Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists

Expand Messages
  • jamcconney@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Yes, you are so right. I think we tend not to realize the tremendous effect fandom has on
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
      SusanPal@... writes:

      > And this is, as the much-maligned Martha Stewart would say, A Good Thing.
      >
      Yes, you are so right. I think we tend not to realize the tremendous effect
      fandom has on its participants and thus on our society. Remember the young
      woman who was kicked off a jury a few years ago because she insisted on
      wearing her Star Trek uniform? She said she wanted to wear it because she
      upheld the Trek ideals of justice. Perhaps years from now she will think she
      made a fool of herself and be embarrassed. I hope not. The fannishness may
      fade but the ideals and aspirations have a way of staying.

      Perhaps a hundred or so years from now dissertaions will be written about how
      not only the thought and ambiance but theactual history of our time was
      influenced by LotR and ST. I think they will find an enormous amount of
      material to work with.

      Anne


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • SusanPal@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:47:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now offers a course in
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:47:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
        jamcconney@... writes:


        > Remember the young
        > woman who was kicked off a jury a few years ago because she insisted on
        > wearing her Star Trek uniform? She said she wanted to wear it because she
        > upheld the Trek ideals of justice.

        The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now offers a
        course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took, and
        loved). So maybe that young woman wasn't so far off the mark!

        Susan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • WendellWag@aol.com
        The problem with a lot of _The Onion_ s humor is that it affects this world-weary, I m-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it s very finely
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          The problem with a lot of _The Onion_'s humor is that it affects this
          world-weary, I'm-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it's very
          finely observed humor, but it's clear that they find anybody with an
          enthusiastic interest in anything to be faintly ridiculous. Take a look at
          their articles. They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so
          what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about something doesn't
          make them funny.

          Wendell Wagner
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about something doesn t make them funny. But that
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because
            someone has a genuine passion about something doesn't make them funny. >>

            But that is a common thing these days, Wendell, at least I've seen it
            often. I don't read _The Onion_ and computer troubles have prevented me
            following recent discussions, but your comment was too poignant to let
            pass. Is it part of a habit of self-aggrandizement (sp) perhaps? A
            remnant of that elbow nudge over the nerdy kid? What is so threatening
            about admiring other people for their gifts and interesting points?

            Lizzie Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
          • WendellWag@aol.com
            Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours ago and it never came back to me. I m going to assume that the Yahoo groups
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours
              ago and it never came back to me. I'm going to assume that the Yahoo groups
              server just ate it, so I'm resending it now. My apologies if it reached
              other people but not me. You know, this has happened a lot of times. Have
              we ever considered using something other than yahoogroups.com for this
              mailing list?

              ******************************************************************************

              ********************

              The problem with a lot of _The Onion_'s humor is that it affects this
              world-weary, I'm-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it's very
              finely observed humor, but it's clear that they find anybody with an
              enthusiastic interest in anything to be faintly ridiculous. Take a look at a
              selection of their articles. They frequently have some type nailed
              precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about
              something doesn't make them funny.

              Wendell Wagner
            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
              ... From: SusanPal@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists In a message dated
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Original Message:
                -----------------
                From: SusanPal@...
                Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                In a message dated 4/17/2003 8:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                Aelfwine@... writes:


                > _I_ thought _The Onion_ piece was _hilarious_!
                >

                << Me too! Even though I'm linguistically impaired and know precisely one
                Elvish phrase: "Mae govannen." >>

                I loved it! Subtle humor is so rare these days. Even though I can't begin
                to pronounce the Elvish for "A star shines on our meeting." I forget how
                to proceed after the first word! But I love it when Liv Tyler pronounces
                it.

                I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
                would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc? (Or
                know if they're doing one? They've got zillions of movie tie-ins; why not
                that one?) ---djb



                Susan


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                http://mail2web.com/ .
              • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, dianejoy@earthlink.net ... Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I d probably dislike
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, "dianejoy@..."
                  <dianejoy@...> said:

                  > I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
                  > would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc?

                  Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I'd
                  probably dislike two-thirds of the tracks.

                  Others more knowledgeable than myself will have to instruct me here: how
                  close to correct were the pronunciations of Cate Blanchett, Liv Tyler,
                  and the other "Elvish" actors? I suppose it's a bit whacked to be
                  speaking of the "correct" pronunciation of a purely synthetic language,
                  but Tolkien did leave some rules, and according to them, Blanchett et al.
                  committed at least a few whoppers that I can remember, e.g. "EAR-endil"
                  instead of "E-a-rendil." I'm pretty sure "SMEA-gol" is wrong as well.

                  For my part, the less I have to endure of Tyler dentalizing her
                  consonants, the better.

                  Ernest.
                  --
                  Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                  "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                  illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                  ... Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there being very
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

                    > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                    > offers a
                    > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                    > and
                    > loved).

                    Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                    different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                    being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                    and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?

                    Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                    refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                    concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                    generation, that is.

                    Ernest.
                    --
                    Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                    "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                    illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                  • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                    ... But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It s not just
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:52:04 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

                      > To each his own. But I can't agree with any automatic dismissal of
                      > fandom, because most of the "fanboys" (or girls) I know are genuinely complex and
                      > multifaceted people, often *more* multifacted than non-fans. In my
                      > experience, what sets fans apart from the rest of the population isn't
                      > monomania, but the ability to become intensely passionate about anything
                      > at all in the midst of a superficial consumer culture.

                      But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a
                      product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It's
                      not just Star Trek the TV show, say; it's toys, games, T-shirts, all of
                      the gimcrackery that ill-paid labourers in China or Indonesia can churn
                      out for Western collectors. The same for Star Wars, or the Simpsons (and
                      a better example of an original work of art now completely suborned to
                      strictly commercial concerns you'll never find), or model unicorns. Not
                      all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                      that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                      and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                      interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                      memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                      them.

                      > When she decided to give up drinking, she had an Elvish blessing
                      > inscribed on a silver ring which she wears as a promise to herself; she liked the
                      > Elvish blessing so much that she just had it tattooed across her back,
                      > stretching from shoulder to shoulder.

                      I can appreciate that, especially since no power on Earth or heaven has
                      been able to get _me_ to stop drinking. I have no answer to that.

                      Ernest.
                      --
                      Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                      "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                      illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                    • David S Bratman
                      ... The fannish spirit ? That s like saying that the urge to go outdoors and enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it s an endemic
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 05:53 PM 4/21/2003 -0800, Ernest wrote:

                        >Not
                        >all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                        >that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                        >and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                        >interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                        >memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                        >them.

                        "The fannish spirit"? That's like saying that the urge to go outdoors and
                        enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it's an
                        endemic form of Tolkien fandom in the FSU), or that the urge to bash
                        smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                        of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.* I'm an American,
                        a Tolkienist, and a fan, and I don't believe in any of those things.

                        In each case, a trait of some people at some times has been mistaken as
                        characteristic of the whole.

                        I also wonder if you've mistaken the collecting urge for the consumerist
                        urge. The trait of the consumerist is to buy what's new, and then ignore
                        or discard it in favor of newer, shinier things. The trait of the
                        collector is to keep, not to buy; and indeed the dedicated collector may
                        ignore what's new in favor of what's old. The danger of over-manic
                        collecting was depicted in "The Enchanted Duplicator" back in 1954 as a
                        distraction from the fannish spirit: so it's been around fandom a lot
                        longer than commercial consumerism has, but it was deemed alien to the
                        fannish spirit even then.

                        - David Bratman
                      • David S Bratman
                        ... Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read I m referring not so much to Iraq as to France. - David Bratman
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 09:12 PM 4/21/2003 -0700, I wrote:

                          >or that the urge to bash
                          >smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                          >of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.*

                          Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read "I'm
                          referring not so much to Iraq as to France."

                          - David Bratman
                        • William Calhoun
                          I think it s a great idea. It isn t that ST is such a perfect example of justice, it s that the stories and symbols have become a common language. The students
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think it's a great idea. It isn't that ST is such a perfect example of
                            justice, it's that the stories and symbols have become a common language.
                            The students will be sharing a common language. Plus, working from stories
                            is a lot more interesting than working from a dry text. Some of the most
                            interesting popular science books out now are based on this use of ST.
                            "Physics in Star Trek", "Biology in Star Trek", etc. Probably made such
                            subjects a lot more interesting to people than the way it was done in my
                            high school.

                            If Perry Mason were as widely known and watched as Star Trek, a course using
                            that show would be perfectly appropriate.

                            Bright Blessings,

                            William

                            From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                            To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                            > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                            >
                            > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                            > > offers a
                            > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                            > > and
                            > > loved).
                            >
                            > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                            > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                            > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                            > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                            >
                            > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                            > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                            > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                            > generation, that is.
                            >
                            > Ernest.
                            > --
                            > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                            > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                            > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                          • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
                            Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved, beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace . I have multiple copies
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved,
                              beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace <g>. I have
                              multiple copies of the Hobbit and LotR, hard back and paper, some
                              because they are beautiful, some because they have some new bits. Does
                              that make me a terrible?

                              And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                              Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                              We won't go into my t-shirt collection, which includes a lot of travel
                              t's as well as Mythcon t's, other con t's, and tv & movie t's. And the
                              other books, dolls, space ships (some tv/film, some made up). Oh, and I
                              collect Unicorns (which is hard because unicorns aren't "In" anymore).

                              By the way, if you want to make the LotR costumes from the movies, you
                              become an obsessive collector. The dolls were made from laser scanning
                              the actors wearing their costumes and are very accurate. The books are
                              also useful for additional information including original sketches. And
                              making the costumes is hardly a "Passive" activity.

                              I've enjoyed it all. It is part of the fun. The top of the bookcases
                              (which are packed all over the house) have the displays. The insides of
                              the bookcases are filled with books. With pictures of family (gotta put
                              them someplace) and a few smaller collectables in front.

                              You can rant all you want and not collect it. That is your right. But we
                              are fans too. And if you discount the collectors who are having fun, you
                              are also cutting out a lot of people with a lot of varied interests who
                              can quote you Tolkien better than you can and are much more involved in
                              all the levels of life the universe and everything.

                              I'm facinated by all the various types of fans out there and even
                              getting a glimpses of what they see in their activity. I feel it just
                              enriches my life.

                              You life is all the poorer for your limited view of fandom in all its
                              facets.

                              Mythically yours,
                              Lisa
                            • Matthew Winslow
                              ... Aren t you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is the title of the class. If we exchange Shakespeare for Star Trek we have
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ernest S. Tomlinson [thiophene@...] wrote:
                                > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                >
                                > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                > generation, that is.

                                Aren't you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is
                                the title of the class. If we exchange 'Shakespeare' for 'Star Trek' we have
                                what sounds like a senior-level seminar in English, where the operative word
                                is usually the 'in'. That is, they're not looking at ethics and justice
                                with Star Trek or the Bard as the springboard for a disucssion of a universal
                                concept, but rather, looking at the how one particular author or 'text'
                                examines a particular issue. If such is the case, then you almost /have to/
                                assume E&J to be universal concepts, or at least have some broad meaning.

                                And having done the undergrad and grad routine in English, I'm guessing I'm
                                more in the right. (Besides, if I weren't of such an opinion, you wouldn't be
                                reading this email <g>.)

                                So, what we're down to is a battle of competing interpretations of a very
                                vague phrase. However, to come down on one side and start making broad sweeps
                                without /any/ textual evidence seems to me, well, whacked </tongue firmly in
                                cheek>.

                                --
                                Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
                                "There seems to be some curious connection between piety and poor rhymes."
                                --Oscar Wilde
                                Currently reading: The Worm Ouroboros by E.R. Eddison
                              • Stolzi@aol.com
                                In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ... At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors Anonymous.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                  lisa@... writes:


                                  > And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                                  > Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                                  At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors
                                  Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary Hunnewell
                                  (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the habit with
                                  The Patch."

                                  Diamond Proudbrook


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Carl F. Hostetter
                                  Actually, that was me with The Patch (speaking of Elvish linguists and humor(lessness)). ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Actually, that was me with "The Patch" (speaking of Elvish linguists
                                    and humor(lessness)).


                                    On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 10:24 AM, Stolzi@... wrote:

                                    > At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien
                                    > Collectors
                                    > Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary
                                    > Hunnewell
                                    > (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the
                                    > habit with
                                    > The Patch."



                                    |======================================================================|
                                    | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                                    | |
                                    | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                                    | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                                    | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                                    | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                                    | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                                    |======================================================================|


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • William Calhoun
                                    ... Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 23, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      >Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                      >refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                      >concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                      >generation, that is

                                      Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they
                                      have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                                      justice must at some point refer to specific acts, people, places and
                                      situations. If it doesn't then it's irrelevant.

                                      Bright Blessings,

                                      William
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                                      To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                                      > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                                      >
                                      > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                                      > > offers a
                                      > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                                      > > and
                                      > > loved).
                                      >
                                      > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                      > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                      > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                      > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                      >
                                      > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                      > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                      > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                      > generation, that is.
                                      >
                                      > Ernest.
                                      > --
                                      > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                      > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                      > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.