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Re: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:32:31 PM Central Daylight Time, ... It would have much amazed you - Hamlet But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1 7:17 AM
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      In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:32:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
      verba001@... writes:


      > >and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
      > > night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR
      > ("MST3K
      > > meets FOTR")
      >
      > Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!
      >
      >

      "It would have much amazed you" - Hamlet

      But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
      notably Bratman and a few others - were making scathing critical comments on
      script and film-making, PLUS the rest of us were doing our best to throw in
      lines and asides, MST3K style.

      I didn't think I said anything terribly funny myself, but was fond of my
      real-estate-ad when the ruined building on Weathertop showed up - "Needs work."
      Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed up,
      extending their hands; and when Frodo comes across the huge sculptured head
      she said (naturally) "It's Teddy Roosevelt!"

      Hugo Weaver had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
      of Elrond (we had the original sound turned way down).

      We also started a drinking game - well, not really, as there's no booze
      allowed at the Sackville-Baggins center - but whenever Elijah Wood shows viewers
      that Haunted Stare again, we would chorus "Drink!!!" One could get through a
      lot of drinks that way.

      But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
      time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented puckishly
      "It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After that,
      son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
      "It's still round!"



      Diamond Proudbrook



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stolzi@aol.com
      Another event of the Con was the beginning of The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started, naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion,
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1 7:17 AM
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        Another event of the Con was the beginning of

        The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started,
        naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion, combined this year with the Annual Book
        Toss.

        Edith Crowe mentioned the "Numinosity Meter" by which she always grades the
        books she reads for the award.

        Later, in discussing one of the scholarly books (I think it was) she uttered
        the words "verges on turgid." We all loved this, some suggesting it might
        make a good name for a rock band. Then I suggested that we need a Turgidometer
        as well as a Numinosity Meter (does it measure things as having so many
        "numinos"?)

        Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
        invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
        other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious framework.

        So obviously we have the foundation for our Manual and glossary in place!



        Diamond Proudbrook
      • Stolzi@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time, ... But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the middle. Diamond
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 1 8:05 AM
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          In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
          dbratman@... writes:


          > The Ring is round at one end, round again in the middle, and round
          > at the other end

          But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the
          middle.

          Diamond Proudbrook



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David S. Bratman
          ... For the Nth time, I don t hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a B grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien s story. ... up,
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 1 9:24 AM
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            At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

            >But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
            >notably Bratman and a few others

            For the Nth time, I don't hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a
            "B" grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien's story.


            >Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed
            up,
            >extending their hands;

            I think that at that point someone started to sing "Stop in the Name of
            Love," a joke previously essayed by Ellie Farrell.


            >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
            >of Elrond

            with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.

            Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
            often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
            long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
            particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
            the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
            comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
            Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?


            >But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
            >time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented
            >puckishly
            >"It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After
            that,
            >son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
            >"It's still round!"

            Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember. That became the theme
            comment of the evening, and even made it into the Drunken Hobbit song at
            closing ceremonies.

            - David Bratman
          • David S. Bratman
            ... There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come out in recent years. I don t find any of them particularly procrustean.
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 1 9:24 AM
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              At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

              >Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
              >invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
              >other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious
              >framework.

              There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come
              out in recent years. I don't find any of them particularly procrustean.
              They're actually pretty reasonable and make sense in context, including the
              one Mike tossed. What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
              was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
              fortunately was never published.

              - David Bratman
            • Croft, Janet B
              I thought that was published? The 12 Rings of Leadership by Joe Tye, listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries. Janet Croft What really stretched Tolkien to
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1 9:24 AM
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                I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.

                Janet Croft

                What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                fortunately was never published.

                - David Bratman



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              • David S. Bratman
                Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP (cataloging-in-publication)
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1 9:54 AM
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                  Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                  have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                  (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                  Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                  library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                  record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                  entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                  was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                  especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                  - David Bratman


                  At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                  >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                  >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                  >
                  >Janet Croft
                  >
                  >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                  >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                  >fortunately was never published.
                • Croft, Janet B
                  Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or may not mean it actually IS available. I don t particularly want to waste my money
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1 10:00 AM
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                    Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                    may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                    my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                    on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                    from).

                    JBC

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                    Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:54 AM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures


                    Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                    have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                    (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                    Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                    library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                    record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                    entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                    was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                    especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                    - David Bratman


                    At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                    >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                    >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                    >
                    >Janet Croft
                    >
                    >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                    >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                    >fortunately was never published.



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                    374-105951838331032> click here

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                    <http://www.mythsoc.org>

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                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




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                  • juliet@firinn.org
                    ... I ve seen reviews blending Christopher Lee s Saruman and Count Dooku, and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those of us who ve
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 1 10:14 AM
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                      On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:24:00AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote:
                      > >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                      > >of Elrond
                      >
                      > with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.
                      >
                      > Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
                      > often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
                      > long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
                      > particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
                      > the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
                      > comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
                      > Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?
                      >
                      I've seen reviews blending Christopher Lee's Saruman and Count Dooku,
                      and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those
                      of us who've seen The Matrix several times and have auditorily-centered
                      memories. If you close your eyes, a few of his turns of speech are exactly
                      the same. And if you've heard Hugo Weaving speak in an interview, you'll
                      know that when out of character he has a strong British/Australian accent,
                      so it's not just that that's how he naturally says those words.

                      The review in which Saruman and Count Dooku were frequently confused
                      lampooned the fact that Saruman and Gandalf's scene in PJ-FOTR was turned
                      into a Star Wars style invitation to come to the power of the Dark Side,
                      and I think the reviewer threw in a bit of Harry Potter at some point too.
                      Not having seen either Harry Potter movie yet (I know, shame on me! I
                      have two kids under 3 and another on the way, so babysitting is at a premium.)
                      I can't say for sure. If anyone's interested in actually reading the
                      review, I'll hunt it down.

                      Julie
                      tur
                    • David S. Bratman
                      Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list books as
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 1 10:44 AM
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                        Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I
                        presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list
                        books as unavailable unless they know that for sure. Barnes and Noble,
                        which is likewise unreliable as a reference source, says "Not Currently
                        Available", which covers several possibilities, including just
                        out-of-print, but the absence of a cover picture for such a new trade book
                        should make one suspicious. Slightly more trustworthy results can be
                        obtained by searching the web database of the attributed publishers
                        (www.penguinputnam.com, www.prenhall.com) and finding the book not listed
                        there.

                        - David Bratman


                        At 10:00 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                        >Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                        >may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                        >my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                        >on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                        >from).
                      • Joan Marie Verba
                        ... As Susan said, that doesn t mean I don t also enjoy satires of a movie. I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time, whether I enjoy
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 1 1:14 PM
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                          Stolzi@... wrote:

                          > But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie!

                          As Susan said, that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy satires of a movie.
                          I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time,
                          whether I enjoy the movie or not.

                          Joan
                          ******************************************
                          Joan Marie Verba
                          verba001@...
                          http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                        • Stolzi@aol.com
                          In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I have son John s word upon that. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message have
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 1 2:16 PM
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                            In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
                            dbratman@... writes:


                            > Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember.

                            I have son John's word upon that.

                            Diamond Proudbrook


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Berni Phillips
                            From: Croft, Janet B ... It d be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a book from Amazon. I got a notice from
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 1 5:25 PM
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                              From: "Croft, Janet B" <jbcroft@...>


                              > Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                              > may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                              > my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                              > on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                              > from).
                              >
                              > JBC

                              It'd be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a
                              book from Amazon. I got a notice from them that it was not coming out after
                              all -- the same week that other people saw the book in stores. I bought the
                              book at Barnes & Noble.

                              (The book, BTW, was the best book of essays on Buffy that I've seen so far.
                              It's _Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in
                              Sunnydale_, part of a series on various aspects of pop culture and
                              philosophy. B&N shelved it in their philosophy section. The other Buffy
                              essay books are too political for my tastes.)

                              Berni
                            • WendellWag@aol.com
                              In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of Saruman_, that would
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 2 5:16 AM
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                                In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                dbratman@... writes:

                                > What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                                > was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                                > fortunately was never published.

                                Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                                Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                                Wendell Wagner


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Berni Phillips
                                From: ... Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break. Berni
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 2 8:03 PM
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                                  From: <WendellWag@...>

                                  > Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                                  > Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                                  "Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break."

                                  Berni
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