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  • ERATRIANO@xxx.xxx
    Sheesh. yeah, Good Luck! But if there weren t all those laws, every no-talent ripoff artist would be running away with Frodo and Gandalf. There s pros and
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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      Sheesh. yeah, Good Luck! But if there weren't all those laws, every
      no-talent ripoff artist would be running away with Frodo and Gandalf.
      There's pros and cons to everything aren't there...

      Lizzie
    • Steve Schaper
      ... I looked at their website. Tarot cards? They have permission make tarot cards? The very Catholic Professor Tolkien must be looking down from Niggle s
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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        At 1:16 PM -0500 12/21/99, ERATRIANO@... wrote:
        >From: ERATRIANO@...
        >
        >Sheesh. yeah, Good Luck! But if there weren't all those laws, every
        >no-talent ripoff artist would be running away with Frodo and Gandalf.
        >There's pros and cons to everything aren't there...
        >
        >Lizzie


        I looked at their website. Tarot cards? They have permission make
        tarot cards? The very Catholic Professor Tolkien must be looking down
        from Niggle's Parish in extreme dismay and anger.

        ======================
        Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
        sschaper@...
        ======================
      • Steve
        ... It is perilous to study too closely the arts of the Enemy.
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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          On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, you wrote:
          > From: ERATRIANO@...
          >
          > In a message dated 12/21/1999 1:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > sschaper@... writes:
          >
          > << I looked at their website. Tarot cards? They have permission make
          > tarot cards? The very Catholic Professor Tolkien must be looking down
          > from Niggle's Parish in extreme dismay and anger. >>
          > Ooooh no, that's awful... but I can believe, oh definitely, what a market!
          > To cross writers, Screwtape is laughing his head off along about now...
          >
          > Lizzie, who does Tarot but draws lines too
          >

          It is perilous to study too closely the arts of the Enemy.
        • ERATRIANO@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 12/21/1999 1:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, sschaper@uswest.net writes:
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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            In a message dated 12/21/1999 1:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            sschaper@... writes:

            << I looked at their website. Tarot cards? They have permission make
            tarot cards? The very Catholic Professor Tolkien must be looking down
            from Niggle's Parish in extreme dismay and anger. >>
            Ooooh no, that's awful... but I can believe, oh definitely, what a market!
            To cross writers, Screwtape is laughing his head off along about now...

            Lizzie, who does Tarot but draws lines too
          • Berni Phillips
            ... Yes, there was quite an angry letter in Mythprint about this issue. The use of tarot cards falls into fortune telling, which is proscribed by the Catholic
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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              ERATRIANO@... wrote:

              > sschaper@... writes:
              >
              > << I looked at their website. Tarot cards? They have permission make
              > tarot cards? The very Catholic Professor Tolkien must be looking down
              > from Niggle's Parish in extreme dismay and anger. >>

              > Ooooh no, that's awful... but I can believe, oh definitely, what a market!
              > To cross writers, Screwtape is laughing his head off along about now...
              >
              > Lizzie, who does Tarot but draws lines too

              Yes, there was quite an angry letter in Mythprint about this issue. The
              use of tarot cards falls into fortune telling, which is proscribed by
              the Catholic Church. On the other hand, I'd expect those cards are no
              more used for fortune telling than the fancy plates that the Franklin
              Mint sells are used for eating off of. The cards are a vehicle for the
              art.

              Berni
              Quick, close your eyes:
            • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
              The Tarot cards surprise me too. Tolkien Enterprises has always had some odd ideas. But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage in
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                The Tarot cards surprise me too. Tolkien Enterprises has always had some odd
                ideas. But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
                in fortune telling in LotR.

                - Stephen
              • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
                What s different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that venue?
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                  What's different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that
                  Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that
                  venue? Are they each approved?

                  - Stephen
                • ERATRIANO@xxx.xxx
                  In a message dated 12/21/1999 6:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, bernip@ix.netcom.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                    In a message dated 12/21/1999 6:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    bernip@... writes:

                    << On the other hand, I'd expect those cards are no
                    more used for fortune telling than the fancy plates that the Franklin
                    Mint sells are used for eating off of. The cards are a vehicle for the
                    art. >>
                    Oh great, now I have to go look at the link... People use a lot of different
                    cards now for "meditation" and so on... Who knows what they would be used
                    for... Is it okay to meditate on fantasy as if it were reality, I mean okay
                    as far as Tolkien church orthodoxy is concerned... but not okay for
                    fortunetelling? I am completely out of my element but this is intriguing...
                    are we getting off topic here or is this very on topic? I am a newbie to
                    this list but not this genre.

                    Lizzie

                    Raven Jerusalem

                    Barukh atah Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha-Olam
                    (Blessed are You O Lord our God, Ruler of the Cosmos)

                    God speaks Hebrew, Dragons speak Welsh;
                    I better go back to school!
                  • ERATRIANO@xxx.xxx
                    In a message dated 12/21/1999 6:33:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stephen123@aol.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                      In a message dated 12/21/1999 6:33:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      Stephen123@... writes:

                      << But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
                      in fortune telling in LotR. >>
                      Gosh it's been so long... can you cite me some examples... refresh my
                      memory...

                      Lizzie
                    • ERATRIANO@xxx.xxx
                      Tell me about Mythprint... Lizzie
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                        Tell me about Mythprint...

                        Lizzie
                      • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
                        ... Gilraen, Aragorn s mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                          In a message dated 12/21/99 7:20:54 PM, ERATRIANO@... writes:

                          ><< But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
                          >
                          > in fortune telling in LotR. >>
                          >Gosh it's been so long... can you cite me some examples... refresh my
                          >memory...

                          Gilraen, Aragorn's mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees
                          the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
                          of Angmar. Aragorn fortells his meeting with Eomer on the Pelennor fields,
                          etc.

                          - Stephen
                        • Steve
                          ... Tolkien s Catholiicism would have distinguished between the various -mancies and prophecy.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 21, 1999
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                            On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, you wrote:
                            > From: Stephen123@...
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 12/21/99 7:20:54 PM, ERATRIANO@... writes:
                            >
                            > ><< But keep in mind that several obviously noble, good characters engage
                            > >
                            > > in fortune telling in LotR. >>
                            > >Gosh it's been so long... can you cite me some examples... refresh my
                            > >memory...
                            >
                            > Gilraen, Aragorn's mom, does some fortelling in Appendix A. Galadriel sees
                            > the future (and other things) in a mirror/pool. Glorfindel fortells the fate
                            > of Angmar. Aragorn fortells his meeting with Eomer on the Pelennor fields,
                            > etc

                            Tolkien's Catholiicism would have distinguished between the various -mancies
                            and prophecy.
                          • Wayne G. Hammond
                            ... A copyright lawyer (which I m not) could explain the nuances. However, it does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket approval, or
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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                              Stephen wrote:

                              >What's different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that
                              >Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that
                              >venue? Are they each approved?

                              A copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances. However, it
                              does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket
                              approval, or separate approval, for the pictures. Fan art (and fan fiction)
                              is generally (though not always) given a free pass, as copyright holders
                              can't be bothered to police it, and if they did it would be
                              counterproductive, turning off at least some fans. But when fan art becomes
                              commercial, for example when it's reproduced as prints and sold for profit,
                              it's a different matter. Actually my point about a commercial print called
                              "Cart in Ithilien" wasn't so much that it was inspired by Tolkien -- no
                              problem there -- as that it contained in its title a name copyrighted or
                              trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises, who are known to be litigious.

                              Wayne Hammond
                            • David Lenander
                              Although I wouldn t say you d win, I m not at all sure that Tolkien Enterprises would win if they sued you for copyright infringement for using the word
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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                                Although I wouldn't say you'd win, I'm not at all sure that Tolkien Enterprises
                                would win if they sued you for copyright infringement for using the word
                                "Ithilien." I would guess that employing one word would not exceed fair use,
                                even in a for-profit context. However, the larger question might be about the
                                picturing, or "interpreting" Tolkien's work. Unless you're doing satire, you
                                might need permission for that. Either way (and you might even win a suit over
                                the ownership of your work, arguing that it was an original response, partly
                                inspired by Tolkien, rather than a "derivative" work) you probably wouldn't have
                                the stamina and money to fight it out if they came after you. And there are at
                                least arguably good reasons for them to sue over any use, for profit or not, and
                                Mythlore (up till now, when art will no longer be employed, I understand) has so
                                far escaped being threatened, but fan art is NOT necessarily "fair use" or
                                otherwise allowed under the law, whatever its purpose, character, audience, or
                                lack of impact on Tolkien sales.

                                Not that I'm a lawyer or anything. And I think that Wayne is wrong about "A
                                copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances"--or at least the
                                implied modifier "reliably" for explain would be wrong. Different copyright
                                lawyers would give you different explanations, and there are many areas that the
                                courts have yet to resolve. Read the copyright law for yourself, and then
                                decide whether it's worth it to hire several lawyers to explain it and possibly
                                defend you. You might want to do what another artist inspired by C.S. Lewis did
                                with her musical compositions: retitle them. You can still rely on your
                                small-scale contacts to understand and appreciate your artistic inspiration. Or
                                try illustrating some materials out of copyright, like Shakespeare's Tempest or
                                Baum's Glinda of Oz or MacDonald/Macdonald's Lilith or ....

                                Can you copyright a made-up language? You cannot copyright an idea, copyright
                                covers the expression of ideas. You can get a patent on ideas. However, I
                                think there is case law that supports copyright for computer languages--which
                                proves nothing, there's also some case law against it, and I don't know if it's
                                relevant to this sort of made-up language. You can register a trademark, but I
                                doubt that Ithilien is trademarked. Even if it was, I'm pretty sure that
                                nothing could stop me from using it in a review of The Lord of the Rings, though
                                I have been wondering if there's been a challenge to the whole enterprise of
                                writing critical articles as "derivative" of the fictional originals. I don't
                                think such an attempt would succeed. Can your artistic creation be considered a
                                review of sorts? I think not, but there's lots of room for discussion. You
                                probably don't want to conduct that discussion with Tolkien Enterprises in
                                court, though.

                                "Wayne G. Hammond" wrote:

                                > From: "Wayne G. Hammond" <Wayne.G.Hammond@...>
                                >
                                > Stephen wrote:
                                >
                                > >What's different about the pictures that appear in Mythlore? Is it that
                                > >Mythlore is not-for-profit? Is there some sort of blanket approval for that
                                > >venue? Are they each approved?
                                >
                                > A copyright lawyer (which I'm not) could explain the nuances. However, it
                                > does matter that _Mythlore_ is not for profit. There is no blanket
                                > approval, or separate approval, for the pictures. Fan art (and fan fiction)
                                > is generally (though not always) given a free pass, as copyright holders
                                > can't be bothered to police it, and if they did it would be
                                > counterproductive, turning off at least some fans. But when fan art becomes
                                > commercial, for example when it's reproduced as prints and sold for profit,
                                > it's a different matter. Actually my point about a commercial print called
                                > "Cart in Ithilien" wasn't so much that it was inspired by Tolkien -- no
                                > problem there -- as that it contained in its title a name copyrighted or
                                > trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises, who are known to be litigious.
                                >
                                > Wayne Hammond
                                >
                                > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                              • Stephen123@xxx.xxx
                                Thanks David and Wayne. I think I m going to use different titles and stay out of the whole situation. - Stephen
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 22, 1999
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                                  Thanks David and Wayne. I think I'm going to use different titles and stay
                                  out of the whole situation.

                                  - Stephen
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