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Re: [mythsoc] OT: Meritocracy (was Re: We're not all wild about Harry (or, of...

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    In a message dated 5/17/2003 6:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time, ... We wouldn t even exist as a Literary Society, let alone give awards every year, if we didn t
    Message 1 of 6 , May 18, 2003
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      In a message dated 5/17/2003 6:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
      nodens@... writes:


      >
      > But Carl, this sounds like a ringing endorsement of Peter Jackson's films
      > at
      > best, or a justification for the Fox Channel at worst.

      We wouldn't even exist as a Literary Society, let alone give awards every
      year, if we didn't have a collective belief in SOME form of excellence. Or?


      Diamond Proudbrook



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stolzi@aol.com
      I m not sure we haven t talked quite enough about neoconservative (a big bugaboo word these days) meritocracy - but isn t it precisely the petite
      Message 2 of 6 , May 18, 2003
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        I'm not sure we haven't talked quite enough about "neoconservative" (a big
        bugaboo word these days) "meritocracy" - but isn't it precisely the "petite
        bourgeoise" Hermione who becomes totally indignant at the plight of the house
        elves?

        If I were a Marxist critic, I'd zero in on the way they are described as
        being happy with their treatment.

        Diamond Proudbrook
      • David S. Bratman
        ... There s nothing in questioning the basis of meritocracy ratings that implies that one doesn t believe in excellence. Carl s definition of the basis of
        Message 3 of 6 , May 18, 2003
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          At 06:55 AM 5/18/2003 , Stolzi wrote:
          >In a message dated 5/17/2003 6:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
          >nodens@... writes:
          >>
          >> But Carl, this sounds like a ringing endorsement of Peter Jackson's films
          >> at best, or a justification for the Fox Channel at worst.
          >
          >We wouldn't even exist as a Literary Society, let alone give awards every
          >year, if we didn't have a collective belief in SOME form of excellence. Or?

          There's nothing in questioning the basis of meritocracy ratings that
          implies that one doesn't believe in excellence. Carl's definition of the
          basis of meritocracy was success in the marketplace. Doug pointed out the
          deficiencies of that definition as a way of establishing a meritocracy of
          literary quality. (It's also hardly the basis of meritocracy in the realm
          where that term is most often used, the ranking of students, who are
          usually judged by grades and test scores, often by parentage or athletic
          ability, and sometimes even by the amount of money their parents have, but
          rarely by their own market saleability.)

          Anyway, the point of the argument I alluded to is to bring definitions of
          meritocracy out into the open and to point out their deficiencies in
          measuring merit by other standards, NOT to claim that there is no such
          thing as merit.

          - David Bratman
        • jamcconney@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/18/2003 8:55:36 AM Central Daylight Time, Stolzi@aol.com ... Not nearly as bad, however, as the Dufflepuds in _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_
          Message 4 of 6 , May 18, 2003
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            In a message dated 5/18/2003 8:55:36 AM Central Daylight Time, Stolzi@...
            writes:

            > If I were a Marxist critic, I'd zero in on the way they are described as
            > being happy with their treatment.
            >

            Not nearly as bad, however, as the Dufflepuds in _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_
            who are presented as being UNhappy with their treatment.

            I've always been pretty unhappy with Lewis about the Dufflepuds anyway. Their
            one-leggedness is not only said to be a punishment but also a cause for great
            mirth among the 'normal' characters.

            Anne


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ernest S. Tomlinson
            ... ...One wants to distinguish between the conservatism of Burke, or even the conservatism of Barry Goldwater, and the conservatism of your average
            Message 5 of 6 , May 19, 2003
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              On Sun, 18 May 2003 09:55:08 EDT, Stolzi@... said:

              > I'm not sure we haven't talked quite enough about "neoconservative" (a
              > big bugaboo word these days)...

              ...One wants to distinguish between the conservatism of Burke, or even
              the conservatism of Barry Goldwater, and the conservatism of your average
              Pentecostalist attorney general.

              Ernest.
              --
              Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
              "_Attack of the Clones_ was the most scandalous cinematic waste I have
              ever seen, and remember, I've seen _The Phantom Menace_." (Ernest
              Tomlinson, shamelessly stealing from Roger Ebert's review of another
              movie)
            • Ernest S. Tomlinson
              ... But then, that Society would be pallid indeed if we all agreed on the measure of excellence. Adopt merely numerical measures, as seems to be the fashion
              Message 6 of 6 , May 20, 2003
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                On Sun, 18 May 2003 09:55:07 EDT, Stolzi@... said:
                > In a message dated 5/17/2003 6:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
                > nodens@... writes:
                >
                >
                > >
                > > But Carl, this sounds like a ringing endorsement of Peter Jackson's films
                > > at
                > > best, or a justification for the Fox Channel at worst.
                >
                > We wouldn't even exist as a Literary Society, let alone give awards every
                > year, if we didn't have a collective belief in SOME form of excellence.

                But then, that Society would be pallid indeed if we all agreed on the
                measure of excellence. Adopt merely numerical measures, as seems to be
                the fashion these days, and J. K. Rowling is the greatest writer who ever
                lived and "General Hospital" the best TV show in the history of the boob
                tube.

                Ernest.
                --
                Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                "_Attack of the Clones_ was the most scandalous cinematic waste I have
                ever seen, and remember, I've seen _The Phantom Menace_." (Ernest
                Tomlinson, shamelessly stealing from Roger Ebert's review of another
                movie)
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