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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    Ray at this URL which I sent yesterday http://www.bridgewater.edu/%7Erschneid/Archive/mythcon_xxxiv.htm has now added a pic of the Masquerade and also a pic of
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 31, 2003
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      Ray at this URL which I sent yesterday

      http://www.bridgewater.edu/%7Erschneid/Archive/mythcon_xxxiv.htm

      has now added a pic of the Masquerade and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
      night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR ("MST3K
      meets FOTR")

      We had another play, ALWAYS STANDING BESIDE YOU by Diana Paxson and I am sure
      there'll be pictures of that, too, eventually available.

      Diamond Proudbrook, who was just out of the picture on the left side, she
      thinks
    • Joan Marie Verba
      ... Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I d been there! Joan ****************************************** Joan Marie Verba verba001@tc.umn.edu
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 31, 2003
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        Stolzi@... wrote:
        >
        >and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
        > night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR ("MST3K
        > meets FOTR")

        Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!

        Joan
        ******************************************
        Joan Marie Verba
        verba001@...
        http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
      • David S. Bratman
        ... ( MST3K ... Let s see if I can recall any of this. (It was late at night, very very late.) Every time Frodo pulls out the Ring and lays it in his hand (a
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 31, 2003
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          At 05:34 PM 7/31/2003 , Joan wrote:
          >Stolzi@... wrote:
          >>
          >>and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
          >> night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR
          ("MST3K
          >> meets FOTR")
          >
          >Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!

          Let's see if I can recall any of this. (It was late at night, very very late.)

          Every time Frodo pulls out the Ring and lays it in his hand (a foolish way
          to hold such a slippery item), we would say, "Yep, it's still round." At
          one point this was elaborated into: "My theory about the Ring, which is
          mine. The Ring is round at one end, round again in the middle, and round
          at the other end." (Monty Python reference.)

          During the Council of Elrond sequence, we would shout out the species of
          the character shown in each shot. "Elf! Dwarf! Man! Wizard! Elf! Wizard!"
          For some unaccountable reason, I found this hysterically funny.

          When Bilbo was about to bug out, we egged him on, and cheered when he
          finally did it.

          I tried to call the chase to the Ford as a horse race, but I'm no good at
          calling horse races.

          Pippin's "Pints? It comes in pints?" line got ribbed a bit; a view of a
          lush field of grass led to a "Kilos? It comes in kilos?" from Tristan.

          The Watcher in the Water was requested not to play with his food.

          Bilbo has a line - I think it's only in the extended version, for I didn't
          recall having heard it before, and I'd only seen the extended edition once
          before - about how the Bagginses have always lived in Bag End. This
          prompted me to reply, "There's always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort
          Farm," which led to several other "Cold Comfort Farm" references, most
          inevitably several repetitions of "There's something nasty in the woodshed."

          Strangely, I don't recall any "Bored of the Rings" lines being used.

          - David Bratman
        • Joan Marie Verba
          ... [Fun stuff snipped.] Thanks! Repeat: Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I d been there! Joan ****************************************** Joan Marie Verba
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 31, 2003
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            "David S. Bratman" wrote:

            > >>and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
            > >> night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR
            > ("MST3K
            > >> meets FOTR")
            > >
            > >Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!
            >
            > Let's see if I can recall any of this. (It was late at night, very very late.)

            [Fun stuff snipped.]

            Thanks!

            Repeat: Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!

            Joan
            ******************************************
            Joan Marie Verba
            verba001@...
            http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
          • WendellWag@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/31/2003 8:58:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... When the balrog first appeared, I said, It s the dreaded ballhog. 7 2 it stands. As it
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 31, 2003
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              In a message dated 7/31/2003 8:58:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              dbratman@... writes:

              > Strangely, I don't recall any "Bored of the Rings" lines being used.
              >
              >

              When the balrog first appeared, I said, "It's the dreaded ballhog. 7' 2" it
              stands. As it walks, it dribbles. Across its chest in cruel runes is written
              the evil word "Villanova".

              Wendell Wagner


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stolzi@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:32:31 PM Central Daylight Time, ... It would have much amazed you - Hamlet But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:32:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                verba001@... writes:


                > >and also a pic of the crowd on Saturday
                > > night in the film lounge, intent on eviscerating Peter Jackson's LOTR
                > ("MST3K
                > > meets FOTR")
                >
                > Ooooh! That sounds fun! Wish I'd been there!
                >
                >

                "It would have much amazed you" - Hamlet

                But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
                notably Bratman and a few others - were making scathing critical comments on
                script and film-making, PLUS the rest of us were doing our best to throw in
                lines and asides, MST3K style.

                I didn't think I said anything terribly funny myself, but was fond of my
                real-estate-ad when the ruined building on Weathertop showed up - "Needs work."
                Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed up,
                extending their hands; and when Frodo comes across the huge sculptured head
                she said (naturally) "It's Teddy Roosevelt!"

                Hugo Weaver had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                of Elrond (we had the original sound turned way down).

                We also started a drinking game - well, not really, as there's no booze
                allowed at the Sackville-Baggins center - but whenever Elijah Wood shows viewers
                that Haunted Stare again, we would chorus "Drink!!!" One could get through a
                lot of drinks that way.

                But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
                time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented puckishly
                "It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After that,
                son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
                "It's still round!"



                Diamond Proudbrook



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stolzi@aol.com
                Another event of the Con was the beginning of The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started, naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion,
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                  Another event of the Con was the beginning of

                  The Mythopoeic Society Manual of Literary Criticism. This started,
                  naturally, during the MFA Awards Discussion, combined this year with the Annual Book
                  Toss.

                  Edith Crowe mentioned the "Numinosity Meter" by which she always grades the
                  books she reads for the award.

                  Later, in discussing one of the scholarly books (I think it was) she uttered
                  the words "verges on turgid." We all loved this, some suggesting it might
                  make a good name for a rock band. Then I suggested that we need a Turgidometer
                  as well as a Numinosity Meter (does it measure things as having so many
                  "numinos"?)

                  Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
                  invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
                  other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious framework.

                  So obviously we have the foundation for our Manual and glossary in place!



                  Diamond Proudbrook
                • Stolzi@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time, ... But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the middle. Diamond
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                    In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    dbratman@... writes:


                    > The Ring is round at one end, round again in the middle, and round
                    > at the other end

                    But I hope you know, David, what is round at both ends and high in the
                    middle.

                    Diamond Proudbrook



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David S. Bratman
                    ... For the Nth time, I don t hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a B grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien s story. ... up,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                      At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

                      >But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie! Those who passionately didn't -
                      >notably Bratman and a few others

                      For the Nth time, I don't hate the movie. I enjoyed the movie; I gave it a
                      "B" grade as a movie. What I hate is what it did to Tolkien's story.


                      >Grace had her moment for "Sieg Heil!" when the figures of the Kings showed
                      up,
                      >extending their hands;

                      I think that at that point someone started to sing "Stop in the Name of
                      Love," a joke previously essayed by Ellie Farrell.


                      >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                      >of Elrond

                      with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.

                      Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
                      often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
                      long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
                      particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
                      the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
                      comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
                      Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?


                      >But it was perhaps Emily Rauscher who highlighted the evening. The second
                      >time we saw the Ring gleaming at us in somebody's palm, she commented
                      >puckishly
                      >"It's still round!" I mean, what else is there to say about it? After
                      that,
                      >son John and others took it up and every time that dinged Ring reappeared -
                      >"It's still round!"

                      Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember. That became the theme
                      comment of the evening, and even made it into the Drunken Hobbit song at
                      closing ceremonies.

                      - David Bratman
                    • David S. Bratman
                      ... There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come out in recent years. I don t find any of them particularly procrustean.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                        At 07:17 AM 8/1/2003 , Stolzi wrote:

                        >Mike's toss of a Devotional Book Based on Tolkien (yes, really!) led me to
                        >invent "Prochristean" and "Prochristeanism," for writers who chop or stretch
                        >other writers in Procrustean fashion to make them fit into a religious
                        >framework.

                        There are actually several devotional books based on Tolkien that have come
                        out in recent years. I don't find any of them particularly procrustean.
                        They're actually pretty reasonable and make sense in context, including the
                        one Mike tossed. What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                        was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                        fortunately was never published.

                        - David Bratman
                      • Croft, Janet B
                        I thought that was published? The 12 Rings of Leadership by Joe Tye, listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries. Janet Croft What really stretched Tolkien to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                          I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                          listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.

                          Janet Croft

                          What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                          was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                          fortunately was never published.

                          - David Bratman



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                        • David S. Bratman
                          Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP (cataloging-in-publication)
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                            Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                            have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                            (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                            Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                            library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                            record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                            entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                            was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                            especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                            - David Bratman


                            At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                            >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                            >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                            >
                            >Janet Croft
                            >
                            >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                            >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                            >fortunately was never published.
                          • Croft, Janet B
                            Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or may not mean it actually IS available. I don t particularly want to waste my money
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                              Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                              may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                              my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                              on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                              from).

                              JBC

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                              Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:54 AM
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [mythsoc] More Mythcon Pictures


                              Bound galleys of the book do exist - I have one - so the libraries might
                              have received and cataloged those. Or, it could be a CIP
                              (cataloging-in-publication) record [though apparently not in this case]).
                              Or, a pre-order record that was never filled. (RLIN, the other main
                              library system, sometimes lists those.) Or just an accidental ghost
                              record. Or more than one of the above. The library databases are not
                              entirely reliable as to whether a book exists, still less as to whether it
                              was published - ghost CIP records of books that were never published,
                              especially from the infamous late Borgo Press, are all over the place.

                              - David Bratman


                              At 09:24 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                              >I thought that was published? "The 12 Rings of Leadership" by Joe Tye,
                              >listed on WorldCat as owned by 3 libraries.
                              >
                              >Janet Croft
                              >
                              >What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                              >was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                              >fortunately was never published.



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                              374-105951838331032> click here

                              <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=259538.3625325.4914071.1261774/D=egroupmai
                              l/S=:HM/A=1695348/rand=866230551>

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                              <http://www.mythsoc.org>

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




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                            • juliet@firinn.org
                              ... I ve seen reviews blending Christopher Lee s Saruman and Count Dooku, and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those of us who ve
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:24:00AM -0700, David S. Bratman wrote:
                                > >Hugo Weaving had his lines from THE MATRIX supplied to him during the Council
                                > >of Elrond
                                >
                                > with "Mr. Baggins" instead of "Mr. Anderson," of course.
                                >
                                > Blending his Elrond with his Agent Smith is a joke that's been made fairly
                                > often, and I'm faintly puzzled as to why. I didn't see "The Matrix" until
                                > long after I saw "Fellowship," but now that I have, I don't see how they're
                                > particularly similar in looks or style, as far as two characters played by
                                > the same, fairly distinctive, actor go. I mean, I haven't seen any jokes
                                > comparing Saruman to previous Christopher Lee characters, for instance.
                                > Perhaps it's because these are the only roles people have seen Weaving in?
                                >
                                I've seen reviews blending Christopher Lee's Saruman and Count Dooku,
                                and I think the Agent Smith/Elrond similarity is most obvious to those
                                of us who've seen The Matrix several times and have auditorily-centered
                                memories. If you close your eyes, a few of his turns of speech are exactly
                                the same. And if you've heard Hugo Weaving speak in an interview, you'll
                                know that when out of character he has a strong British/Australian accent,
                                so it's not just that that's how he naturally says those words.

                                The review in which Saruman and Count Dooku were frequently confused
                                lampooned the fact that Saruman and Gandalf's scene in PJ-FOTR was turned
                                into a Star Wars style invitation to come to the power of the Dark Side,
                                and I think the reviewer threw in a bit of Harry Potter at some point too.
                                Not having seen either Harry Potter movie yet (I know, shame on me! I
                                have two kids under 3 and another on the way, so babysitting is at a premium.)
                                I can't say for sure. If anyone's interested in actually reading the
                                review, I'll hunt it down.

                                Julie
                                tur
                              • David S. Bratman
                                Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list books as
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                  Amazon is, of course, completely unreliable as a reference source. I
                                  presume you know that, and perhaps also that Amazon prefers not to list
                                  books as unavailable unless they know that for sure. Barnes and Noble,
                                  which is likewise unreliable as a reference source, says "Not Currently
                                  Available", which covers several possibilities, including just
                                  out-of-print, but the absence of a cover picture for such a new trade book
                                  should make one suspicious. Slightly more trustworthy results can be
                                  obtained by searching the web database of the attributed publishers
                                  (www.penguinputnam.com, www.prenhall.com) and finding the book not listed
                                  there.

                                  - David Bratman


                                  At 10:00 AM 8/1/2003 , Janet wrote:
                                  >Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                                  >may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                                  >my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                                  >on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                                  >from).
                                • Joan Marie Verba
                                  ... As Susan said, that doesn t mean I don t also enjoy satires of a movie. I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time, whether I enjoy
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                    Stolzi@... wrote:

                                    > But Joan, I thought you =liked= the movie!

                                    As Susan said, that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy satires of a movie.
                                    I do running commentary on movies I watch--at home--all the time,
                                    whether I enjoy the movie or not.

                                    Joan
                                    ******************************************
                                    Joan Marie Verba
                                    verba001@...
                                    http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                                  • Stolzi@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I have son John s word upon that. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message have
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                      In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:24:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                      dbratman@... writes:


                                      > Was it Emily who started that? I couldn't remember.

                                      I have son John's word upon that.

                                      Diamond Proudbrook


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Berni Phillips
                                      From: Croft, Janet B ... It d be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a book from Amazon. I got a notice from
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                        From: "Croft, Janet B" <jbcroft@...>


                                        > Well, Amazon lists it as available for purchase in hardcover. That may or
                                        > may not mean it actually IS available. I don't particularly want to waste
                                        > my money finding out (although I would take a look at it if I could get it
                                        > on ILL, but only one of the libraries listed is someone we could borrow
                                        > from).
                                        >
                                        > JBC

                                        It'd be nice if there were some consistency in this. I had pre-ordered a
                                        book from Amazon. I got a notice from them that it was not coming out after
                                        all -- the same week that other people saw the book in stores. I bought the
                                        book at Barnes & Noble.

                                        (The book, BTW, was the best book of essays on Buffy that I've seen so far.
                                        It's _Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in
                                        Sunnydale_, part of a series on various aspects of pop culture and
                                        philosophy. B&N shelved it in their philosophy section. The other Buffy
                                        essay books are too political for my tastes.)

                                        Berni
                                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of Saruman_, that would
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                                          In a message dated 8/1/2003 12:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                          dbratman@... writes:

                                          > What really stretched Tolkien to make him fit a framework
                                          > was the abortive attempt at a "Leadership secrets of LOTR" book, which
                                          > fortunately was never published.

                                          Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                                          Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                                          Wendell Wagner


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Berni Phillips
                                          From: ... Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break. Berni
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 2, 2003
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                                            From: <WendellWag@...>

                                            > Now, _The Leadership Secrets of Sauron_ or _The Leadership Secrets of
                                            > Saruman_, that would make a plausible management book.

                                            "Lesson 1: Never give a minion an even break."

                                            Berni
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