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Re: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures

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  • David S. Bratman
    ... For the Nth time, I don t hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a B grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien s story. ... up,
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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      At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

      >But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
      >notably Bratman and a few others

      For the Nth time, I don't hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a
      "B" grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien's story.


      >Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed
      up,
      >extending their hands;

      I think that at that point someone started to sing "Stop in the Name of
      Love," a joke previously essayed by Ellie Farrell.


      >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
      >of Elrond

      with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.

      Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
      often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
      long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
      particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
      the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
      comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
      Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?


      >But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
      >time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented
      >puckishly
      >"It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After
      that,
      >son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
      >"It's still round!"

      Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember. That became the theme
      comment of the evening, and even made it into the Drunken Hobbit song at
      closing ceremonies.

      - David Bratman
    • David S. Bratman
      ... There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come out in recent years. I don t find any of them particularly procrustean.
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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        At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

        >Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
        >invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
        >other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious
        >framework.

        There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come
        out in recent years. I don't find any of them particularly procrustean.
        They're actually pretty reasonable and make sense in context, including the
        one Mike tossed. What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
        was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
        fortunately was never published.

        - David Bratman
      • Croft, Janet B
        I thought that was published? The 12 Rings of Leadership by Joe Tye, listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries. Janet Croft What really stretched Tolkien to
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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          I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
          listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.

          Janet Croft

          What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
          was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
          fortunately was never published.

          - David Bratman



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        • David S. Bratman
          Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP (cataloging-in-publication)
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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            Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
            have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
            (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
            Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
            library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
            record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
            entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
            was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
            especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

            - David Bratman


            At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
            >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
            >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
            >
            >Janet Croft
            >
            >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
            >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
            >fortunately was never published.
          • Croft, Janet B
            Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or may not mean it actually IS available. I don t particularly want to waste my money
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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              Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
              may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
              my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
              on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
              from).

              JBC

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
              Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:54 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures


              Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
              have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
              (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
              Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
              library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
              record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
              entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
              was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
              especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

              - David Bratman


              At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
              >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
              >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
              >
              >Janet Croft
              >
              >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
              >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
              >fortunately was never published.



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              <http://www.mythsoc.org>

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            • juliet@firinn.org
              ... I ve seen reviews blending Christopher Lee s Saruman and Count Dooku, and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those of us who ve
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:24:00AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote:
                > >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                > >of Elrond
                >
                > with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.
                >
                > Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
                > often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
                > long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
                > particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
                > the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
                > comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
                > Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?
                >
                I've seen reviews blending Christopher Lee's Saruman and Count Dooku,
                and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those
                of us who've seen The Matrix several times and have auditorily-centered
                memories. If you close your eyes, a few of his turns of speech are exactly
                the same. And if you've heard Hugo Weaving speak in an interview, you'll
                know that when out of character he has a strong British/Australian accent,
                so it's not just that that's how he naturally says those words.

                The review in which Saruman and Count Dooku were frequently confused
                lampooned the fact that Saruman and Gandalf's scene in PJ-FOTR was turned
                into a Star Wars style invitation to come to the power of the Dark Side,
                and I think the reviewer threw in a bit of Harry Potter at some point too.
                Not having seen either Harry Potter movie yet (I know, shame on me! I
                have two kids under 3 and another on the way, so babysitting is at a premium.)
                I can't say for sure. If anyone's interested in actually reading the
                review, I'll hunt it down.

                Julie
                tur
              • David S. Bratman
                Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list books as
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                  Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I
                  presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list
                  books as unavailable unless they know that for sure. Barnes and Noble,
                  which is likewise unreliable as a reference source, says "Not Currently
                  Available", which covers several possibilities, including just
                  out-of-print, but the absence of a cover picture for such a new trade book
                  should make one suspicious. Slightly more trustworthy results can be
                  obtained by searching the web database of the attributed publishers
                  (www.penguinputnam.com, www.prenhall.com) and finding the book not listed
                  there.

                  - David Bratman


                  At 10:00 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                  >Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                  >may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                  >my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                  >on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                  >from).
                • Joan Marie Verba
                  ... As Susan said, that doesn t mean I don t also enjoy satires of a movie. I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time, whether I enjoy
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                    Stolzi@... wrote:

                    > But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie!

                    As Susan said, that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy satires of a movie.
                    I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time,
                    whether I enjoy the movie or not.

                    Joan
                    ******************************************
                    Joan Marie Verba
                    verba001@...
                    http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                  • Stolzi@aol.com
                    In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I have son John s word upon that. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message have
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                      In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
                      dbratman@... writes:


                      > Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember.

                      I have son John's word upon that.

                      Diamond Proudbrook


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Berni Phillips
                      From: Croft, Janet B ... It d be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a book from Amazon. I got a notice from
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                        From: "Croft, Janet B" <jbcroft@...>


                        > Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                        > may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                        > my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                        > on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                        > from).
                        >
                        > JBC

                        It'd be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a
                        book from Amazon. I got a notice from them that it was not coming out after
                        all -- the same week that other people saw the book in stores. I bought the
                        book at Barnes & Noble.

                        (The book, BTW, was the best book of essays on Buffy that I've seen so far.
                        It's _Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in
                        Sunnydale_, part of a series on various aspects of pop culture and
                        philosophy. B&N shelved it in their philosophy section. The other Buffy
                        essay books are too political for my tastes.)

                        Berni
                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of Saruman_, that would
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                          In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          dbratman@... writes:

                          > What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                          > was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                          > fortunately was never published.

                          Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                          Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                          Wendell Wagner


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Berni Phillips
                          From: ... Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break. Berni
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                            From: <WendellWag@...>

                            > Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                            > Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                            "Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break."

                            Berni
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