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Re: Help understanding

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  • maryly01
    ... Sam, Happy New Year to you too. As I look at your numbers, I see something else I like about the FairTax besides the fact that I get April 15th back, and
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2008
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      ---

      Sam,

      Happy New Year to you too.

      As I look at your numbers, I see something else I like about the
      FairTax besides the fact that I get April 15th back, and it takes the
      envy tool out of the hands of tax manipulators, I can be charitable
      without keeping records, I can make domestic decisions without regard
      to tax consequences and...

      It puts right up front for all to see the cost of our government.
      Perhaps then people would not shrug off studying the sex habits of
      butterflies, or the Woodstock Museum, or the National Train Museum.

      When we work our booths, the number of people who tell us they don't
      pay taxes is staggering. Not only that, there are many of those
      people who think that their refund is a gift from the government. No
      wonder they are not concerned when Congress commissions a study to
      determine why toilet paper sticks to shoes. For that reason alone, I
      wouldn't care if the FairTax doubled the cost of the items we buy.

      Mary Lynn

      > Hi Mary (?),
      >
      > I'm getting worried that I'm not confused. I drilled into more
      detail, see
      > below. I'm hoping that one of the FairTax wizards well get me lined
      > out...might be after the New Year. And by the way, happy New Year.
      > On Dec 31, 2007 12:09 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@...> wrote:
      >
    • Sam Crowe
      ... Absolutely...and I m afraid that is the elephant in the room that makes congress folks likely to fight the FairTax to the bitter end, using every other
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2008
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        On Jan 1, 2008 4:08 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@...> wrote:

        It puts right up front for all to see the cost of our government. 

         

        For that reason alone, I
        wouldn't care if the FairTax doubled the cost of the items we buy.

        Mary Lynn

        .
         
        Absolutely...and I'm afraid that is the elephant in the room that makes congress folks likely to fight the FairTax to the bitter end, using every other excuse they can find.
         
        Sam
      • Aaron Schutte
        Exactly. Neither party in Congress is going to make the tax code simple and pro-growth by themselves but we re in the process of passing the FairTax
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 1, 2008
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          Exactly. Neither party in Congress is going to make the tax code simple and pro-growth by themselves but we’re in the process of passing the FairTax legislation right now. The vast majority of the 68 House and 4 Senate co-sponsors were forced onto the bill by grassroots pressure. That pressure is rapidly growing as more and more Americans find out about the FairTax and make their voices heard. As we move closer to another election our Presidential primary strategy is causing candidates to talk about the FairTax in front of the cameras. It’s part of our larger goal to make the FairTax a national agenda for America .

           

           

          Aaron Schutte

          Grassroots Special Projects Coordinator

          713.963.9023 ext. 9612

           


          From: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Crowe
          Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:09 PM
          To: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

           

          On Jan 1, 2008 4:08 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@sprynet. com> wrote:

          It puts right up front for all to see the cost of our government. 

           

          For that reason alone, I
          wouldn't care if the FairTax doubled the cost of the items we buy.

          Mary Lynn

          .

           

          Absolutely.. .and I'm afraid that is the elephant in the room that makes congress folks likely to fight the FairTax to the bitter end, using every other excuse they can find.

           

          Sam

        • maryly01
          ... every ... We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on whether that will ever happen? Mary Lynn
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 1, 2008
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            > Absolutely...and I'm afraid that is the elephant in the room that makes
            > congress folks likely to fight the FairTax to the bitter end, using
            every
            > other excuse they can find.
            >
            > Sam
            >

            We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on
            whether that will ever happen?

            Mary Lynn
          • Sam Crowe
            Hi Mary, I suppose the sad thing is I m more optimistic about a border fence than I am about the FairTax! Sam Wyoming
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2008
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              Hi Mary,
               
              I suppose the sad thing is I'm more optimistic about a border fence than I am about the FairTax!
               
              Sam
              Wyoming

              On Jan 2, 2008 12:55 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@...> wrote:


               
              We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on
              whether that will ever happen?

              Mary Lynn

              .


            • HowardJohnson
              Ya know I came on board the FairTax long before governor Huckabee made it a part of his platform. In 2001, when I went to Washington to talk to Congressman
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 4, 2008
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                Ya know I came on board the FairTax long before governor Huckabee made it a part of his platform.  In 2001, when I went to Washington to talk to Congressman Crenshaw (FL 3rd District) I was refused a meeting because his Tax Aide told me that it would never happen.  Today Congressman Crenshaw  along with 56 other members of the House and 4 members of the Senate are co-signer on the FairTax Act.   I would remind you that in 1999, when it was introduced only 8 members of the House had co-signed and it hadn't even been introduced in the Senate.   Today we have a presidential candidate advocating it.  We've come a long way, baby!  To be sure we have a long way to go so let's stop all of this negative talk and get on with it....
                Howard Johnson   
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sam Crowe
                Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:55 AM
                Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                Hi Mary,
                 
                I suppose the sad thing is I'm more optimistic about a border fence than I am about the FairTax!
                 
                Sam
                Wyoming

                On Jan 2, 2008 12:55 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@sprynet. com> wrote:


                 
                We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on
                whether that will ever happen?

                Mary Lynn

                .


              • Aaron Schutte
                Thanks to all you folks like Howard that have supported the FairTax in it s infancy but just a note, we re not up to 68 House co-sponsors. :-) Aaron Schutte
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 4, 2008
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                  Thanks to all you folks like Howard that have supported the FairTax in it’s infancy but just a note, we’re not up to 68 House co-sponsors. J

                   

                   

                  Aaron Schutte

                  Grassroots Special Projects Coordinator

                  713.963.9023 ext. 9612

                   


                  From: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of HowardJohnson
                  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:04 AM
                  To: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                   

                  Ya know I came on board the FairTax long before governor Huckabee made it a part of his platform.  In 2001, when I went to Washington to talk to Congressman Crenshaw (FL 3rd District) I was refused a meeting because his Tax Aide told me that it would never happen.  Today Congressman Crenshaw  along with 56 other members of the House and 4 members of the Senate are co-signer on the FairTax Act.   I would remind you that in 1999, when it was introduced only 8 members of the House had co-signed and it hadn't even been introduced in the Senate.   Today we have a presidential candidate advocating it.  We've come a long way, baby!  To be sure we have a long way to go so let's stop all of this negative talk and get on with it....

                  Howard Johnson   

                  ----- Original Message -----

                  From: Sam Crowe

                  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:55 AM

                  Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                   

                  Hi Mary,

                   

                  I suppose the sad thing is I'm more optimistic about a border fence than I am about the FairTax!

                   

                  Sam

                  Wyoming

                  On Jan 2, 2008 12:55 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@sprynet. com> wrote:


                   

                  We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on
                  whether that will ever happen?

                  Mary Lynn

                  .

                   

                   

                • Phil Lavoie
                  Does anyone think that due to Huckabee s success perhaps some of the other candidates may come around and openly and publicly support FairTax?
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 4, 2008
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                    Does anyone think that due to Huckabee’s success perhaps some of the other candidates may come around and openly and publicly support FairTax?

                     


                    From: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of HowardJohnson
                    Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:04 AM
                    To: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                     

                    Ya know I came on board the FairTax long before governor Huckabee made it a part of his platform.  In 2001, when I went to Washington to talk to Congressman Crenshaw (FL 3rd District) I was refused a meeting because his Tax Aide told me that it would never happen.  Today Congressman Crenshaw  along with 56 other members of the House and 4 members of the Senate are co-signer on the FairTax Act.   I would remind you that in 1999, when it was introduced only 8 members of the House had co-signed and it hadn't even been introduced in the Senate.   Today we have a presidential candidate advocating it.  We've come a long way, baby!  To be sure we have a long way to go so let's stop all of this negative talk and get on with it....

                    Howard Johnson   

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: Sam Crowe

                    Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:55 AM

                    Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                     

                    Hi Mary,

                     

                    I suppose the sad thing is I'm more optimistic about a border fence than I am about the FairTax!

                     

                    Sam

                    Wyoming

                    On Jan 2, 2008 12:55 AM, maryly01 <maryly01@sprynet. com> wrote:


                     

                    We certainly have a precedent with the border fence. Any bets on
                    whether that will ever happen?

                    Mary Lynn

                    .

                     

                     

                  • Sam Crowe
                    Hi Phil and all, I suspect they will try to show how they are different, resulting in more of the slanted attacks. Howard, While I appreciate that there have
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 4, 2008
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                      Hi Phil and all,
                       
                      I suspect they will try to show how they are different, resulting in more of the slanted attacks.
                       
                      Howard,
                       
                      While I appreciate that there have been a lot of co-signers, reality is the democrats control both houses and they aren't signing.  And, while most of the co-signers support the principles behind the FairTax, they don't know enough about it to defend it, and seem to back away rather than learn.  This is important, as the FairTax gains momentum, the attacks will get more media attention and the supporters out in the field need to know a lot more detail than they currently do (For example, some comments supporting the FairTax to the media have just been flat wrong).  I'm a little worried that my numbers haven't been addressed, are they correct, if not please explain.  Which brings me back to where/why I started this thread.
                       
                      Aaron,
                       
                      Can you, or do you know someone that can validate these numbers (reprinted from above), can we say that the FairTax would add approximately 14.7% increase on current consumer prices, while eliminating income taxes and getting the prebate?
                       
                      Attacks on the FairTax has been using 23% when the actual cost of the item would go up 30%.  I realize the hows and whys, but people thought they were being mislead with us saying it is a 23% tax on spent income, when items have to rise 30%, but in reality neither one of those numbers are accurate since it depends on the starting point.  Which comes down to the real embedded tax. 
                       
                      These are 2006 numbers widely available on the internet.
                       
                      Total Personal Consumption (what would be taxed by FairTax): $9224 billion
                      Total Federal Receipts: $2178 billion
                      And sure enough, that equals 23.6% , incredibly close to the 23.4% figure I calculated in my first post.
                      Which implies that yes, adding 1.6% on current priced products and services would cover the Federal receipts.
                       
                      Review of the numbers using total 2006 data:
                      Total Personal Consumption pre-FairTax: $9224 billion
                      Real market value (Consumption minus the presumed 22% embedded tax): $7195 billion
                      Total retail cost, after 30% FairTax: $9353 billion
                      Price difference (increase) post FairTax: 1.37% (9224 to 9353)
                       
                      So again, this looks great, and again it goes back to the problem.  Reworded: This would indicate that 94% of all Federal receipts is from embedded taxes (22% of total personal consumption).  But we know this isn't true, since in 2006 Federal income tax receipts were 1354 billion, which is 62% of the total Federal receipts.  So the maximum embedded taxes could only equal 38% of the total receipts, not 94%.
                       
                      Back to the 2006 numbers:
                      Other tax receipts (non-income, presumed embedded taxes): $822 billion
                      Embedded taxes as percent of total personal consumption: 8.9% far short of the 22%!
                      Yikes - back to the actual cost of an item to make the FairTax neutral:
                      Total personal consumption pre-FairTax: $9224 billion
                      Real market value (Consumption minus the real(?) embedded tax): $8403 billion
                      In order to be revenue neutral you'd have to add a 26% tax on the real market value.
                      $8403 billion X 1.26 = $10581 billion ($8403 for the retailer and $2178 billion for the Federal government)
                      2006 personal consumption: $9224 billion
                      Total value of personal consumption under a FairTax presuming an 8.9% embedded tax plus the difference to make revenue neutral: $10581 billion
                      Then, the FairTax would add 14.7% above current day prices to get rid of the income tax.
                       
                      This is a lot more realistic.  But it means explaining to everyone, that everything would cost 14.7% more than current day prices, but, you'd have no income tax and you would get a prebate.  But, if we are going to win this we have to be open about the numbers, and this is how it adds up to me.
                       
                      For information, I used the total revenue receipts, ($2178 billion in 2006) but the outlay was $2568 billion.  If congress can't cut spending all tax systems ultimately fail.  And if congress increases taxes prior to FairTax it will it increasingly harder to make the FairTax revenue neutral, making it harder to get implemented.
                       
                      Sam
                      Wyoming 
                      On Jan 4, 2008 2:31 PM, Phil Lavoie <hi_02144@...> wrote:

                      Does anyone think that due to Huckabee's success perhaps some of the other candidates may come around and openly and publicly support FairTax?

                       

                      On Behalf Of HowardJohnson


                      Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:04 AM
                      To: nationalfairtax@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [FairTax] Re: Help understanding

                      I would remind you that in 1999, when it was introduced only 8 members of the House had co-signed and it hadn't even been introduced in the Senate.   Today we have a presidential candidate advocating it.  We've come a long way, baby!  To be sure we have a long way to go so let's stop all of this negative talk and get on with it....

                      Howard Johnson   

                      .


                    • JPDMSmith@aol.com
                      Why don t we turn that 23/30 issue around. For the middle income earner who is in the 25% income tax bracket, the marginal tax rate is 32.65% (25% +
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 4, 2008
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                        Why don't we turn that 23/30 issue around.   For the middle income earner who is in the 25% income tax bracket, the marginal tax rate is 32.65% (25% + 7.65%), or 40.3% if self-employed.  So that worker has 32.65% taken from his paycheck, and when compared to what is left (67.35%), it is an effective add-on tax of 48.5%!  So the 23/30 FairTax issue is 32.65/48.5 under the current system, at least at the marginal rates.




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