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Re: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    Another event of the Con was the beginning of The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started, naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion,
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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      Another event of the Con was the beginning of

      The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started,
      naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion, combined this year with the Annual Book
      Toss.

      Edith Crowe mentioned the "Numinosity Meter" by which she always grades the
      books she reads for the award.

      Later, in discussing one of the scholarly books (I think it was) she uttered
      the words "verges on turgid." We all loved this, some suggesting it might
      make a good name for a rock band. Then I suggested that we need a Turgidometer
      as well as a Numinosity Meter (does it measure things as having so many
      "numinos"?)

      Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
      invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
      other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious framework.

      So obviously we have the foundation for our Manual and glossary in place!



      Diamond Proudbrook
    • Stolzi@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time, ... But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the middle. Diamond
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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        In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
        dbratman@... writes:


        > The Ring is round at one end, round again in the middle, and round
        > at the other end

        But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the
        middle.

        Diamond Proudbrook



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David S. Bratman
        ... For the Nth time, I don t hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a B grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien s story. ... up,
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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          At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

          >But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
          >notably Bratman and a few others

          For the Nth time, I don't hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a
          "B" grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien's story.


          >Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed
          up,
          >extending their hands;

          I think that at that point someone started to sing "Stop in the Name of
          Love," a joke previously essayed by Ellie Farrell.


          >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
          >of Elrond

          with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.

          Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
          often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
          long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
          particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
          the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
          comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
          Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?


          >But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
          >time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented
          >puckishly
          >"It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After
          that,
          >son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
          >"It's still round!"

          Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember. That became the theme
          comment of the evening, and even made it into the Drunken Hobbit song at
          closing ceremonies.

          - David Bratman
        • David S. Bratman
          ... There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come out in recent years. I don t find any of them particularly procrustean.
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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            At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

            >Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
            >invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
            >other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious
            >framework.

            There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come
            out in recent years. I don't find any of them particularly procrustean.
            They're actually pretty reasonable and make sense in context, including the
            one Mike tossed. What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
            was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
            fortunately was never published.

            - David Bratman
          • Croft, Janet B
            I thought that was published? The 12 Rings of Leadership by Joe Tye, listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries. Janet Croft What really stretched Tolkien to
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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              I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
              listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.

              Janet Croft

              What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
              was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
              fortunately was never published.

              - David Bratman



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            • David S. Bratman
              Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP (cataloging-in-publication)
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                - David Bratman


                At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                >
                >Janet Croft
                >
                >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                >fortunately was never published.
              • Croft, Janet B
                Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or may not mean it actually IS available. I don t particularly want to waste my money
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                  Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                  may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                  my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                  on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                  from).

                  JBC

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                  Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:54 AM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures


                  Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                  have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                  (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                  Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                  library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                  record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                  entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                  was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                  especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                  - David Bratman


                  At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                  >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                  >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                  >
                  >Janet Croft
                  >
                  >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                  >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                  >fortunately was never published.



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                  <http://www.mythsoc.org>

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                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




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                • juliet@firinn.org
                  ... I ve seen reviews blending Christopher Lee s Saruman and Count Dooku, and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those of us who ve
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                    On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:24:00AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote:
                    > >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                    > >of Elrond
                    >
                    > with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.
                    >
                    > Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
                    > often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
                    > long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
                    > particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
                    > the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
                    > comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
                    > Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?
                    >
                    I've seen reviews blending Christopher Lee's Saruman and Count Dooku,
                    and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those
                    of us who've seen The Matrix several times and have auditorily-centered
                    memories. If you close your eyes, a few of his turns of speech are exactly
                    the same. And if you've heard Hugo Weaving speak in an interview, you'll
                    know that when out of character he has a strong British/Australian accent,
                    so it's not just that that's how he naturally says those words.

                    The review in which Saruman and Count Dooku were frequently confused
                    lampooned the fact that Saruman and Gandalf's scene in PJ-FOTR was turned
                    into a Star Wars style invitation to come to the power of the Dark Side,
                    and I think the reviewer threw in a bit of Harry Potter at some point too.
                    Not having seen either Harry Potter movie yet (I know, shame on me! I
                    have two kids under 3 and another on the way, so babysitting is at a premium.)
                    I can't say for sure. If anyone's interested in actually reading the
                    review, I'll hunt it down.

                    Julie
                    tur
                  • David S. Bratman
                    Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list books as
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                      Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I
                      presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list
                      books as unavailable unless they know that for sure. Barnes and Noble,
                      which is likewise unreliable as a reference source, says "Not Currently
                      Available", which covers several possibilities, including just
                      out-of-print, but the absence of a cover picture for such a new trade book
                      should make one suspicious. Slightly more trustworthy results can be
                      obtained by searching the web database of the attributed publishers
                      (www.penguinputnam.com, www.prenhall.com) and finding the book not listed
                      there.

                      - David Bratman


                      At 10:00 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                      >Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                      >may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                      >my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                      >on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                      >from).
                    • Joan Marie Verba
                      ... As Susan said, that doesn t mean I don t also enjoy satires of a movie. I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time, whether I enjoy
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                        Stolzi@... wrote:

                        > But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie!

                        As Susan said, that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy satires of a movie.
                        I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time,
                        whether I enjoy the movie or not.

                        Joan
                        ******************************************
                        Joan Marie Verba
                        verba001@...
                        http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                      • Stolzi@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I have son John s word upon that. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message have
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                          In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
                          dbratman@... writes:


                          > Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember.

                          I have son John's word upon that.

                          Diamond Proudbrook


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Berni Phillips
                          From: Croft, Janet B ... It d be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a book from Amazon. I got a notice from
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                            From: "Croft, Janet B" <jbcroft@...>


                            > Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                            > may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                            > my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                            > on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                            > from).
                            >
                            > JBC

                            It'd be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a
                            book from Amazon. I got a notice from them that it was not coming out after
                            all -- the same week that other people saw the book in stores. I bought the
                            book at Barnes & Noble.

                            (The book, BTW, was the best book of essays on Buffy that I've seen so far.
                            It's _Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in
                            Sunnydale_, part of a series on various aspects of pop culture and
                            philosophy. B&N shelved it in their philosophy section. The other Buffy
                            essay books are too political for my tastes.)

                            Berni
                          • WendellWag@aol.com
                            In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of Saruman_, that would
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                              In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              dbratman@... writes:

                              > What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                              > was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                              > fortunately was never published.

                              Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                              Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                              Wendell Wagner


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Berni Phillips
                              From: ... Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break. Berni
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                                From: <WendellWag@...>

                                > Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                                > Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                                "Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break."

                                Berni
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