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proto-fantasy--magic or not? Enright & Konigburg

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  • David Lenander
    Actually, Pauline, I m almost sure there was another fantasy by Enright, related to the Tatsinda book. Which is not really a picture book, if I remember
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 30, 2003
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      Actually, Pauline, I'm almost sure there was another fantasy by Enright, related
      to the Tatsinda book. Which is not really a picture book, if I remember
      rightly, though it is liberally illustrated and not very long. But I think it
      had a lot more text than picture books normally do, and it's 80 pages long.
      Maybe I'm wrong about that, it's been many years (30+??) since I looked at it.
      But I think there was another book, related to _Tatsinda, called _Zeee_, which
      is only 46 pp., according to a library record. Also, do you recall that
      "Tatsinda" is a story told by one of the children in the _Saturdays_ series at
      one point. There's also _The Hundred Dresses_, which is almost a fantasy, maybe
      shades into the sort of book you're thinking of in talking about Konigsburg.
      The title of that one is exactly as you've listed it, except you left out the
      first name/word: _Jennifer, Hecate, Macbeth . . . ._ This is a wonderful book,
      rather in the tradition of Eager's _Magic or Not_ books, and the E. Nesbit books
      that inspired Eager (were they some of the Bastable books? _The Wouldbegoods_
      perhaps?) Similar to Konigsburg's book is _The Egypt Game_ by Zilpha Keatly
      Snyder, who of course has written a lot of books in this peculiar
      sub-genre--_The Witches of Worm_ is another. She's also written fantasies like
      _Black & Blue Magic_, and science fantasy like the Green Sky Trilogy, _Below the
      Root_ and sequels, or the excellent _Eyes in the Fishbowl_. I'm having trouble
      remembering details of some of Konigsburg's other books, I think she may have
      written some actuial fantasy or SF, maybe _George (not george)_ or whatever that
      one was. Maybe just a "psychological" exploration of split or multiple
      personality. A lot of these sorts of books are psychological books in which the
      :"reality" of the fantasy is partly dependant on the observer or the narrator
      or.... Janet Taylor Lisle has done several books on this order, perhaps best
      known is _Afternoon of the Elves_, or consider Phillippa Pearce's _A Dog So
      Small_, or even some of William Mayne's books, or at least aspects of Garner's
      books, even _The Owl Service_, though I won't deny out and out fantasy content
      there. Or the semi-classic _Secret Garden_ by Frances H. Burnett.

      Both Enright and Konigsburg get a lot of readers because they received the
      Newbery Medal, Enright for _Thimble Summer_, and ELK for _From the Mixed-up
      Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler_ (I might have that name a little confused).
      Many teachers in grade school recommend or require that children read from the
      list of winners. Also, paperback publishers keep most of these in print and
      promote the Newbery. I suppose Enright is much less read than Konigsburg today,
      but _Thimble Summer_ is pretty short, so it probably gets readers for that
      reason alone. Though I don't recall it as one of Enright's better books.

      Another writer I always pair with Enright is Eleanor Estes, who is best
      remembered for the Moffat family books, (_Rufus M_ and others), received the
      Newbery for _Ginger Pye_, and also wrote an outstanding fantasy that might be
      good for 10-year olds: _The Witch Family_, which is interesting as an early
      example of metafiction for children, as well as being a fun story about a witch
      family, particulary the grumpy, would-be evil matriarch.

      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:02:40 -0000
      > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...>
      > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
      >
      > I do believe this is the first time I've heard from someone besides
      > myself who's read Elizabeth Enright! Enright also wrote one fantasy,
      > Tatsinda, but it's for younger kids than 10 -- a picture book.
      >
      > This puts me in mind of another author who didn't write fantasy but
      > might be of interest. E.L. Konigsberg's book about a girl whose
      > school friend scams her into thinking she can teach her witchcraft
      > was wickedly funny. The title was something like "Hecate, Macbeth,
      > William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth." I may have forgotten some of
      > the names in the title.
      >
      > Pauline J. Alama
      >

      mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > There are 2 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
      > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...>
      > 2. Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
      > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...>
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:56:30 -0000
      > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...>
      > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
      >
      > Let me enthusiastically back up the recommendation of Lloyd
      > Alexander's Prydain Chronicles for a 10-year-old who likes fantasy. I
      > first read them when I was not-quite-10, and I became instantly
      > obsessed with them, and hooked on fantasy. They're a sort of coming-
      > of-age story for a naive young man in search of his identity, with
      > lots of varied characters, strange adventures, painful lessons to be
      > learned, and of course, a grand struggle against the forces of evil.
      > And beautiful language, which made a great impression on me at the
      > time, and which I still appreciate. Start with The Book of Three.
      >
      > Alexander has written lots of other stuff, so there's more to explore
      > if the 10-year-old takes to Prydain. He's also wonderful for
      > answering fans' letters graciously.
      >
      > Pauline J. Alama
      >
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Apgar Triano"
      > <lizziewriter@e...> wrote:
      > > He's obviously reading well above grade level, but he is still only
      > ten
      > > years old. Any suggestions? >>
      > >
      > > Lloyd Alexander's Taran books. Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising
      > books.
      > > Richard Adam's _Watership Down_. William Horwood's (sp) Duncton
      > Wood
      > > books. For scifi almost anything by Andre Norton (_Moon of Three
      > Rings_
      > > and _The Zero Stone_ (not sure about the The) are nice places to
      > start.)
      > >
      > > I have seen other titles by Lloyd Alexander but am not familiar
      > with them.
      > >
      > > If he is already reading LOTR he might like to read some of the
      > related
      > > nonfiction (biographies, etc.) and then pick some titles from the
      > > narrative.
      > >
      > > Many libraries have reading lists also.
      > >
      > > Lizzie Triano
      > > lizziewriter@e...
      > > amor vincit omnia
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:02:40 -0000
      > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...>
      > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
      >
      > I do believe this is the first time I've heard from someone besides
      > myself who's read Elizabeth Enright! Enright also wrote one fantasy,
      > Tatsinda, but it's for younger kids than 10 -- a picture book.
      >
      > This puts me in mind of another author who didn't write fantasy but
      > might be of interest. E.L. Konigsberg's book about a girl whose
      > school friend scams her into thinking she can teach her witchcraft
      > was wickedly funny. The title was something like "Hecate, Macbeth,
      > William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth." I may have forgotten some of
      > the names in the title.
      >
      > Pauline J. Alama
      >
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "dianejoy@e..." <dianejoy@e...> wrote:
      > > Madeline L'Engle and Lloyd Alexander come to mind. And he's at the
      > perfect
      > > age to read *The Saturdays* and *The Four Story Mistake* by
      > Elizabeth
      > > Enright. They're mainstream, but awfully good, and funny. I
      > enjoyed them
      > > very much as a child. ---djb
      > >
      > > Original Message:
      > > -----------------
      > > From: jbigelow@p...
      > > Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:20:15 GMT
      > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [mythsoc] fantasy for 10 year old?
      > >
      > >
      > > Friends,
      > >
      > > A coworker of mine is looking for fantasy for her ten-year-old
      > son. He's
      > > already read LOTR *3* times, as well as Narnia and some of the
      > Redwall
      > > books. He's a little daunted by the size of the individual Harry
      > Potter
      > > books. I thought he might like Crown Duel/Court Duel, or some of
      > Diana
      > > Wynne Jones or Tamora Pierce's The Circle Opens.
      > >
      > > He's obviously reading well above grade level, but he is still only
      > ten
      > > years old. Any suggestions?
      > >
      > > Jane
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------------------
      > > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
      > > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
      > > http://mail2web.com/ .
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      --

      David Lenander, Library Manager I

      University of Minnesota Bio-Medical Library Access Services

      Diehl Hall / 505 Essex SE, / Mpls., MN 55455

      Phone: work: (612)626-3375 fax: (612)626-2454 home: (651)292-8887

      e-mail: d-lena@... web-page: http://umn.edu/~d-lena/OnceUponATime.html
    • Pauline J. Alama
      Yes, David Lenander is right in saying Konigsburg s _Jennifer, Hecate, Macbeth, William McKinley, & Me_ is sort of on the borderline of the fantasy field. In a
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 1, 2003
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        Yes, David Lenander is right in saying Konigsburg's _Jennifer,
        Hecate, Macbeth, William McKinley, & Me_ is sort of on the borderline
        of the fantasy field. In a way I blew the ending by saying that it
        isn't really fantasy, because Elizabeth, the narrator, believes
        Jennifer really is a witch for most of the story.

        _Tatsinda_ is told by the younger sister in the family in _And Then
        There Were Five_, but the story isn't spelled out in full except in
        the separately published version. I recently bought _Tatsinda_ for my
        7-year-old niece, and she was enchanted with it. I think a 10-year-
        old might feel patronized if offered it as a reading selection,
        however.

        Another suggestion for the 10-year-old: Rudyard Kipling's _Jungle
        Book_ (not at all to be confused with the Disney version!).

        Pauline J. Alama

        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Lenander <d-lena@u...> wrote:
        > Actually, Pauline, I'm almost sure there was another fantasy by
        Enright, related
        > to the Tatsinda book. Which is not really a picture book, if I
        remember
        > rightly, though it is liberally illustrated and not very long. But
        I think it
        > had a lot more text than picture books normally do, and it's 80
        pages long.
        > Maybe I'm wrong about that, it's been many years (30+??) since I
        looked at it.
        > But I think there was another book, related to _Tatsinda, called
        _Zeee_, which
        > is only 46 pp., according to a library record. Also, do you recall
        that
        > "Tatsinda" is a story told by one of the children in the
        _Saturdays_ series at
        > one point. There's also _The Hundred Dresses_, which is almost a
        fantasy, maybe
        > shades into the sort of book you're thinking of in talking about
        Konigsburg.
        > The title of that one is exactly as you've listed it, except you
        left out the
        > first name/word: _Jennifer, Hecate, Macbeth . . . ._ This is a
        wonderful book,
        > rather in the tradition of Eager's _Magic or Not_ books, and the E.
        Nesbit books
        > that inspired Eager (were they some of the Bastable books? _The
        Wouldbegoods_
        > perhaps?) Similar to Konigsburg's book is _The Egypt Game_ by
        Zilpha Keatly
        > Snyder, who of course has written a lot of books in this peculiar
        > sub-genre--_The Witches of Worm_ is another. She's also written
        fantasies like
        > _Black & Blue Magic_, and science fantasy like the Green Sky
        Trilogy, _Below the
        > Root_ and sequels, or the excellent _Eyes in the Fishbowl_. I'm
        having trouble
        > remembering details of some of Konigsburg's other books, I think
        she may have
        > written some actuial fantasy or SF, maybe _George (not george)_ or
        whatever that
        > one was. Maybe just a "psychological" exploration of split or
        multiple
        > personality. A lot of these sorts of books are psychological books
        in which the
        > :"reality" of the fantasy is partly dependant on the observer or
        the narrator
        > or.... Janet Taylor Lisle has done several books on this order,
        perhaps best
        > known is _Afternoon of the Elves_, or consider Phillippa Pearce's
        _A Dog So
        > Small_, or even some of William Mayne's books, or at least aspects
        of Garner's
        > books, even _The Owl Service_, though I won't deny out and out
        fantasy content
        > there. Or the semi-classic _Secret Garden_ by Frances H. Burnett.
        >
        > Both Enright and Konigsburg get a lot of readers because they
        received the
        > Newbery Medal, Enright for _Thimble Summer_, and ELK for _From the
        Mixed-up
        > Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler_ (I might have that name a
        little confused).
        > Many teachers in grade school recommend or require that children
        read from the
        > list of winners. Also, paperback publishers keep most of these in
        print and
        > promote the Newbery. I suppose Enright is much less read than
        Konigsburg today,
        > but _Thimble Summer_ is pretty short, so it probably gets readers
        for that
        > reason alone. Though I don't recall it as one of Enright's better
        books.
        >
        > Another writer I always pair with Enright is Eleanor Estes, who is
        best
        > remembered for the Moffat family books, (_Rufus M_ and others),
        received the
        > Newbery for _Ginger Pye_, and also wrote an outstanding fantasy
        that might be
        > good for 10-year olds: _The Witch Family_, which is interesting as
        an early
        > example of metafiction for children, as well as being a fun story
        about a witch
        > family, particulary the grumpy, would-be evil matriarch.
        >
        > >
        > > Message: 2
        > > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:02:40 -0000
        > > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@e...>
        > > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
        > >
        > > I do believe this is the first time I've heard from someone
        besides
        > > myself who's read Elizabeth Enright! Enright also wrote one
        fantasy,
        > > Tatsinda, but it's for younger kids than 10 -- a picture book.
        > >
        > > This puts me in mind of another author who didn't write fantasy
        but
        > > might be of interest. E.L. Konigsberg's book about a girl whose
        > > school friend scams her into thinking she can teach her witchcraft
        > > was wickedly funny. The title was something like "Hecate, Macbeth,
        > > William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth." I may have forgotten some of
        > > the names in the title.
        > >
        > > Pauline J. Alama
        > >
        >
        > mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
        ------
        > >
        > > There are 2 messages in this issue.
        > >
        > > Topics in this digest:
        > >
        > > 1. Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
        > > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@e...>
        > > 2. Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
        > > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@e...>
        > >
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        > > Message: 1
        > > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:56:30 -0000
        > > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@e...>
        > > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
        > >
        > > Let me enthusiastically back up the recommendation of Lloyd
        > > Alexander's Prydain Chronicles for a 10-year-old who likes
        fantasy. I
        > > first read them when I was not-quite-10, and I became instantly
        > > obsessed with them, and hooked on fantasy. They're a sort of
        coming-
        > > of-age story for a naive young man in search of his identity, with
        > > lots of varied characters, strange adventures, painful lessons to
        be
        > > learned, and of course, a grand struggle against the forces of
        evil.
        > > And beautiful language, which made a great impression on me at the
        > > time, and which I still appreciate. Start with The Book of Three.
        > >
        > > Alexander has written lots of other stuff, so there's more to
        explore
        > > if the 10-year-old takes to Prydain. He's also wonderful for
        > > answering fans' letters graciously.
        > >
        > > Pauline J. Alama
        > >
        > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Apgar Triano"
        > > <lizziewriter@e...> wrote:
        > > > He's obviously reading well above grade level, but he is still
        only
        > > ten
        > > > years old. Any suggestions? >>
        > > >
        > > > Lloyd Alexander's Taran books. Susan Cooper's The Dark is
        Rising
        > > books.
        > > > Richard Adam's _Watership Down_. William Horwood's (sp) Duncton
        > > Wood
        > > > books. For scifi almost anything by Andre Norton (_Moon of
        Three
        > > Rings_
        > > > and _The Zero Stone_ (not sure about the The) are nice places to
        > > start.)
        > > >
        > > > I have seen other titles by Lloyd Alexander but am not familiar
        > > with them.
        > > >
        > > > If he is already reading LOTR he might like to read some of the
        > > related
        > > > nonfiction (biographies, etc.) and then pick some titles from
        the
        > > > narrative.
        > > >
        > > > Many libraries have reading lists also.
        > > >
        > > > Lizzie Triano
        > > > lizziewriter@e...
        > > > amor vincit omnia
        > >
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        > > Message: 2
        > > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:02:40 -0000
        > > From: "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@e...>
        > > Subject: Re: fantasy for 10 year old?
        > >
        > > I do believe this is the first time I've heard from someone
        besides
        > > myself who's read Elizabeth Enright! Enright also wrote one
        fantasy,
        > > Tatsinda, but it's for younger kids than 10 -- a picture book.
        > >
        > > This puts me in mind of another author who didn't write fantasy
        but
        > > might be of interest. E.L. Konigsberg's book about a girl whose
        > > school friend scams her into thinking she can teach her witchcraft
        > > was wickedly funny. The title was something like "Hecate, Macbeth,
        > > William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth." I may have forgotten some of
        > > the names in the title.
        > >
        > > Pauline J. Alama
        > >
        > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "dianejoy@e..." <dianejoy@e...>
        wrote:
        > > > Madeline L'Engle and Lloyd Alexander come to mind. And he's at
        the
        > > perfect
        > > > age to read *The Saturdays* and *The Four Story Mistake* by
        > > Elizabeth
        > > > Enright. They're mainstream, but awfully good, and funny. I
        > > enjoyed them
        > > > very much as a child. ---djb
        > > >
        > > > Original Message:
        > > > -----------------
        > > > From: jbigelow@p...
        > > > Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:20:15 GMT
        > > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [mythsoc] fantasy for 10 year old?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Friends,
        > > >
        > > > A coworker of mine is looking for fantasy for her ten-year-old
        > > son. He's
        > > > already read LOTR *3* times, as well as Narnia and some of the
        > > Redwall
        > > > books. He's a little daunted by the size of the individual
        Harry
        > > Potter
        > > > books. I thought he might like Crown Duel/Court Duel, or some of
        > > Diana
        > > > Wynne Jones or Tamora Pierce's The Circle Opens.
        > > >
        > > > He's obviously reading well above grade level, but he is still
        only
        > > ten
        > > > years old. Any suggestions?
        > > >
        > > > Jane
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------------------
        > > > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
        > > > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
        ----
        > > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
        > > > http://mail2web.com/ .
        > >
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        > --
        >
        > David Lenander, Library Manager I
        >
        > University of Minnesota Bio-Medical Library Access Services
        >
        > Diehl Hall / 505 Essex SE, / Mpls., MN 55455
        >
        > Phone: work: (612)626-3375 fax: (612)626-2454 home: (651)292-8887
        >
        > e-mail: d-lena@u... web-page: http://umn.edu/~d-
        lena/OnceUponATime.html
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        Another suggestion for the 10-year-old: Rudyard Kipling s _Jungle Book_ (not at all to be confused with the Disney version!). ... All of them, yes! Down to
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 1, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Another suggestion for the 10-year-old: Rudyard Kipling's _Jungle
          Book_ (not at all to be confused with the Disney version!).
          >>

          All of them, yes! Down to "In the Rukh" which I only found in recent
          years. I so loved those books, with their verses between, for many years
          and still do.

          Trying them on my 7-yo though is no good yet. I can read him HP or other
          modern things, but Kipling's language is too much. My own fault, for not
          bringing him up on more Milne and Potter....

          Lizzie Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
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