
          Brad Stockdale <brad@...> wrote:
          Greetings,

          I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
          posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
          wanted to get others input on the subject...

          I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
          physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
          antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
          'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
          compared to NDE's...

          Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
          receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
          sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
          larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
          Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
          like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
          sorts of odd things.

          I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
          what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
          that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
          and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

          I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
          However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
          Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
          experience.

          I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
          but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
          thoughts would be appreciated.

          Regards,
          Brad

          --
          This message has been scanned for viruses and
          dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
          believed to be clean.



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        • judy
          Well Brad, I will comment on nitrous though I have never had an nde. I ve used it for years in any kind of dental procedure and I absolutely love it. If it
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2007
            Well Brad, I will comment on nitrous though I have never had an nde.
            I've used it for years in any kind of dental procedure and I absolutely
            love it. If it were available for casual use, I confess I would want to
            get it. My first experience with it was probably back in the late 60's
            and after that I always chose a dentist who had that available.

            I've never messed around with street drugs aside from smoking some pot
            primarily during college years and on rare occurrences since that
            time. I rarely drink so I am not much into what might be called mind
            altering states, but nitrous I would not be able to resist.

            My hunch is that it is not similar to the state of nde, but if it were,
            I would be delighted.

            Judy
          • judy
            Brad, let me add that I never had hallucinations with nitrous. I had an expanded sense of well being, felt I had insights I had not had (but these left when
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2007
              Brad, let me add that I never had hallucinations with nitrous. I had an
              expanded sense of well being, felt I had insights I had not had (but
              these left when the nitrous wore off) and enjoyable sense of detachment,
              yet also some pleasure as I re experience many past experiences and a
              kind of being out in space kind of feeling, definitely not anchored to
              the earth. Well, my goodness that does sound a bit like the ndes I've
              read about.

              Judy
            • Kiwanis
              Hi Brad, your question is a good one.. and I liked Venugopal s thoughts.. I guess I would like add someone else s thoughts that came to my mind when I read
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 1, 2007
                Hi Brad, your question is a good one.. and I liked Venugopal's thoughts..
                I guess I would like add someone else's thoughts that came to my mind when I read your question..
                Where is heaven (the afterlife) and how do you get there? IF NDE's and OBE's are an indication that there is life after death, then there is nothing saying that having an NDE or OBE is the ONLY indication that there is more than this physical universe.
                I would suggest reading the link below. It is Kevin Williams', the webmaster of near-death.com, and his gathering of information on spiritual realms.. I had a lot to think about when he said, "We are living in the afterlife right now because our physical universe is but one of many heavenly realms." 
                So maybe tinkering with the brain could reach into unknown areas of our space and time. Which, yes, this experimentation could be dangerous since we desire to maintain the best qualitity of life we can, while in the physical realm)
                http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research20.html

                Noni

                Brad Stockdale wrote:

                Greetings,

                I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
                posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
                wanted to get others input on the subject...

                I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
                physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
                antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
                'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
                compared to NDE's...

                Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
                receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
                sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
                larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
                Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
                like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
                sorts of odd things.

                I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
                what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
                that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
                and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

                I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
                However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
                Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
                experience.

                I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
                but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
                thoughts would be appreciated.

                Regards,
                Brad

                --
                This message has been scanned for viruses and
                dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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              • David Magnan
                Brad, The question you pose has been pondered by many researchers. I am not familiar with nitrous oxide, but the best examples are ketamine and LSD which can
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2, 2007
                  Brad,

                  The question you pose has been pondered by many researchers. I am not
                  familiar with nitrous oxide, but the best examples are ketamine and
                  LSD which can produce a number of NDE-like experiences. Ketamine
                  apparently affects the right temporal lobe, the hippocampus and
                  associated structures in the brain (the "God" spot).

                  The question is whether psychedelic drugs produce authentic spiritual
                  and mystical experiences. Some scientists feel that since such drugs
                  induce mystical experiences, then mysticism is simply an artifact of
                  the physical brain.

                  Others insist that psychedelic chemicals can trigger bona fide
                  mystical and psychic experiences that cannot be explained by brain
                  neurology even though they were induced by modifying brain neurology.
                  The foremost researcher in the effects of LSD and a pioneer in
                  transpersonal psychology is Dr. Stanislav Grof. He is in this camp.

                  Dr. Grof concluded that a biological explanation of these phenomena
                  including NDE-like states induced by psychoactive drugs is
                  insufficient.

                  The materialist reductionist position is that understanding the
                  modifications of brain neurological functioning that result in NDE-
                  like experiences completely explains the experiences. The underlying
                  assumption is that the experience only exists in the brain. The major
                  error is this assumption. One writer used a simple analogy of an
                  apple pie to illustrate this point. The brain regions and structures
                  which are the sites of the neural activity of the smell, sight,
                  memory and resultant emotions of eating the pie can all be mapped.
                  However, this mapping of activity does not disprove the existence of
                  the pie. It is just as simple to believe that viewing the mechanics
                  of the brain during an NDE or religious experience is like getting a
                  glimpse of the brain hardware used to experience aspects of existence
                  beyond the body while still in the body. Of course, this does not
                  prove it either. I believe that the great preponderance of evidence
                  points in this direction.

                  David


                  --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Brad Stockdale <brad@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have
                  never
                  > posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately
                  though, and
                  > wanted to get others input on the subject...
                  >
                  > I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists
                  believe the
                  > physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA
                  receptor
                  > antagonists... In particular I am interested in the similarities
                  between the
                  > 'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in
                  when
                  > compared to NDE's...
                  >
                  > Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and
                  NMDA
                  > receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging
                  of
                  > sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases
                  when used in
                  > larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several
                  minutes.
                  > Feeling of great knowledge/understanding (Even the simplest idea
                  can feel
                  > like a major revelation)... Feeling as if you are out of a physical
                  body. All
                  > sorts of odd things.
                  >
                  > I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely
                  close to
                  > what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it
                  shows
                  > that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly
                  as strong
                  > and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...
                  >
                  > I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse
                  its usage.
                  > However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous
                  (and PCP and
                  > Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-
                  death
                  > experience.
                  >
                  > I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically
                  oriented,
                  > but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in
                  life. Any
                  > thoughts would be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Brad
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > This message has been scanned for viruses and
                  > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
                  > believed to be clean.
                  >
                • Linda ^i^ Stewart
                  Dear Brad and Noni, The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2, 2007
                    Dear Brad and Noni,
                    The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing affirmative.  OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs.
                    With love,
                    Linda
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Kiwanis
                    Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:35 AM
                    Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                    Hi Brad, your question is a good one.. and I liked Venugopal's thoughts..
                    I guess I would like add someone else's thoughts that came to my mind when I read your question..
                    Where is heaven (the afterlife) and how do you get there? IF NDE's and OBE's are an indication that there is life after death, then there is nothing saying that having an NDE or OBE is the ONLY indication that there is more than this physical universe.
                    I would suggest reading the link below. It is Kevin Williams', the webmaster of near-death.com, and his gathering of information on spiritual realms.. I had a lot to think about when he said, "We are living in the afterlife right now because our physical universe is but one of many heavenly realms." 
                    So maybe tinkering with the brain could reach into unknown areas of our space and time. Which, yes, this experimentation could be dangerous since we desire to maintain the best qualitity of life we can, while in the physical realm)
                    http://www.near- death.com/ experiences/ research20. html

                    Noni

                    Brad Stockdale wrote:

                    Greetings,

                    I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
                    posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
                    wanted to get others input on the subject...

                    I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
                    physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
                    antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
                    'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
                    compared to NDE's...

                    Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
                    receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
                    sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
                    larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
                    Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
                    like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
                    sorts of odd things.

                    I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
                    what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
                    that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
                    and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

                    I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
                    However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
                    Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
                    experience.

                    I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
                    but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
                    thoughts would be appreciated.

                    Regards,
                    Brad

                    --
                    This message has been scanned for viruses and
                    dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
                    believed to be clean.

                  • David Magnan
                    I am interested in the question you posed, and I found a little more information on the ketamine/NDE subject. Dr. Carl Jansen wrote the most definitive paper
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 2, 2007
                      I am interested in the question you posed, and I found a little more
                      information on the ketamine/NDE subject. Dr. Carl Jansen wrote the
                      most definitive paper on the induction of NDE-like states by
                      ketamine, and in this he assumed that these experiences are no more
                      than the distorted functioning of the brain structures affected, the
                      distortion caused by a process where ketamine alters the function of
                      the NMDA receptors on neurons. He accepted the claims of a number of
                      researchers that these ketamine-induced "NDE-like" experiences are
                      actually NDEs, that they are identical to, not just like, true NDEs.

                      However, he has subsequently changed his mind on this. He had the
                      following to say: "I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations
                      of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the
                      past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved
                      more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof.
                      Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation
                      and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The
                      complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states'
                      and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term
                      at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained
                      within this particular article no longer accurately represents my
                      attitudes."

                      David



                      --- In nde@yahoogroups.com, Brad Stockdale <brad@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have
                      never
                      > posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately
                      though, and
                      > wanted to get others input on the subject...
                      >
                      > I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists
                      believe the
                      > physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA
                      receptor
                      > antagonists... In particular I am interested in the similarities
                      between the
                      > 'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in
                      when
                      > compared to NDE's...
                      >
                      > Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and
                      NMDA
                      > receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging
                      of
                      > sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases
                      when used in
                      > larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several
                      minutes.
                      > Feeling of great knowledge/understanding (Even the simplest idea
                      can feel
                      > like a major revelation)... Feeling as if you are out of a physical
                      body. All
                      > sorts of odd things.
                      >
                      > I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely
                      close to
                      > what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it
                      shows
                      > that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly
                      as strong
                      > and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...
                      >
                      > I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse
                      its usage.
                      > However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous
                      (and PCP and
                      > Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-
                      death
                      > experience.
                      >
                      > I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically
                      oriented,
                      > but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in
                      life. Any
                      > thoughts would be appreciated.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Brad
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > This message has been scanned for viruses and
                      > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
                      > believed to be clean.
                      >
                    • Kiwanis
                      I think I know what you are saying, Linda. Certainly, Ketamine and LSD studies often have conflicting results when it comes to life changes.. I have been in
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 2, 2007
                        I think I know what you are saying, Linda. Certainly, Ketamine and LSD studies often have conflicting results when it comes to life changes..

                         I have been in contact with a few NDEs, by going to a local Iands group. They also had dramatic NDE's and I feel I can tell, from my own observation, they have been dramatically changed.
                         
                         Do you still feel you are free of an egoic identity? or was this freedom just while you had the experience? Or is it a part of your straddling both worlds?

                        Most NDE and OBE studies say that the after effects of both (NDE and OBE) are simular. I feel sure the memory of your NDE would make your personality change more dramatic..Your memory of the event tells you it was 'huge' and I won't argue that.. It was hugely different from an 'OBE only' event. But, I feel, the after effects of an 'OBE only' event can be remarkable even if it is not 'huge'..
                        Russia has been doing Ketamine experiments to cure alcoholism. I read that there were some successes. I also heard of some downsides (like brain damage or ketamine addiction) that are not talked about much. It seems they are also doing a study of personality changes, of those participating, in the newer ketamine studies. One Russian study claims that there have been a noticable changes in spirituality in some of the subjects undergoing the treatment. Being a society of many athiests, this finding is worth noting.

                        Noni

                        Linda ^i^ Stewart wrote:

                        Dear Brad and Noni,
                        The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing affirmative.  OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs.
                        With love,
                        Linda
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Kiwanis
                        Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:35 AM
                        Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                        Hi Brad, your question is a good one.. and I liked Venugopal's thoughts..
                        I guess I would like add someone else's thoughts that came to my mind when I read your question..
                        Where is heaven (the afterlife) and how do you get there? IF NDE's and OBE's are an indication that there is life after death, then there is nothing saying that having an NDE or OBE is the ONLY indication that there is more than this physical universe.
                        I would suggest reading the link below. It is Kevin Williams', the webmaster of near-death.com, and his gathering of information on spiritual realms.. I had a lot to think about when he said, "We are living in the afterlife right now because our physical universe is but one of many heavenly realms." 
                        So maybe tinkering with the brain could reach into unknown areas of our space and time. Which, yes, this experimentation could be dangerous since we desire to maintain the best qualitity of life we can, while in the physical realm)
                        http://www.near- death.com/ experiences/ research20. html

                        Noni

                        Brad Stockdale wrote:

                        Greetings,

                        I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
                        posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
                        wanted to get others input on the subject...

                        I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
                        physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
                        antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
                        'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
                        compared to NDE's...

                        Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
                        receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
                        sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
                        larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
                        Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
                        like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
                        sorts of odd things.

                        I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
                        what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
                        that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
                        and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

                        I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
                        However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
                        Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
                        experience.

                        I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
                        but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
                        thoughts would be appreciated.

                        Regards,
                        Brad

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                      • valerie
                        From Valerie, My OBE showed me that my Horse was injured, he had a broken leg, I had been standing at the gate to the field with friends, and he actually was
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 2, 2007
                          From Valerie,
                           
                          My OBE showed me that my Horse was injured, he had a broken leg, I had been standing at the gate to the field with friends, and he actually was four or five paddocks away from where we were, it was a large property. I did not know there was a paddock where I found him. So what was that?
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 2:18 AM
                          Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                          Dear Brad and Noni,
                          The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing affirmative.  OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs.
                          With love,
                          Linda
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Kiwanis
                          Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:35 AM
                          Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                          Hi Brad, your question is a good one.. and I liked Venugopal's thoughts..
                          I guess I would like add someone else's thoughts that came to my mind when I read your question..
                          Where is heaven (the afterlife) and how do you get there? IF NDE's and OBE's are an indication that there is life after death, then there is nothing saying that having an NDE or OBE is the ONLY indication that there is more than this physical universe.
                          I would suggest reading the link below. It is Kevin Williams', the webmaster of near-death.com, and his gathering of information on spiritual realms.. I had a lot to think about when he said, "We are living in the afterlife right now because our physical universe is but one of many heavenly realms." 
                          So maybe tinkering with the brain could reach into unknown areas of our space and time. Which, yes, this experimentation could be dangerous since we desire to maintain the best qualitity of life we can, while in the physical realm)
                          http://www.near- death.com/ experiences/ research20. html

                          Noni

                          Brad Stockdale wrote:

                          Greetings,

                          I have been lurking on this group for quite some time, but have never
                          posted much before... I've been thinking about something lately though, and
                          wanted to get others input on the subject...

                          I've read articles that have indicated that some scientists believe the
                          physiological causes of NDE's can be attributed in part to NMDA receptor
                          antagonists. .. In particular I am interested in the similarities between the
                          'zone' (for lack of better words) that nitrous oxide puts you in when
                          compared to NDE's...

                          Some background: Nitrous oxide is a dissociative anesthetic and NMDA
                          receptor antagnoist. Drug effects include euphoria, bliss, flanging of
                          sounds, pulsating closed eye visuals. perception of time ceases when used in
                          larger doses. A second can be drawn out for what seems like several minutes.
                          Feeling of great knowledge/understan ding (Even the simplest idea can feel
                          like a major revelation). .. Feeling as if you are out of a physical body. All
                          sorts of odd things.

                          I know that a lot of the effects listed above arent remotely close to
                          what's experienced in an NDE. But others seem to be similar. And it shows
                          that NMDA antagonists can produce bizzare effects that are possibly as strong
                          and real feeling (possibly) as a true NDE...

                          I'm not asking if anyone has tried it before. Nor do I endorse its usage.
                          However, I would like others input on why drugs such as nitrous (and PCP and
                          Ketamine, and some others) can have some close parallels to a near-death
                          experience.

                          I am trying to justify this in my mind. I am very scientifically oriented,
                          but also have an open mind when it comes to the stranger things in life. Any
                          thoughts would be appreciated.

                          Regards,
                          Brad

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                        • Linda ^i^ Stewart
                          Kiwanis To: nde@yahoogroups.com March 02, 2007 [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide Do you still feel you are free of an egoic identity? or was this freedom just while you
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 3, 2007
                            Kiwanis To: nde@yahoogroups.com March 02, 2007 [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide
                             
                             Do you still feel you are free of an egoic identity? or was this freedom just while you had the experience? Or is it a part of your straddling both worlds?
                             
                            Dear Noni,
                            I definitely have an egoic identity - it's impossible to be in this world without one.  By definition, ego is that which believes in form and I bump into coffee tables just like everyone else, I have a body I dress, I have a mouth with which I speak to "others" outside of me.  The difference for me (as opposed to before my NDE) is I know that there are not really objects, people, etc., there except as a form of a type of dream...an exquisitely valuable dream in which I can continue the unfolding of my path toward enlightenment.  Before the NDE, that was only a concept - since the NDE, it is a reality for me.
                             
                            NONI:  Most NDE and OBE studies say that the after effects of both (NDE and OBE) are simular. I feel sure the memory of your NDE would make your personality change more dramatic..Your memory of the event tells you it was 'huge' and I won't argue that.. It was hugely different from an 'OBE only' event. But, I feel, the after effects of an 'OBE only' event can be remarkable even if it is not 'huge'..
                             
                            LINDA:  Without question.  I've also had OBEs and how can one not be affected when one knows that his or her consciousness is non-local?
                             
                            NONI:  Russia has been doing Ketamine experiments to cure alcoholism. I read that there were some successes. I also heard of some downsides (like brain damage or ketamine addiction) that are not talked about much. It seems they are also doing a study of personality changes, of those participating, in the newer ketamine studies. One Russian study claims that there have been a noticable changes in spirituality in some of the subjects undergoing the treatment. Being a society of many athiests, this finding is worth noting.
                             
                            LINDA:  I wonder what those spiritual changes are...did they say?
                            With love,
                            Linda


                            Linda ^i^ Stewart wrote:

                            Dear Brad and Noni,
                            The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing affirmative.  OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs.
                            With love,
                            Linda
                          • Linda ^i^ Stewart
                            Dear Valerie, What was that? It was an OBE, as you said. The reason I would still classify it as a mind event is that it was still the Valerie personality
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 3, 2007
                              Dear Valerie,
                              What was that?  It was an OBE, as you said.  The reason I would still classify it as a mind event is that it was still the Valerie personality that recognized and responded.
                              With love,
                              Linda
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: valerie
                              Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 9:43 PM
                              Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                              From Valerie,
                               
                              My OBE showed me that my Horse was injured, he had a broken leg, I had been standing at the gate to the field with friends, and he actually was four or five paddocks away from where we were, it was a large property. I did not know there was a paddock where I found him. So what was that?
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 2:18 AM
                              Subject: Re: [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide

                              Dear Brad and Noni,
                              The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing affirmative.  OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs.
                              With love,
                              Linda
                              .

                            • moonflower_gardener
                              Linda, you said, The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are life-changing
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 5, 2007
                                Linda, you said, "The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug
                                induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are
                                life-changing affirmative. "

                                I think you might be trying to paint with too wide of a brush?

                                I have personally known people who've had drug induced trips - and
                                drug inuced NDE's, which certainly did create permanent life-
                                affirming change.

                                At the same time, I believe there are many of the more 'mainstream'
                                NDE-ers - in particular those who have never dared speak of it,
                                shelved the experience away for decades... etc... due to fear or
                                confusion, other things, where it made no particular change in them
                                at all.

                                Just a few examples: I had a friend many decades ago who
                                unintentionally took a bad street dose of what he thought was PCP,
                                which turned out to be straight full-strength elephant tranquilizer.
                                Rushed to the ER, he died, (according to the doctors, who declared
                                him dead), with his friends and sons at his side. Total flat-line and
                                no brain activity.

                                He NDE'd --- he saw himself and other people, some he knew and some
                                not, all buried up to their necks in sand. A conveyor belt was going
                                by above, and as it came over each head, the person would open their
                                mouths and a hit of acid drop on their tongues (LSD.) As it neared
                                him, he wanted out so badly... he didn't want the acid... he wanted
                                to move, to dance, to make love... but his limbs and body were
                                trapped in the sand. The only 'way out' was the acid, and he knew
                                that would only free his mind. This I guess was one of those rare
                                negative-experience NDE's.

                                He ended up coming back --- he saw himself climbing up the rib cage
                                of his son, struggling... and more weird stuff, and to the doctors'
                                amazement, he revived. This was definitely a drug-induced (though
                                more a mistake than a voluntary) NDE. It DID totally impact the
                                man's life. It took him many years to come clean from drugs... but
                                he did. (Most especially, when the other people he had recognized
                                buried in the sand, began to die -- some from drug overdoses, one in
                                a ghastly drug-related murder.) He never forgot that experience, and
                                as his friends started dying, the reality of what he'd seen loomed
                                larger and larger for him. He eventually quit drugs.

                                And btw, I believe there's a similar scene to this in... What Dreams
                                May Come? (Robin Williams movie? Or some similar?) For the record,
                                this man's experience happened in 1975 or 6.

                                And what about the Native American spirituality, which, in some
                                traditions, hold peyote and hallucinogenic mushrooms as sacred - even
                                legally recognized by our government for them. Because they allow
                                the concious spirit to break free from the physical hold of the body,
                                and experience some of the spiritual realms which are always around
                                us, but rarely seen, so locked into physical reality are we.

                                This is a sacred tradition that NA's have held for unknown countless
                                years. And my understanding of it is, that it certainly does create
                                life-affirming changes for those who partake, even though it is 'a
                                drug-induced trip.' It still apparently has just a profound effect
                                on those who take it. (Or CAN at least, not to say always.) Just as
                                I don't think it's accurate to say that every NDE creates life-
                                affirming changes.

                                Again, I think that's too wide of a brush.

                                Humans can have life-affirming changes from anything... the chance
                                talk with a stranger at a bus-stop, a war, a storm, a lucid dream, a
                                meditation.

                                "OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to
                                the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs."

                                Again, I think that would be extremely individual.
                              • Linda ^i^ Stewart
                                moonflower_gardener To: nde@yahoogroups.com March 05, 2007 [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide Linda, you said, The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug induced
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 5, 2007
                                  moonflower_gardener To: nde@yahoogroups.com  March 05, 2007 [nde] Re: Nitrous Oxide
                                   

                                  Linda, you said, "The *huge* difference is that an NDE, unlike drug
                                  induced trips, makes permanent changes in the personality that are
                                  life-changing affirmative. "

                                  I think you might be trying to paint with too wide of a brush?

                                  Dear MG,

                                  That is certainly possible.  I can only speak from experience and exposure.

                                  MG:  I have personally known people who've had drug induced trips - and
                                  drug inuced NDE's, which certainly did create permanent life-
                                  affirming change.

                                  LINDA:  I only know of one...and it appears that he accidentally killed himself with the trip and ended up having an NDE.

                                  MG:  At the same time, I believe there are many of the more 'mainstream'
                                  NDE-ers - in particular those who have never dared speak of it,
                                  shelved the experience away for decades... etc... due to fear or
                                  confusion, other things, where it made no particular change in them
                                  at all.

                                  LINDA:  Really?  Based on what?  I've yet to meet an NDEr who was not profoundly moved by his or her experience.

                                  MG:  Just a few examples: I had a friend many decades ago who
                                  unintentionally took a bad street dose of what he thought was PCP,
                                  which turned out to be straight full-strength elephant tranquilizer.
                                  Rushed to the ER, he died, (according to the doctors, who declared
                                  him dead), with his friends and sons at his side. Total flat-line and
                                  no brain activity.
                                      He NDE'd --- he saw himself and other people, some he knew and some
                                  not, all buried up to their necks in sand. A conveyor belt was going
                                  by above, and as it came over each head, the person would open their
                                  mouths and a hit of acid drop on their tongues (LSD.) As it neared
                                  him, he wanted out so badly... he didn't want the acid... he wanted
                                  to move, to dance, to make love... but his limbs and body were
                                  trapped in the sand. The only 'way out' was the acid, and he knew
                                  that would only free his mind. This I guess was one of those rare
                                  negative-experience NDE's.

                                  LINDA:  Just out of curiosity, why do you think this was an NDE?  It has none of the components associated with an NDE, outside of the doctors declaring a flat-line.

                                  MG:  He ended up coming back --- he saw himself climbing up the rib cage
                                  of his son, struggling.. . and more weird stuff, and to the doctors'
                                  amazement, he revived. This was definitely a drug-induced (though
                                  more a mistake than a voluntary) NDE. It DID totally impact the
                                  man's life. It took him many years to come clean from drugs... but
                                  he did. (Most especially, when the other people he had recognized
                                  buried in the sand, began to die -- some from drug overdoses, one in
                                  a ghastly drug-related murder.) He never forgot that experience, and
                                  as his friends started dying, the reality of what he'd seen loomed
                                  larger and larger for him. He eventually quit drugs.

                                  LINDA:  Does your friend call his experience an NDE or is that what you call it?  There are all kinds of OBEs that have nothing to do with an NDE.

                                      And, I can certainly understand why this kind of a horrifying vision and then the ensuing suffering and deaths of his drug-friends could make a change in someone.

                                  MG:  And btw, I believe there's a similar scene to this in... What Dreams
                                  May Come? (Robin Williams movie? Or some similar?) For the record,
                                  this man's experience happened in 1975 or 6.

                                  LINDA:  Yeah, there were many aspects of "What Dreams May Come" that didn't ring true for me as NDE-like.  It felt like the author used a powerful tool to tell a fictional story; thereby muddying the essence of the real thing.

                                  MG:  And what about the Native American spirituality, which, in some
                                  traditions, hold peyote and hallucinogenic mushrooms as sacred - even
                                  legally recognized by our government for them. Because they allow
                                  the concious spirit to break free from the physical hold of the body,
                                  and experience some of the spiritual realms which are always around
                                  us, but rarely seen, so locked into physical reality are we.

                                  LINDA:  There are rare instances (in my opinion) of Native Americans who have had true revelations through NDEs and come back with extraordinary insights.  Other than that, I don't see their drug trips and 'visions' any different than the drug trips and 'visions' of my community during the 70s.

                                  Yep, we were hippies.

                                   

                                  While on the trip, they talked about phenomenal insights - once they came back to reality, they were not so...ahem, phenomenal.  And, baby, I've seen a whole lotta trippin' in my time. <smile> Since then,  I've also been privileged to talk one-on-one with hundreds of people who have had all kinds of experiences - supernatural, metaphysical, OBE and NDE, etc.  This is on what I base my opinions.

                                  MG:  This is a sacred tradition that NA's have held for unknown countless
                                  years. And my understanding of it is, that it certainly does create
                                  life-affirming changes for those who partake, even though it is 'a
                                  drug-induced trip.'

                                  LINDA:  My (somewhat limited) understanding of the culture is that these visions were brought back into very supportive environments in which they were given the due of symbolism and then applied.  I think we can do that today with OBEs and drug trips, as well as dreams and learn huge amounts about the egoic nature in relationship to the spiritual.  I just don't think they are NDEs.  I think I recall that many of these Shamans had what appeared to be NDEs in relationship to illnesses.   Black Elk, for instance, became very sick at the age of 9 when he had the beginning of his wisdom through what looks like an NDE.

                                  MG:  It still apparently has just a profound effect
                                  on those who take it. (Or CAN at least, not to say always.) Just as
                                  I don't think it's accurate to say that every NDE creates life-
                                  affirming changes.

                                  Again, I think that's too wide of a brush.

                                  LINDA:  I guess I would need to know what you mean by life affirming changes....which is not what I said.  I said life changing affirmative.  Please excuse the poor communicating, but I've yet to meet an NDEr who did not affirm life changing attitudes/beliefs in the most profound way after their experience.  I have met tons of OBErs and druggers who have not.

                                  MG:  Humans can have life-affirming changes from anything... the chance
                                  talk with a stranger at a bus-stop, a war, a storm, a lucid dream, a
                                  meditation.

                                  LINDA:  Of course they can - but never at the level of an NDE.

                                  (Linda)"OBE's, like drug trips, appear to be mind/ego based, as opposed to
                                  the release of egoic identity that accompany many NDEs."

                                  MG:  Again, I think that would be extremely individual.

                                  LINDA:  Until I have seen differently, I maintain my assertion.  I also honor your opinions as very real for you, too.

                                  With love,

                                  Linda

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