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Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about something doesn t make them funny. But that
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
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      They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because
      someone has a genuine passion about something doesn't make them funny. >>

      But that is a common thing these days, Wendell, at least I've seen it
      often. I don't read _The Onion_ and computer troubles have prevented me
      following recent discussions, but your comment was too poignant to let
      pass. Is it part of a habit of self-aggrandizement (sp) perhaps? A
      remnant of that elbow nudge over the nerdy kid? What is so threatening
      about admiring other people for their gifts and interesting points?

      Lizzie Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
    • WendellWag@aol.com
      Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours ago and it never came back to me. I m going to assume that the Yahoo groups
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
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        Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours
        ago and it never came back to me. I'm going to assume that the Yahoo groups
        server just ate it, so I'm resending it now. My apologies if it reached
        other people but not me. You know, this has happened a lot of times. Have
        we ever considered using something other than yahoogroups.com for this
        mailing list?

        ******************************************************************************

        ********************

        The problem with a lot of _The Onion_'s humor is that it affects this
        world-weary, I'm-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it's very
        finely observed humor, but it's clear that they find anybody with an
        enthusiastic interest in anything to be faintly ridiculous. Take a look at a
        selection of their articles. They frequently have some type nailed
        precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about
        something doesn't make them funny.

        Wendell Wagner
      • dianejoy@earthlink.net
        ... From: SusanPal@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists In a message dated
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
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          Original Message:
          -----------------
          From: SusanPal@...
          Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


          In a message dated 4/17/2003 8:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          Aelfwine@... writes:


          > _I_ thought _The Onion_ piece was _hilarious_!
          >

          << Me too! Even though I'm linguistically impaired and know precisely one
          Elvish phrase: "Mae govannen." >>

          I loved it! Subtle humor is so rare these days. Even though I can't begin
          to pronounce the Elvish for "A star shines on our meeting." I forget how
          to proceed after the first word! But I love it when Liv Tyler pronounces
          it.

          I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
          would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc? (Or
          know if they're doing one? They've got zillions of movie tie-ins; why not
          that one?) ---djb



          Susan


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          The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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        • Ernest S. Tomlinson
          On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, dianejoy@earthlink.net ... Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I d probably dislike
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
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            On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, "dianejoy@..."
            <dianejoy@...> said:

            > I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
            > would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc?

            Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I'd
            probably dislike two-thirds of the tracks.

            Others more knowledgeable than myself will have to instruct me here: how
            close to correct were the pronunciations of Cate Blanchett, Liv Tyler,
            and the other "Elvish" actors? I suppose it's a bit whacked to be
            speaking of the "correct" pronunciation of a purely synthetic language,
            but Tolkien did leave some rules, and according to them, Blanchett et al.
            committed at least a few whoppers that I can remember, e.g. "EAR-endil"
            instead of "E-a-rendil." I'm pretty sure "SMEA-gol" is wrong as well.

            For my part, the less I have to endure of Tyler dentalizing her
            consonants, the better.

            Ernest.
            --
            Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
            "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
            illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
          • Ernest S. Tomlinson
            ... Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there being very
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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              On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

              > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
              > offers a
              > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
              > and
              > loved).

              Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
              different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
              being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
              and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?

              Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
              refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
              concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
              generation, that is.

              Ernest.
              --
              Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
              "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
              illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
            • Ernest S. Tomlinson
              ... But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It s not just
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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                On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:52:04 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

                > To each his own. But I can't agree with any automatic dismissal of
                > fandom, because most of the "fanboys" (or girls) I know are genuinely complex and
                > multifaceted people, often *more* multifacted than non-fans. In my
                > experience, what sets fans apart from the rest of the population isn't
                > monomania, but the ability to become intensely passionate about anything
                > at all in the midst of a superficial consumer culture.

                But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a
                product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It's
                not just Star Trek the TV show, say; it's toys, games, T-shirts, all of
                the gimcrackery that ill-paid labourers in China or Indonesia can churn
                out for Western collectors. The same for Star Wars, or the Simpsons (and
                a better example of an original work of art now completely suborned to
                strictly commercial concerns you'll never find), or model unicorns. Not
                all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                them.

                > When she decided to give up drinking, she had an Elvish blessing
                > inscribed on a silver ring which she wears as a promise to herself; she liked the
                > Elvish blessing so much that she just had it tattooed across her back,
                > stretching from shoulder to shoulder.

                I can appreciate that, especially since no power on Earth or heaven has
                been able to get _me_ to stop drinking. I have no answer to that.

                Ernest.
                --
                Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
              • David S Bratman
                ... The fannish spirit ? That s like saying that the urge to go outdoors and enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it s an endemic
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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                  At 05:53 PM 4/21/2003 -0800, Ernest wrote:

                  >Not
                  >all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                  >that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                  >and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                  >interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                  >memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                  >them.

                  "The fannish spirit"? That's like saying that the urge to go outdoors and
                  enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it's an
                  endemic form of Tolkien fandom in the FSU), or that the urge to bash
                  smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                  of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.* I'm an American,
                  a Tolkienist, and a fan, and I don't believe in any of those things.

                  In each case, a trait of some people at some times has been mistaken as
                  characteristic of the whole.

                  I also wonder if you've mistaken the collecting urge for the consumerist
                  urge. The trait of the consumerist is to buy what's new, and then ignore
                  or discard it in favor of newer, shinier things. The trait of the
                  collector is to keep, not to buy; and indeed the dedicated collector may
                  ignore what's new in favor of what's old. The danger of over-manic
                  collecting was depicted in "The Enchanted Duplicator" back in 1954 as a
                  distraction from the fannish spirit: so it's been around fandom a lot
                  longer than commercial consumerism has, but it was deemed alien to the
                  fannish spirit even then.

                  - David Bratman
                • David S Bratman
                  ... Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read I m referring not so much to Iraq as to France. - David Bratman
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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                    At 09:12 PM 4/21/2003 -0700, I wrote:

                    >or that the urge to bash
                    >smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                    >of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.*

                    Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read "I'm
                    referring not so much to Iraq as to France."

                    - David Bratman
                  • William Calhoun
                    I think it s a great idea. It isn t that ST is such a perfect example of justice, it s that the stories and symbols have become a common language. The students
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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                      I think it's a great idea. It isn't that ST is such a perfect example of
                      justice, it's that the stories and symbols have become a common language.
                      The students will be sharing a common language. Plus, working from stories
                      is a lot more interesting than working from a dry text. Some of the most
                      interesting popular science books out now are based on this use of ST.
                      "Physics in Star Trek", "Biology in Star Trek", etc. Probably made such
                      subjects a lot more interesting to people than the way it was done in my
                      high school.

                      If Perry Mason were as widely known and watched as Star Trek, a course using
                      that show would be perfectly appropriate.

                      Bright Blessings,

                      William

                      From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                      To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                      > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                      >
                      > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                      > > offers a
                      > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                      > > and
                      > > loved).
                      >
                      > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                      > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                      > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                      > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                      >
                      > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                      > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                      > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                      > generation, that is.
                      >
                      > Ernest.
                      > --
                      > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                      > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                      > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      >
                    • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
                      Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved, beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace . I have multiple copies
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
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                        Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved,
                        beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace <g>. I have
                        multiple copies of the Hobbit and LotR, hard back and paper, some
                        because they are beautiful, some because they have some new bits. Does
                        that make me a terrible?

                        And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                        Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                        We won't go into my t-shirt collection, which includes a lot of travel
                        t's as well as Mythcon t's, other con t's, and tv & movie t's. And the
                        other books, dolls, space ships (some tv/film, some made up). Oh, and I
                        collect Unicorns (which is hard because unicorns aren't "In" anymore).

                        By the way, if you want to make the LotR costumes from the movies, you
                        become an obsessive collector. The dolls were made from laser scanning
                        the actors wearing their costumes and are very accurate. The books are
                        also useful for additional information including original sketches. And
                        making the costumes is hardly a "Passive" activity.

                        I've enjoyed it all. It is part of the fun. The top of the bookcases
                        (which are packed all over the house) have the displays. The insides of
                        the bookcases are filled with books. With pictures of family (gotta put
                        them someplace) and a few smaller collectables in front.

                        You can rant all you want and not collect it. That is your right. But we
                        are fans too. And if you discount the collectors who are having fun, you
                        are also cutting out a lot of people with a lot of varied interests who
                        can quote you Tolkien better than you can and are much more involved in
                        all the levels of life the universe and everything.

                        I'm facinated by all the various types of fans out there and even
                        getting a glimpses of what they see in their activity. I feel it just
                        enriches my life.

                        You life is all the poorer for your limited view of fandom in all its
                        facets.

                        Mythically yours,
                        Lisa
                      • Matthew Winslow
                        ... Aren t you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is the title of the class. If we exchange Shakespeare for Star Trek we have
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
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                          Ernest S. Tomlinson [thiophene@...] wrote:
                          > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                          > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                          > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                          > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                          >
                          > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                          > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                          > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                          > generation, that is.

                          Aren't you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is
                          the title of the class. If we exchange 'Shakespeare' for 'Star Trek' we have
                          what sounds like a senior-level seminar in English, where the operative word
                          is usually the 'in'. That is, they're not looking at ethics and justice
                          with Star Trek or the Bard as the springboard for a disucssion of a universal
                          concept, but rather, looking at the how one particular author or 'text'
                          examines a particular issue. If such is the case, then you almost /have to/
                          assume E&J to be universal concepts, or at least have some broad meaning.

                          And having done the undergrad and grad routine in English, I'm guessing I'm
                          more in the right. (Besides, if I weren't of such an opinion, you wouldn't be
                          reading this email <g>.)

                          So, what we're down to is a battle of competing interpretations of a very
                          vague phrase. However, to come down on one side and start making broad sweeps
                          without /any/ textual evidence seems to me, well, whacked </tongue firmly in
                          cheek>.

                          --
                          Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
                          "There seems to be some curious connection between piety and poor rhymes."
                          --Oscar Wilde
                          Currently reading: The Worm Ouroboros by E.R. Eddison
                        • Stolzi@aol.com
                          In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ... At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors Anonymous.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
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                            In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
                            lisa@... writes:


                            > And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                            > Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                            At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors
                            Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary Hunnewell
                            (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the habit with
                            The Patch."

                            Diamond Proudbrook


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                            Actually, that was me with The Patch (speaking of Elvish linguists and humor(lessness)). ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
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                              Actually, that was me with "The Patch" (speaking of Elvish linguists
                              and humor(lessness)).


                              On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 10:24 AM, Stolzi@... wrote:

                              > At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien
                              > Collectors
                              > Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary
                              > Hunnewell
                              > (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the
                              > habit with
                              > The Patch."



                              |======================================================================|
                              | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                              | |
                              | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                              | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                              | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                              | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                              | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                              |======================================================================|


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • William Calhoun
                              ... Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 23, 2003
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                                >Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                >refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                >concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                >generation, that is

                                Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they
                                have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                                justice must at some point refer to specific acts, people, places and
                                situations. If it doesn't then it's irrelevant.

                                Bright Blessings,

                                William
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                                To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                                > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                                >
                                > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                                > > offers a
                                > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                                > > and
                                > > loved).
                                >
                                > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                >
                                > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                > generation, that is.
                                >
                                > Ernest.
                                > --
                                > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                >
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