Re: Big gods Ã¢â¬â little g ods Keeping the myth of ...
When I was a FWer I thought I had the power to do (to choose to do)
the "right" thing based upon current information and an innate
ethical sense. It seemed like at any point in present time I should
be able to over-ride old data and over-ride any internal impulses,
feelings, emotions, that conflicted with doing the "right" thing. I
thought also that others had this same power, the power of free will.
It just *felt like* people have this ability that we call free will.
What the FW position fails to take into account is the fact that our
genetic drives and abilities, feelings, emotions, and past cultural
conditioning, interact in complex ways and exert their influences in
largely unconscious ways. It is not possible to "rise above" or
separate oneself from all of this in order to make a decision -- not
on the basis of FW or by any other means. When we analyze our
decisions, it becomes apparent that our decisions are caused by
complex factors, determinants, that make us who and what we are, and
cause our decisions to be as they are. Free Will is an ILLUSION!
Stephen, sometimes you come up with some interesting new ways to look
at things, and sometimes your posts just do not make sense. This
current post of yours is in the latter category. (At least I cannot
make sense of it.) I appreciate your efforts to get a better handle
on FW/NFW, but it seems like you try so hard sometimes to dissect and
explain these issues that you wind up going into absurdity.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, stephenlawr0001@...
>what illusion are
> In a message dated 23/02/2007 19:41:16 GMT Standard Time,
> philosopherknight@... writes:
> Here you say, âWe can attack the illusion as wellâ¦â Well
> you talking about, you just made the assertion that there is noillusion.
>free will is
> not at all we experience illusions but when people believe that
> an illusion they then jump to the conclusion it is one of theillusions they
> experience.see how this
> Then in the next breath you reference âthe illusionâ. Do you
> is a bit unstable?before but
> I see the mistake you have made.
> In closing you say, âI know I'm only repeating a point I've made
> I think it's important enough to bring it up again occassionaly.âto advance
> Obviously it seem important to you, Stephen. But it does nothing
> anyoneâs understanding of naturalism or NFWism, so Iâm notsure anyone else
> on this forum shares your feeling that it is of any importancethat you keep
> trying to advance the idea that there is no FW illusion.will, we
> Yes, it can help a great deal, if I am correct.
> I have just been talking to someone who thinks if we have no free
> have no choice and no control.are
> The reason is they think if we have no free will then these things
> illusions, rather than understanding that we have control, we makechoices but
> free will is not required to do these things.is not
> Believing free will is an illusion is very damaging if in fact it
> 1. because the belief is what causes people to jump to all sorts of
> conclusions about what it means not to have it.with the
> 2. because people will continue to argue that it is best to live
> illusion (the one they presume to be the free will illusion) as itis a useful
> fiction.easily but
> We can keep the fiction and stop the erroneous belief ,relatively
> challenging both is much harder and generates unnecessaryresistance and
> As the fiction may be useful and is not what is doing the harm, why
> The erroneous belief is the problem. I keep trying to come up with
> definitions of this.would make
> My latest effort is the belief that we have a kind of power that
> us responsible for the fact that we are who we are and do what wedo.
> It is this belief that makes people think others are deserving of
> happens to them and causes callousness, cruelty, hatred, blame,bitterness,
> resentment, guilt, shame and so on and so on.impression
> I don't think we experience any illusion that would give us this
> and when I've challenged you to describe the illusion you'veeither said the
> illusion is that there is a seperate I controlling the mind andbody, which
> would not give us the responsibility I mentioned, or a vague notionof a
> feeling of being able to do otherwise, which would not seriouslycount as an
> Come up with a better answer as to what the illusion is and I may
> you.with the
> while you can't come up with any evidence I'll continue to doubt,
> motivation that I believe the best way forward is to dispel thismyth too, if
> indeed I'm right to think it is.