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Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Diameter of SAC matters?

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  • Mike
    Thanks Mike. I ve got two blanks ready for plugs guess its time to test some theories. Mike Sent from my iPad ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 29, 2013
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      Thanks Mike. I've got two blanks ready for plugs guess its time to test some theories.

      Mike

      Sent from my iPad

      On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Michael Jones <jonesmr@...> wrote:

      > A flat face in the bore is likely to be best, the other end could use some shaping.
      >
      > Mike Jones
      >
      > From: Mike <the-fish@...>
      > To: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
      > Cc: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:15 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Diameter of SAC matters?
      >
      > I typically make one piece flutes, using a Forstners bit I bore out just short of the mouth piece and make a plug out of what ever type of wood the flute is made from and seal it off. This conversation has got me wondering if I should try to contour the plug and the end of my bore hole to get more of a router style finish. Does anyone have a thought on this ?
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • rdbat1
      I have not been able to reply to posts for a few days now...just checking if it works again.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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        I have not been able to reply to posts for a few days now...just checking if it works again.

        --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "rdbat1" <rdbat1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        > A beginner here with a question. I see slow air chambers that are the same bore as the sound tube (ex 3/4" SAC and 3/4" sound tube) and others where the SAC is different from the rest of the flute (ex 1/4" SAC and 3/4" sound tube). I may be using the wrong terminology for the main chamber of the flute where the finger holes are.
        >
        > How much of a difference does this make? Is there advantages to one over the other? Does one style give a better sound?
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        > Randy
        >
      • Randy Bates
        Hi, A question about using the forstner bits. I have quite a range of sizes of them but the shaft on them isn t much over 5 inches long. What do you do to get
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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          Hi,
          A question about using the forstner bits. I have quite a range of sizes of them but the shaft on them isn't much over 5 inches long. What do you do to get a long enough shaft to bore  the length of a flute? Is there some extension or do you buy a forstner bit with a long shaft?

          Second question...bore them using a lathe? Is there other methods I should look at? I have a lathe.




          ________________________________
          From: Mike <the-fish@...>
          To: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:15 PM
          Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Diameter of SAC matters?



           
          I typically make one piece flutes, using a Forstners bit I bore out just short of the mouth piece and make a plug out of what ever type of wood the flute is made from and seal it off. This conversation has got me wondering if I should try to contour the plug and the end of my bore hole to get more of a router style finish. Does anyone have a thought on this ?

          Sent from my iPad

          On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:19 PM, "rdbat1" <rdbat1@...> wrote:

          > I am confused as to how one piece flutes are done then. I assumed you would drill the bore full length (say 3/4") stopping about an inch short of the far end where the mouth piece would be. Then I thought you would take a plug the size of the bore and glue it in about 3-5" inches from the mouth piece to create the SAC. Put some form of liquid sealant in to make sure no air leaked past plug. Viola, SAC same bore all the way. Am I wrong here? Do lots of one piece flutes wind up with smaller bore for SAC?
          >
          > --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "UziRyder1 ." <kklingman@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > You know that's a really great question. The theory is that the SAC acts
          > > as a plenum chamber, whose primary function is, as I understand it, to
          > > smooth a turbulent airflow before heading out the SAC exit hole and then
          > > down the flue to the TSH. As to why the SAC is the same size as the bore,
          > > the answer is, most likely, that one doesn't have to change router bits.
          > > The really interesting part of it is, does the SAC actually smooth the air
          > > flow?
          > >
          > > One piece flute makers that drill the bore and mouthpiece don't have a SAC
          > > at all, and yet their flutes sound just fine. On flutes made in two
          > > pieces, one can get the SAC sanded as smooth as glass, but during glue up,
          > > there's no really thorough way to clean the excess glue from the SAC
          > > walls. The dried glue in the SAC might actually, create more turbulence in
          > > the air stream than if there was no sac at all. What do y'all think?
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike
          I have a rebuilt 1955 Shopsmith, a combo tool; planer, drill press lathe all sorts if adapters are made for it. It sound like something that would never be
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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            I have a rebuilt 1955 Shopsmith, a combo tool; planer, drill press lathe all sorts if adapters are made for it. It sound like something that would never be good at any of those functions but it really is very nicely engineered. I picked it up at a yard sale for $200, $40 for new bearings, 20 for a new belt and I was off and running. One of the best tools I ever bought. I set up jig to keep the blank in place on the saw table using 2" aluminum angle stock, I also drilled out the table top and using 3/8" threaded rod clamp everything down nice and tight. The bed is long enough to let me work with a reasonable assortment of blank sizes. I typically work with 30" blanks. I also have about five different hex stock extensions that I made to reach up to a total of 30" long but I only bore out 27" to 28". I start out with the standard bit and work my way up in length until I get the depth I want. I have found it pays to thoroughly vacuum out the bore hole several times during the operation. It seems to help keep the bit from deflecting. Wasted more then a few nice pieces of wood before I figured that out. The hex stock can be purchased on line, I bought a couple of short extensions at Home depot and re-fit them to the longer shafts. The Shopsmiths are still being manufactured but even the old ones are a good investment. Best off all the manufacturer still makes and stocks parts for all it's models.


            Regards, Mike


            Sent from my iPad

            On Jul 31, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Randy Bates <rdbat1@...> wrote:

            > Hi,
            > A question about using the forstner bits. I have quite a range of sizes of them but the shaft on them isn't much over 5 inches long. What do you do to get a long enough shaft to bore the length of a flute? Is there some extension or do you buy a forstner bit with a long shaft?
            >
            > Second question...bore them using a lathe? Is there other methods I should look at? I have a lathe.
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Mike <the-fish@...>
            > To: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
            > Cc: "nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com" <nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:15 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Diameter of SAC matters?
            >
            >
            >
            > I typically make one piece flutes, using a Forstners bit I bore out just short of the mouth piece and make a plug out of what ever type of wood the flute is made from and seal it off. This conversation has got me wondering if I should try to contour the plug and the end of my bore hole to get more of a router style finish. Does anyone have a thought on this ?
            >
            > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:19 PM, "rdbat1" <rdbat1@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I am confused as to how one piece flutes are done then. I assumed you would drill the bore full length (say 3/4") stopping about an inch short of the far end where the mouth piece would be. Then I thought you would take a plug the size of the bore and glue it in about 3-5" inches from the mouth piece to create the SAC. Put some form of liquid sealant in to make sure no air leaked past plug. Viola, SAC same bore all the way. Am I wrong here? Do lots of one piece flutes wind up with smaller bore for SAC?
            > >
            > > --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, "UziRyder1 ." <kklingman@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > You know that's a really great question. The theory is that the SAC acts
            > > > as a plenum chamber, whose primary function is, as I understand it, to
            > > > smooth a turbulent airflow before heading out the SAC exit hole and then
            > > > down the flue to the TSH. As to why the SAC is the same size as the bore,
            > > > the answer is, most likely, that one doesn't have to change router bits.
            > > > The really interesting part of it is, does the SAC actually smooth the air
            > > > flow?
            > > >
            > > > One piece flute makers that drill the bore and mouthpiece don't have a SAC
            > > > at all, and yet their flutes sound just fine. On flutes made in two
            > > > pieces, one can get the SAC sanded as smooth as glass, but during glue up,
            > > > there's no really thorough way to clean the excess glue from the SAC
            > > > walls. The dried glue in the SAC might actually, create more turbulence in
            > > > the air stream than if there was no sac at all. What do y'all think?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Clif Dawson
            You can get extension shafts. I have a couple. I don t, though, use those things. I use Lee Valley ship augers and a jig system. There s some of it in my
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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              You can get extension shafts. I have a
              couple. I don't, though, use those things.
              I use Lee Valley ship augers and a jig
              system. There's some of it in my photo
              album.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nativeflutewoodworking/photos/album/1949549909/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

              http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=45003&cat=1,180,42240

              If I remember rightly, the trick with Forstners is
              that you have to slice a slot down the flute
              blank then fill in most of it leaving a square
              little guide hole down the center. Without that
              hole a Forstner will wander with vagaries in
              the grain, possibly even out the side.

              Also my practice is to bore 7/8" past the plug
              position then 3/4" for the SAC. I use wine
              corks, which, of course, gives me two levels
              of enjoyment. :-) These are cut in half to
              provide two plugs. one end has a taper cut
              in for about 1/4". The plug is then run down
              the bore wedge first and rammed home into
              the shoulder of the 3/4" SAC.

              When you're able to get over here you'll
              see what I'm doing. :-)

              Clif


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Randy Bates
              To: nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [Native Flute Woodworking] Re: Diameter of SAC matters?



              Hi,
              Is there some extension or do you buy a forstner bit with a long shaft?




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Richard Ortega
              Here are my 2 cents on boring flutes. I have gone through several trail and error stages so I will explain them. First of all I too have a Shopsmith and do 90
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 1, 2013
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                Here are my 2 cents on boring flutes. I have gone through several trail
                and error stages so I will explain them. First of all I too have a
                Shopsmith and do 90 percent of my flute making on it. As for boring I
                started out using forstner drill bits with long extensions. The
                shopsmith served as a horizonal drill press. This method worked about 50
                % of the time. The bit would drift and when I turned it on the lathe I
                would end up with uneven wall thickness or blow outs. I did some
                research and discovered a special drill bit used for rifle boring. It is
                referred to as a "D" bit or "Hog nose Bit. The design of the bit
                minimizes the drifting of the hole. You could purchase a rifle boring
                machine and the problem would be resolved. The cost to do that is very
                expensive, however there is a woodworking bit that uses the same design.
                The bit is called a "Shell Auger Bit" and is used to drill the
                electrical cord hole in wooden lamps. The bit works to drill holes with
                minimal drift. It is very cheap and can be purchased in a couple of
                places. I purchased mine at Wookworkers Supply for $10. The draw back is
                it comes in only two sizes 3/8 and 5/16 inch. So what I did was I used
                the bit to drill a pilot hole first and then drilled the bore with a
                ship auger bit. I drill the pilot hole on the lathe turning the flute
                blank and feeding the shell auger bit through the "Tail stock holder".
                The tail stock holder should have a removable pin to allow the bit to be
                pushed into the flute blank. Once the pilot hole is drilled I use the
                shopsmith as a horizonal drill press and drill with ship auger bit. The
                bit will follow the pilot hole using the screw feed on the bit as guild
                pin. I haven't had a blow out since going to this method. I have done a
                couple of improvements like going to a three cutter auger bit made by
                Wood Owl. It is their Ultra Smooth line and is like a ship auger but has
                three cutter as oppose to one. I have also upgraded to the rifle boring
                drill bit which I use on the lathe and feed it the same way as the Shell
                auger bit. The reason for that upgrade was the different sizes on hand.
                The design also allowed compressed air to be feed into the hole to clear
                the chips via a hollow core. This bit cost more but can be found on ebay
                for a reasonable price.

                The posting also asked about using a plug or leaving the wall in place.
                I have done both and I think it is up to what the maker prefers. When
                leaving the wall I drill the bore leaving the wall and then drill from
                the other end drilling the SAC and add a mouth piece. I use a plug now
                so I can incorporate a ramp in the SAC.

                Hope this all makes sense..
              • Mike
                I really enjoy the wealth of knowledge the people on this site bring to the table. I wish I had found this group I when my addiction to these flutes began. I
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 1, 2013
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                  I really enjoy the wealth of knowledge the people on this site bring to the table. I wish I had found this group I when my addiction to these flutes began. I could have saved so much effort and a few trees as well!

                  Thanks, Mike


                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Richard Ortega <rcortega@...> wrote:

                  > Here are my 2 cents on boring flutes. I have gone through several trail
                  > and error stages so I will explain them. First of all I too have a
                  > Shopsmith and do 90 percent of my flute making on it. As for boring I
                  > started out using forstner drill bits with long extensions. The
                  > shopsmith served as a horizonal drill press. This method worked about 50
                  > % of the time. The bit would drift and when I turned it on the lathe I
                  > would end up with uneven wall thickness or blow outs. I did some
                  > research and discovered a special drill bit used for rifle boring. It is
                  > referred to as a "D" bit or "Hog nose Bit. The design of the bit
                  > minimizes the drifting of the hole. You could purchase a rifle boring
                  > machine and the problem would be resolved. The cost to do that is very
                  > expensive, however there is a woodworking bit that uses the same design.
                  > The bit is called a "Shell Auger Bit" and is used to drill the
                  > electrical cord hole in wooden lamps. The bit works to drill holes with
                  > minimal drift. It is very cheap and can be purchased in a couple of
                  > places. I purchased mine at Wookworkers Supply for $10. The draw back is
                  > it comes in only two sizes 3/8 and 5/16 inch. So what I did was I used
                  > the bit to drill a pilot hole first and then drilled the bore with a
                  > ship auger bit. I drill the pilot hole on the lathe turning the flute
                  > blank and feeding the shell auger bit through the "Tail stock holder".
                  > The tail stock holder should have a removable pin to allow the bit to be
                  > pushed into the flute blank. Once the pilot hole is drilled I use the
                  > shopsmith as a horizonal drill press and drill with ship auger bit. The
                  > bit will follow the pilot hole using the screw feed on the bit as guild
                  > pin. I haven't had a blow out since going to this method. I have done a
                  > couple of improvements like going to a three cutter auger bit made by
                  > Wood Owl. It is their Ultra Smooth line and is like a ship auger but has
                  > three cutter as oppose to one. I have also upgraded to the rifle boring
                  > drill bit which I use on the lathe and feed it the same way as the Shell
                  > auger bit. The reason for that upgrade was the different sizes on hand.
                  > The design also allowed compressed air to be feed into the hole to clear
                  > the chips via a hollow core. This bit cost more but can be found on ebay
                  > for a reasonable price.
                  >
                  > The posting also asked about using a plug or leaving the wall in place.
                  > I have done both and I think it is up to what the maker prefers. When
                  > leaving the wall I drill the bore leaving the wall and then drill from
                  > the other end drilling the SAC and add a mouth piece. I use a plug now
                  > so I can incorporate a ramp in the SAC.
                  >
                  > Hope this all makes sense..
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rdbat1
                  I agree...I have learned so much in this one thread. And my three blanks sit on the coffee table untouched because I want to learn more before I begin (well to
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 1, 2013
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                    I agree...I have learned so much in this one thread. And my three blanks sit on the coffee table untouched because I want to learn more before I begin (well to be honest my wife has me renovating the bathroom and my daughter's room which seems to be getting in the way too.)
                    Honestly, the knowledge I am gaining through this thread will go a long ways towards setting me up to be able to teach my students to do this in a year or two and I will be able to do it in an affordable way with them.

                    I thought this thread might go nowhere after starting it and then realizing there was a lot of info on the topic already and I needed to put more time into my searches.
                    Great info, thanks.

                    --- In nativeflutewoodworking@yahoogroups.com, Mike <the-fish@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I really enjoy the wealth of knowledge the people on this site bring to the table. I wish I had found this group I when my addiction to these flutes began. I could have saved so much effort and a few trees as well!
                    >
                    > Thanks, Mike
                    >
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Richard Ortega <rcortega@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Here are my 2 cents on boring flutes. I have gone through several trail
                    > > and error stages so I will explain them. First of all I too have a
                    > > Shopsmith and do 90 percent of my flute making on it. As for boring I
                    > > started out using forstner drill bits with long extensions. The
                    > > shopsmith served as a horizonal drill press. This method worked about 50
                    > > % of the time. The bit would drift and when I turned it on the lathe I
                    > > would end up with uneven wall thickness or blow outs. I did some
                    > > research and discovered a special drill bit used for rifle boring. It is
                    > > referred to as a "D" bit or "Hog nose Bit. The design of the bit
                    > > minimizes the drifting of the hole. You could purchase a rifle boring
                    > > machine and the problem would be resolved. The cost to do that is very
                    > > expensive, however there is a woodworking bit that uses the same design.
                    > > The bit is called a "Shell Auger Bit" and is used to drill the
                    > > electrical cord hole in wooden lamps. The bit works to drill holes with
                    > > minimal drift. It is very cheap and can be purchased in a couple of
                    > > places. I purchased mine at Wookworkers Supply for $10. The draw back is
                    > > it comes in only two sizes 3/8 and 5/16 inch. So what I did was I used
                    > > the bit to drill a pilot hole first and then drilled the bore with a
                    > > ship auger bit. I drill the pilot hole on the lathe turning the flute
                    > > blank and feeding the shell auger bit through the "Tail stock holder".
                    > > The tail stock holder should have a removable pin to allow the bit to be
                    > > pushed into the flute blank. Once the pilot hole is drilled I use the
                    > > shopsmith as a horizonal drill press and drill with ship auger bit. The
                    > > bit will follow the pilot hole using the screw feed on the bit as guild
                    > > pin. I haven't had a blow out since going to this method. I have done a
                    > > couple of improvements like going to a three cutter auger bit made by
                    > > Wood Owl. It is their Ultra Smooth line and is like a ship auger but has
                    > > three cutter as oppose to one. I have also upgraded to the rifle boring
                    > > drill bit which I use on the lathe and feed it the same way as the Shell
                    > > auger bit. The reason for that upgrade was the different sizes on hand.
                    > > The design also allowed compressed air to be feed into the hole to clear
                    > > the chips via a hollow core. This bit cost more but can be found on ebay
                    > > for a reasonable price.
                    > >
                    > > The posting also asked about using a plug or leaving the wall in place.
                    > > I have done both and I think it is up to what the maker prefers. When
                    > > leaving the wall I drill the bore leaving the wall and then drill from
                    > > the other end drilling the SAC and add a mouth piece. I use a plug now
                    > > so I can incorporate a ramp in the SAC.
                    > >
                    > > Hope this all makes sense..
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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