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Re: copyright

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  • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
    ... Gilraen, Aragorn s mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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      In a message dated 12/21/99 7:20:54 PM, ERATRIANO@... writes:

      ><< But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
      >
      > in fortune telling in LotR. >>
      >Gosh it's been so long... can you cite me some examples... refresh my
      >memory...

      Gilraen, Aragorn's mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees
      the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
      of Angmar. Aragorn fortells his meeting with Eomer on the Pelennor fields,
      etc.

      - Stephen
    • Steve
      ... Tolkien s Catholiicism would have distinguished between the various -mancies and prophecy.
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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        On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, you wrote:
        > From: Stephen123@...
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 12/21/99 7:20:54 PM, ERATRIANO@... writes:
        >
        > ><< But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
        > >
        > > in fortune telling in LotR. >>
        > >Gosh it's been so long... can you cite me some examples... refresh my
        > >memory...
        >
        > Gilraen, Aragorn's mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees
        > the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
        > of Angmar. Aragorn fortells his meeting with Eomer on the Pelennor fields,
        > etc

        Tolkien's Catholiicism would have distinguished between the various -mancies
        and prophecy.
      • Wayne G. Hammond
        ... A copyright lawyer (which I m not) could explain the nuances. However, it does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket approval, or
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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          Stephen wrote:

          >What's different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that
          >Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that
          >venue? Are they each approved?

          A copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances. However, it
          does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket
          approval, or separate approval, for the pictures. Fan art (and fan fiction)
          is generally (though not always) given a free pass, as copyright holders
          can't be bothered to police it, and if they did it would be
          counterproductive, turning off at least some fans. But when fan art becomes
          commercial, for example when it's reproduced as prints and sold for profit,
          it's a different matter. Actually my point about a commercial print called
          "Cart in Ithilien" wasn't so much that it was inspired by Tolkien -- no
          problem there -- as that it contained in its title a name copyrighted or
          trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises, who are known to be litigious.

          Wayne Hammond
        • David Lenander
          Although I wouldn t say you d win, I m not at all sure that Tolkien Enterprises would win if they sued you for copyright infringement for using the word
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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            Although I wouldn't say you'd win, I'm not at all sure that Tolkien Enterprises
            would win if they sued you for copyright infringement for using the word
            "Ithilien." I would guess that employing one word would not exceed fair use,
            even in a for-profit context. However, the larger question might be about the
            picturing, or "interpreting" Tolkien's work. Unless you're doing satire, you
            might need permission for that. Either way (and you might even win a suit over
            the ownership of your work, arguing that it was an original response, partly
            inspired by Tolkien, rather than a "derivative" work) you probably wouldn't have
            the stamina and money to fight it out if they came after you. And there are at
            least arguably good reasons for them to sue over any use, for profit or not, and
            Mythlore (up till now, when art will no longer be employed, I understand) has so
            far escaped being threatened, but fan art is NOT necessarily "fair use" or
            otherwise allowed under the law, whatever its purpose, character, audience, or
            lack of impact on Tolkien sales.

            Not that I'm a lawyer or anything. And I think that Wayne is wrong about "A
            copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances"--or at least the
            implied modifier "reliably" for explain would be wrong. Different copyright
            lawyers would give you different explanations, and there are many areas that the
            courts have yet to resolve. Read the copyright law for yourself, and then
            decide whether it's worth it to hire several lawyers to explain it and possibly
            defend you. You might want to do what another artist inspired by C.S. Lewis did
            with her musical compositions: retitle them. You can still rely on your
            small-scale contacts to understand and appreciate your artistic inspiration. Or
            try illustrating some materials out of copyright, like Shakespeare's Tempest or
            Baum's Glinda of Oz or MacDonald/Macdonald's Lilith or ....

            Can you copyright a made-up language? You cannot copyright an idea, copyright
            covers the expression of ideas. You can get a patent on ideas. However, I
            think there is case law that supports copyright for computer languages--which
            proves nothing, there's also some case law against it, and I don't know if it's
            relevant to this sort of made-up language. You can register a trademark, but I
            doubt that Ithilien is trademarked. Even if it was, I'm pretty sure that
            nothing could stop me from using it in a review of The Lord of the Rings, though
            I have been wondering if there's been a challenge to the whole enterprise of
            writing critical articles as "derivative" of the fictional originals. I don't
            think such an attempt would succeed. Can your artistic creation be considered a
            review of sorts? I think not, but there's lots of room for discussion. You
            probably don't want to conduct that discussion with Tolkien Enterprises in
            court, though.

            "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote:

            > From: "Wayne G. Hammond" <Wayne.G.Hammond@...>
            >
            > Stephen wrote:
            >
            > >What's different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that
            > >Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that
            > >venue? Are they each approved?
            >
            > A copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances. However, it
            > does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket
            > approval, or separate approval, for the pictures. Fan art (and fan fiction)
            > is generally (though not always) given a free pass, as copyright holders
            > can't be bothered to police it, and if they did it would be
            > counterproductive, turning off at least some fans. But when fan art becomes
            > commercial, for example when it's reproduced as prints and sold for profit,
            > it's a different matter. Actually my point about a commercial print called
            > "Cart in Ithilien" wasn't so much that it was inspired by Tolkien -- no
            > problem there -- as that it contained in its title a name copyrighted or
            > trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises, who are known to be litigious.
            >
            > Wayne Hammond
            >
            > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
            Thanks David and Wayne. I think I m going to use different titles and stay out of the whole situation. - Stephen
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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              Thanks David and Wayne. I think I'm going to use different titles and stay
              out of the whole situation.

              - Stephen
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