798Re: The Seventh Web
- May 8, 2000--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, mariet@s... wrote:
> Hi folks,Welcome, I like your ideas. ;) Some of my reasons for proposing the
> I'm new to the list so I just wanted to say hi, and jump right into
> the conversation.
approach I am offering is described in post 755/ God & Selection,
much of the rest I promise to address in the paper I am going to
offer later this week, and a few I will address now.
> > there is a seventh web that nanotech makes possible. I call itnasty or unpleasant species?
> > the "Aerobic Alliance" though that is actually more limited
> > than it has to be.
> So you intend to protect all life? From what? From who? How do we
> protect herbavores from canivores? Do we protect pathogens and
All life is all life, but I am not for protecting the prey from
predators except where we are either the predator or the prey. Read
the thread on this and the other letter on God and Selection so that
you see where I am trying to go with this better. But these are
valid questions of Human Selection reasoning that you are proposing
and they should be addressed individually. All Life is Sacred. And
there is a very important issue of spirit that cannot be ignored here
even if you want that statement to be a question; Is all life sacred?
I think that at least nano tagging pathogens in the environment is
the major step for controlling them. It is also more important to
tag all symbiotic lifeforms such as Ecoli because of what is
necessary for creating the Nano interface to the biome in general. E-
coli can be made more efficient at digesting less food and effected
in many more ways along with many other symbionts. People could then
survive much better on less. We would need only need the usual
excuse of gluttony to justify the normal levels of excess by some.
> As for taging people, I'm guessing fairly early in the process we'llTagging people is central to the privacy/sovereignty debate and the
> all be networked up and finding an individual is going to be a
> pretty straight forward concept (except for ludites and
> technophobes who are committed to not becoming part of the process.)
first group to release a global tagging mechanism in isolation
analogous to the now infamous Echelon Project will be committing what
is viewed as a modern warlike act. It will be percieved as a violent
incursion of both civil and national liberties/rights.
I am saying the developers should go all the way right now and put it
on the United Nations table of discussions as more than just modern
effecient Global Life Management. Some of the reasons go to maximum
mapping of resources and providing data on what is in fact
happening. There are significant other reasons too.
This is too broad an issue to ignore and I will add the name for the
project, I call it building GAIA, Global Artificially Intelligent
Awareness. The rest of this I will talk about in the second paper I
promised already. Marie, Charlie says he is more of a Christian than
his own family suspects and I am a notorious pagan but I bet (and
desperately hope too) we could agree on many moral issues even if we
disagree on some. But he and I already have a working rational
relationship and are willing to discuss issues openly I sense.
Not all the pilgrims tried to exterminate the natives. In fact in
countries like Mexico, Peru, Ecuador and others around the world the
process of "Mestizaje" has created a world wide population that has
recognizable roots in conflicting cultures.
>There is much more than that coming with Geno-Nano Interfaced
> I agree, direct nanowiring to primary neural centers, and long term
> storage of life experience not to mention communication at the
> level of thought should prove to be fascinating.
technologies. There is viable multiple metamorphosis. I am not just
a Pagan I am a witch too. Now we get to hot-wire my familiars.
I just want to get this over with because the burnings have to stop.
It seems to have never occured to most people that we practice the
same science but interpret the message differently. Our motives are
less suspect in fact (we are Nature Worshippers after all) than for
most of the dominate peoples that have persecuted what they didn't
understand and were afraid of for millenia. We are Good and Bad
beings just like everyone else. But now we get to do shapshifting
and lots of other cool stuff we have always talked about. To risk
anticipating my own quotes:
"Politics and religion are strange bedfellows for science but history
shows them to be an inseparable menáge a tóis." kxs, 2000
Yes I get to make that one up. This is an old story and I will also
discuss it more at length later. The question now is what are we
going to do about it? Religion and politics are already involved.
> > Richard Morgan, I agree with your comment about a true war onThe political questions surrounding Nanotechnology cannot be
> > poverty. That is why I am suggesting that we consider opening up
> > a new frontier, but not without a new concurrent ethic. There
> > must be massive global redistribution of populations in order to
> > alleviate existing economic and environmental stresses. But
> > Manifest Destiny must be redefined.
understated. But the questions posed by our own history and how we
got to this point must be better understood. The evolution of Humans
on Earth is both by accident and design. Even if it is the result of
coincidence the Church has been an institutionally controlling human
eugenics for thousands of years. Since long before Christ and all
modern religions. It is true of Eastern as well as Western peoples.
It was true here in America before Europeans came here in numbers.
This is a legitimate issue for Evolutionary Science to debate. Why?
Controlling the institution of Mariage, for example is a Biological
as well as Social Issue. But more than that it is an issue of
courtship and mating in an evolutionary sense of the species. It is
also a Socio-Economic question. The legitimacy and control that was
the perogative of the Church for thousands of years over Family
Wealth has now transfered effectively to the modern Nation State.
But the issues behind the practices are not resolved and there is
great political debate on a global scale. Theocracies still exist
and even members of the Transnational Alliances, such as Britain
maintain Theological/Monarchies that are State supported.
There still exists Traditional Economies that are trying to create an
adaptive policy to what is occuring. Mostly they are strictly
traditionally based because of poverty and local levels of
development/exploitation, but there is also a Socio/Cultural
Traditional peoples get treated like the "Star Trek 'Borg treat every
lifeform they encounteron the show: "Resistence is futile! You will
be assimilated." They have only to see how the Transnational
Economies, especially back when they were called the Colonialist
Empire Builders have treated most local people they have come across
in order to become highly suspicious of the declared benificent
motives. But just like in the Cold War mostly they sit back aghast
when they aren't dancing on strings and getting exploited by the much
larger Hegemonic Economic Forces.
The beliefs and practicies of the Transnational Economies are offset
by the Social Monopolistic States with their significantly greater
dependancy of Military/Police Enforcement of Market Stability and the
delicate market/resource dependent Industrial Miltaries that govern
> >No where near the level of engineering required for a mass exodus off
> > Nanobodies can also augment Hemoglobin for oxygenation and
> > maintaining gas equilibrium in the blood and body tissues. A
> > nanoskin similar in concept to what the Navy is using for its
> > submarines could instead provide direct respiration through a
> > living skin instead of needing lungs for that purpose. Also
> > they would be shaped into filter plugs for nose and mouth that
> > could osmotically convert seawater to fresh for drinking,
> > maintaining the lungs against atrophy, acting as lenses for the
> > eyes, providing enhanced underwater vision with infrared and
> > synchronized sonar visual cortex display capability. Ear plugs
> > would also be nano tech and could mimic dolphins and orcas for
> > sonar location and long rang underwater communication ability.
> > These are not genetic modifications to our species but physical
> > augments that provide mechanical adaptation. We would become
> > reverse amphibians needing to come back to the atmosphere in
> > order to bear our young.
> I don't think this is going to be quite as simple as you think,
> living in an water environment has diverse and complex
> requirements. It might require significant biological reengineering
> for significant numbers of people to move back into the ocean.
world. And getting people to go is a lot harder into a less
understood environment with much less chance of emotional security
(Social Contact)or ability to adapt as Marine Migration provides.
ET call home is a lot easier from off shore. Not all that different
though from a qualitative development point of view. Start here and
everything you learn is useful and transferable to Deep Space
Development. This could work on its own though if people can be
happy on this New Frontier. If others see the happiness then many
will follow into this last physical frontier on Earth. This will be
the last time that we get to have a land grab, it is here and the
terraform domed cities in the Antarctic regions.
They'll have the use of reflected Sunlight but that will only
exacerbate Global Warming. Get it? The Seas will rise even faster.
> How would you manage ocean predation on human beings?We are the top of the food chain and you expect the environment to be
friendly? We are the most dangerous predator on this planet bar none
alone, when armed with technology and vastly more so when we operate
in our groups.
I want clear controls and limits on our Hunter/Gatherer Phase of
oceanic development. Another sneak peak, Smart Coral is a definite
place to develope the Geno/Nano interface. Reefs could be
preprogrammed to build themselves into genetically encrypted
Archetectual structures. These would be planted by the pioneering
groups. The cities could then be growing while the idea of a
possible new place grows in the mind of the larger group of
Humanity. Nanotech could probably improve the efficiency of Coral
Reproduction such that a fast type could be created that can do the
work of thousands of years in just a few decades. But these are
Global Projects and must have Global understanding.
> How would you manage the effects of high pressure on the human body?This is one of the easier ones. We don't have to go naked into this
New World. But it is an integrated view of Human hydrostability
based on such existing ones as the Manta model. It gets a lot easier
when you aren't breathing Nitrogen. Actually the O2 source is what
happens to O3 when it gets dissolved in water. The lungs don't have
to be used for direct respiration but they could stay in operation
for CO2 exhaust though that can also be done by urine at these
pressures which can handle carbonation without effervesence. Though
if you were at the surface for a while, or came up too quickly it
could get quite uncomfortable, sort of like flatulence from the wrong
> How would you manage gas transfer O2 and CO2?look above
> How would you manage issues of body heat?look above.
But nano can internally heat too and body heat is generated by
metabolism and that would need cooling as much as warming by the
vastly greater energy output capability of this 'borg mod and frankly
with the now possible improvements in oxygenation and muscular
augmentation an underwater environment might be necessarily cooler.
A 'Borg may heat up and burn out in atmospheric condition if their
power curve ratios give them the ability to expend enourmous energy
if they aren't equipped with better cooling than sweat.
The "Bends" by the way is a consequence of Nitrogen being effervesced
in the blood with rapid ascent because of breathing compressed
atmospheric Nitrogen. Which you no longer need to do anymore than
come to the surface except to change environments.
> How would you manage augmenting human function for reasonableThis is the fun part. I am a primate and have no intention of giving
up such a versatile tool set. But If you look at the current
artificial muscle technology and I will be provding the links if
everybody doesn't beat me to it with the paper I am promising. That
technology woven into a good Nano/armored/wetsuit will give a person
with valve jet flippers the ability to keep up with a slow dolphin on
the long migration and some people might be able to make the swim.
But this isn't without the web and all that it offers and the ocean
is a lot closer and easier to reach than the stars. But I don't see
these as in any way mutually exclusive and expect the Marine
Inhabitants to be an important part of Deep Space Development.
> How would you manage O2 toxicity under high pressure?This is a combination of AI and already existing Biofeedback. It is
easier than you might expect because of the same mechanisms that are
controlling the Nano-Globin Interface. In fact the range of
operation for this aspect of metabolism is greatly extended beyond
the existing limits. That too will be a crucial crossover for the
cyber-naught in deepspace exploration.
> How would you prevent the bends?Been there done that...
> How would you manage issue of bouyancy, spacial perception, andActually I alluded to all this in the original text if you read it
> our ability to function in a lightless environment?
more carefully. But when it comes to the food part I should add that
the worlds poor desperately need the alimentary aspect of this plan.
This is the new breadbasket that allows some of the surface world to
be depopulated again and returned to a more balanced norm. The Sea
is the ultimate source of all life on this planet. Another major
global project could be using Nano for toxic tide control
(Nanoprocessed algae based food supply) and offset Plankton as a food
source for many marine based wildlife herds, schools, and rebuilding
the collapsing food chain that provides the basis for the dwindling
species that humans already depend on. "When life hands you lemons,
learn to make lemonade".
> What would we eat? /\ /\ /\ /\ /\New World habitat with New World rules. I already let the hat out of
> Where would we live?
the bag for Smart Coral built cities but I have more than genetically
programmed buildings to discuss.
> I'm sure these issues are manageable once you can alter matter atI am saying to do exactly that and keep most of our basic human form
> the nano scale, but there are a whole lot of issues to be managed.
> studiing cetaceans and other water dwelling creature would be
> essential for us to make such a dramatic move.
> Why not reengineer ourselves as amphibious?
with an AI augmented semiliving skin that can be removed easier than
a snake's. What's also tantilizing is that it can be put back on to.
>Yes, now you understand. We are entering into a period of Human
> Or maybe we could rip off cetacean DNA for a hybrid human that
> lives in the ocean easily and elegantly?
Divergant Evolution. It is part of the issue underlying why I am
calling for Global recognition of Human Selection as having replaced
Natural Selection. According to a recent Zogby poll half of the
people in the US still think that creationism is a form of science.
and that its "Belief" should be taught along side Natural Selection
as science in the schools.
Hell, Darwin was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right
time in history, with the right tools to see a region with no
industrial, or simple human impact in order to recognize the existing
Natural phenomenon. Australia had been hit 50K years before he got
there and it confused some of his observations and reasons for what
he saw but frankly he got it almost perfect in one try for the
mechanism of evolution, and the Galapagos Islands made that possible.
If you did this today any objective scientist would have to recognize
that it is Human Selection operating by design/denial/neglect that
determines what is occurring on the planet for all lifeforms.
We didn't start it but we have already messed it up too far to go
back. This is the consequence of our success as the species that got
to the top of the food chain. It is due to our environmental impact
as a species. Mostly we are neglectful and ignorant of what we do.
It is a good day when we are just benign more than maligant on a
global balance scale. I don't think we can consider our behavior
sufficiently benign any day for the last few centuries. Maybe more.
Pioneer generations can move in first as 'Borg but subsequent future
generations will be Modern Aquatic Mammals. We aren't that different
from our Ceteacian cousins anyway.
> At first it seems appropriate that once you stop aging and postpone
> death until major trama or gross serendipity, that ZPG practices
> and should be made part of the price of admission. This of coursecomplete
> make the Mormons and the Catholics scream, and could mean a
> end to those religions as we know them.as
> Ultimately the best answer is to migrate ourselves off the planet
> quickly as humanly possible. Or, migrate ourselves off of proteinas
> quickly as possible. Either way, our impact on the planet receedsto
> virtually nothing after only a couple generations.Important recent studies of the fossil record show that damage of the
type we are causing takes more in the vicinity of ten million years
for Earth recovery. If we continue the destructive impact that we
are having it can even risk much greater cataclysmic proportions.
Nanotech is an Elemental technology that if missused can destroy even
the potential for life on this planet. It will be our fault if it
occurs this way.
Also thank you for noticing I am not saying forever but I think that
we don't have the time to worry about more than token gestures on
some of this. The population curve could absorb the numbers of
longlives for at least the first generation without any appreciable
difference in the Maltheusian math. The problem is that by the end
of one generation the damage will have been done, or not.
Marie, we are all in this together already. I don't believe we have
two generations to get it right. This is the make it or break it
time. We are the generation to decide on the next course of
evolution for life on Earth. After we get through with this problem
we need to start worrying on a Transplanetary System Scale or we
won't have anything to worry about at all, we'll be dead.
Arthur, I hope you are reading this. You outlived Lazarus Long and
made it to see our Childhood's End. We are maturing fast though,
hopefully fast enough. It is getting faster everyday at least.
Kenneth X. Sills
PS. Oh, and Jonathan Desp <jonathandesp@...> Here is the
ironic part, I am what many traditionalists fear as Satan yet I am
the one defending their interests on this. You can't ban nanotech.
First of all it is too late and Second it will require a global
consensus that you are unlikly to achieve. I am anyway appealing for
a limited (Voluntary) moratorium for some applied tech and to provide
time for creating a global presentation format. It does not bode
well if this continues in secret. Even though that is due more
to "General Ignorance" than "Major Conspiracy". Like Free Speech:
Can we agree to defend eachother while rationally disagreeing?
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