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Re: Re: [mythsoc] language what? ....

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  • alexeik@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/28/3 10:18:30 AM, Lizzie wrote: What about chesed ? What does that word mean? Wendell Wagner I am sorry, but it s been a long
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 28, 2003
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      In a message dated 6/28/3 10:18:30 AM, Lizzie wrote:

      <<> What about "chesed"?

      What does that word mean?

      Wendell Wagner >>

      I am sorry, but it's been a long time, and I can't recall if it was
      "merciful" or "blessed" or what. >>

      _Chesed_ is usually translated as "mercy" in liturgical and Biblical
      contexts, but its most basic meaning is "kindness". It can refer to Divine mercy, but
      in other contexts it can indicate human affection, or even beauty (an
      appearance that is uplifting and reassuring). The verb-root Ch-S-D from which it comes
      means "to be kind", but it has also developed the secondary meaning "to be
      pious" (piety is expressed by kindness), so that one of its familiar derived
      forms is _chasid_ "pious one".
      Alexei
    • SusanPal@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:00:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... Is that where hassidim comes from? Susan [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 28, 2003
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        In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:00:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        alexeik@... writes:

        > so that one of its familiar derived
        > forms is _chasid_ "pious one".
        >

        Is that where "hassidim" comes from?

        Susan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jamcconney@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:09:05 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Yes--but the original discussion was about Hebrew Anne [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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          In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:09:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
          dbratman@... writes:

          > Uh, isn't Greek the language in which the New Testament was written?
          >
          Yes--but the original discussion was about Hebrew
          Anne


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David S Bratman
          ... Yes, but Steve was explicitly drawing a comparison with the NT s use of Greek. That s a legitimate thing to do in a discussion of how a language does
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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            At 02:01 PM 6/29/2003 -0400, Anne wrote:
            >In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:09:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
            >dbratman@... writes:
            >
            > > Uh, isn't Greek the language in which the New Testament was written?
            > >
            >Yes--but the original discussion was about Hebrew

            Yes, but Steve was explicitly drawing a comparison with the NT's use of
            Greek. That's a legitimate thing to do in a discussion of how a language
            does something: compare it to how some other language does it. When you
            wrote that he was "mixing languages," it read to me as if either you didn't
            know that the NT is in Greek, or that you thought he didn't know that. I
            might have been less confused if you'd phrased it differently. Sorry.

            - David Bratman
          • Stolzi@aol.com
            Languages are fascinating. In Russian, verbs have gender: on zabyl he forgot but ona zabyla she forgot. In Japanese, practically nothing has gender, but
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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              Languages are fascinating.

              In Russian, verbs have gender: on zabyl "he forgot" but ona zabyla "she
              forgot."

              In Japanese, practically nothing has gender, but =adjectives= have a past
              tense. It redded, it hotted.


              Diamond Proudbrook
            • WendellWag@aol.com
              Look, there s no way any of us are going to convince each other on this issue. The evidence for and against the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is extremely varied and
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                Look, there's no way any of us are going to convince each other on this
                issue. The evidence for and against the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is extremely varied
                and complex. Here's a page of links to other pages of discussion of the
                hypothesis:

                <A HREF="http://www.usingenglish.com/speaking-out/linguistic-whorfare.html">http://www.usingenglish.com/speaking-out/linguistic-whorfare.html</A>

                I really hate this sort of endless discussion of matters where people aren't
                convinced by other people's argument on the subject, so I have nothing further
                to say on the whole matter.

                Wendell Wagner


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jamcconney@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/29/2003 1:17:47 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Sorry--I think I missed a message somewhere in the middle.... Anne (who has indeed struggled
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                  In a message dated 6/29/2003 1:17:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  dbratman@... writes:

                  > Yes, but Steve was explicitly drawing a comparison with the NT's use of
                  > Greek.

                  Sorry--I think I missed a message somewhere in the middle....

                  Anne
                  (who has indeed struggled through, if not all, then much of the New Testament
                  in Greek.)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stolzi@aol.com
                  Risking Wendell s wrath, I will comment that one of our main writers (CSLewis) seemed to find the need to use a foreign word to convey a concept important to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                    Risking Wendell's wrath, I will comment that one of our main writers
                    (CSLewis) seemed to find the need to use a foreign word to convey a concept important
                    to him - I refer of course to Sehnsucht.


                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • WendellWag@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/29/2003 9:43:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stolzi@aol.com ... Don t think of it as my wrath, think of it as my sensitivity to frustration.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                      In a message dated 6/29/2003 9:43:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stolzi@...
                      writes:

                      > Risking Wendell's wrath

                      Don't think of it as my wrath, think of it as my sensitivity to frustration.
                      I've been in enough Internet discussions that I've acquired a sense for when
                      a discussion has passed beyond the point that it can be settled by the
                      presentation of enough facts. I have a low threshold for frustration and I drop out
                      of a discussion when it becomes the sort of thing that can't be settled fairly
                      quickly. Looking over the arguments for the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, I
                      realized that it's one of those sorts of discussions.

                      Wendell Wagner


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      I have a low threshold for frustration and I drop out of a discussion when it becomes the sort of thing that can t be settled fairly quickly. Looking over the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                        I have a low threshold for frustration and I drop out
                        of a discussion when it becomes the sort of thing that can't be settled
                        fairly
                        quickly. Looking over the arguments for the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, I
                        realized that it's one of those sorts of discussions. >>

                        Aw, let's have a drink and not consider it an argument. How about an
                        exchange of information, with people permitted to retain their opinions?

                        Heck I didn't even know Worf had a second calling as a linguist.

                        Lizzie Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        I don t see much in the way of disagreement going on here, only confusion of positions. It is undeniably true, as Alexei notes (and well he should know!) that
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                          I don't see much in the way of disagreement going on here, only
                          confusion of positions. It is undeniably true, as Alexei notes (and
                          well he should know!) that the study of multiple languages can lead one
                          to previously unknown or unappreciated perspectives on both language
                          and the world, just as does the study of a foreign literature or
                          mythology. It is also undeniably true, as Wendell notes, that the mere
                          fact that one language has a single word or other similarly concise
                          name for some concept or phenomenon does _not_ mean that another
                          language that does not have that concise terminology cannot express or
                          convey the same concept or phenomenon. It is also undeniably true that
                          the fact that a language lacks, say, some case or tense or aspect, does
                          _not_ mean that speakers of the language have no awareness of the
                          concepts or relationships expressed by such. English, for example, has,
                          formally, no future tense (instead expressing the concept of future
                          time by periphrasis or even just contextually); does that mean that we
                          speakers of English have no concept of future time?
                        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          does that mean that we speakers of English have no concept of future time? Absolutely. Hence we have credit cards so we can buy it all NOW. And the mfrs
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                            does that mean that we
                            speakers of English have no concept of future time? >>

                            Absolutely. Hence we have credit cards so we can buy it all NOW. And the
                            mfrs also, because if you save until you can afford, the item is no longer
                            available. Definitely American Anglophones have no concept of the future.

                            Or the past. Because once we buy something, we need the new one right
                            away, immediately forgetting the one we have bought.

                            Lizzie Triano
                            lizziewriter@...
                            amor vincit omnia
                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                            P.S. There is also exhibited the historically and grammatically inaccurate (and socio-politically most unfortunate) confusion of grammatical gender with
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 29, 2003
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                              P.S. There is also exhibited the historically and grammatically
                              inaccurate (and socio-politically most unfortunate) confusion of
                              grammatical gender with biological sex. The former strictly refers
                              _only_ to classifications of patterns of formal agreement among certain
                              grammatical categories; the labels "masculine, feminine, and neuter"
                              for these classifications is in fact ultimately arbitrary, and might
                              just as well have been called "Moe, Larry, and Curly". Insisting that
                              the fact that some form is historically one gender means that it
                              excludes the other biological sexes makes as much sense as saying that
                              the Romans thought that all eagles (_aquila_, fem.) and money
                              (_pecunia_, fem.) were female, or that all German children (_das Kind_,
                              neut.) lack external genitalia.
                            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                              ... From: Stolzi@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:05:49 EDT To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] language what? .... Languages are fascinating.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 30, 2003
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                                Original Message:
                                -----------------
                                From: Stolzi@...
                                Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:05:49 EDT
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] language what? ....


                                Languages are fascinating.

                                In Russian, verbs have gender: on zabyl "he forgot" but ona zabyla "she
                                forgot."

                                In Japanese, practically nothing has gender, but =adjectives= have a past
                                tense. It redded, it hotted.


                                Actually, there's a certain logic in that, though linguistically, I
                                couldn't possibly explain it. ---djb



                                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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                              • alexeik@aol.com
                                In a message dated 6/30/3 1:43:32 AM, Diamond Proudbrook wrote:
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 30, 2003
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                                  In a message dated 6/30/3 1:43:32 AM, Diamond Proudbrook wrote:

                                  <<Risking Wendell's wrath, I will comment that one of our main writers
                                  (CSLewis) seemed to find the need to use a foreign word to convey a concept
                                  important
                                  to him - I refer of course to Sehnsucht.
                                  >>

                                  Indeed, that's one of the main motivations languages have for borrowing words
                                  from each other (as, of course, they do constantly).
                                  Alexei
                                • alexeik@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 6/29/3 8:07:04 PM, Mary wrote:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 30, 2003
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                                    In a message dated 6/29/3 8:07:04 PM, Mary wrote:

                                    <<In Russian, verbs have gender: on zabyl "he forgot" but ona zabyla "she
                                    forgot."
                                    >>

                                    In this case, however, it's because _zabyl_ and _zabyl_ aren't really verbs
                                    (although derived from verb-stems) but participles, and thus grammatically
                                    adjectives, which automatically have gender in Slavic languages. Originally they
                                    would have been joined to a substantive by the verb "to be", but this has
                                    dropped out in Russian, leaving such sentences essentially verbless (with the verb
                                    "to be" understood). In other Slavic languages -- like, say, Czech -- the verb
                                    "to be" is still explicitly there -- _ja jsem zapomnel_ "I forgot"
                                    [literally, "I am having-forgotten"], masculine; _ja jsem zapomnela_ "I forgot",
                                    feminine.
                                    On the whole "Sapir-Whorf" issue, Anna Wierzbicka's books are excellent
                                    sources for people trying to understand how languages are fundamentally different
                                    and yet how translation between them is possible.
                                    Alexei
                                  • alexeik@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 6/30/3 6:03:28 PM, I wrote: I meant _zabyl_ and _zabyla_, of
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 30, 2003
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                                      In a message dated 6/30/3 6:03:28 PM, I wrote:

                                      <<In this case, however, it's because _zabyl_ and _zabyl_ aren't really
                                      verbs>>

                                      I meant _zabyl_ and _zabyla_, of course.
                                      Alexei
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