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Elvish linguists

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    I hope no one is too angry at me for posting this link. Yes, it s _The Onion_ s typical snide dismissal of anyone who s too enthusiastic about something that
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
      I hope no one is too angry at me for posting this link. Yes, it's _The
      Onion_'s typical snide dismissal of anyone who's too enthusiastic about
      something that they aren't interested in:

      http://www.theonion.com/onion3913/dont_come_crying.html

      Wendell Wagner
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      As an honest-to-goodness, bona-fide, credentialled, card-carrying Elvish linguist (kids, don t try this at home), I resemble that remark perhaps more than
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
        As an honest-to-goodness, bona-fide, credentialled, card-carrying
        Elvish linguist (kids, don't try this at home), I "resemble that
        remark" perhaps more than anyone else on this list; and _I_ thought
        _The Onion_ piece was _hilarious_!

        Hoy Flavin!

        Carl


        On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 11:35 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:

        > I hope no one is too angry at me for posting this link. Yes, it's _The
        > Onion_'s typical snide dismissal of anyone who's too enthusiastic about
        > something that they aren't interested in:
        >
        > http://www.theonion.com/onion3913/dont_come_crying.html
      • SusanPal@aol.com
        In a message dated 4/17/2003 8:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Me too! Even though I m linguistically impaired and know precisely one Elvish phrase: Mae
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
          In a message dated 4/17/2003 8:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          Aelfwine@... writes:


          > _I_ thought
          > _The Onion_ piece was _hilarious_!
          >

          Me too! Even though I'm linguistically impaired and know precisely one
          Elvish phrase: "Mae govannen."

          Susan


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ernest S. Tomlinson
          ... My governess? (I don t know _any_ Elvish.) I didn t think the Onion piece was particularly funny, nor particularly insulting; it was, like so much of that
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
            On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

            > Me too! Even though I'm linguistically impaired and know precisely one
            > Elvish phrase: "Mae govannen."

            My governess? (I don't know _any_ Elvish.)

            I didn't think the Onion piece was particularly funny, nor particularly
            insulting; it was, like so much of that sophomoric brand of humor, one
            joke driven into the ground. To cite another Tolkien-related instance,
            _Bored of the Rings_ once you get past the funny names ("Dildo" for
            "Bilbo"! Haw-haw-haw!) and the references to those twin gods of
            adolescence, intoxication and fornication, what have you got? Certainly
            nothing memorable. Someone who genuinely wanted to critique the
            assumptions underlying _The Lord of the Rings_ could write a good satire
            on it, just as Stanley Kubrick and Terry Southern wrote _Dr. Strangelove_
            to be a critique on the underlying values of American military and
            foreign policy, not just a superficial parody. But that satire of LotR
            hasn't been written yet.

            FWIW, I am genuinely interested in Elvish, but not with the monomaniacal
            focus of the fanboy. That's why I don't fit in well in fan clubs,
            because I am interested in too many other things besides, and focus on
            everything and nothing, rather than devoting my waking hours to (say)
            anime movies or chess.

            Ernest.
            --
            Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
            "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
            illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
          • SusanPal@aol.com
            In a message dated 4/17/2003 10:31:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Well met. :-) Susan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
              In a message dated 4/17/2003 10:31:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
              thiophene@... writes:


              > My governess? (I don't know _any_ Elvish.)
              >

              Well met. :-)

              Susan


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              The _Onion_ piece is also surprisingly informed, too. I bet there are a great many Tolkien fans and enthusiasts, including not a few on this list, who have
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
                The _Onion_ piece is also surprisingly informed, too. I bet there are a
                great many Tolkien fans and enthusiasts, including not a few on this
                list, who have never heard of Tolkien's _Etymologies_ or know of its
                place in the study of Tolkien's languages and nomenclature. But someone
                at _The Onion_ knows!


                |======================================================================|
                | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                | |
                | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                |======================================================================|


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • SusanPal@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/17/2003 10:31:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... To each his own. But I can t agree with any automatic dismissal of fandom, because most of
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
                  In a message dated 4/17/2003 10:31:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  thiophene@... writes:


                  > That's why I don't fit in well in fan clubs,
                  > because I am interested in too many other things besides, and focus on
                  > everything and nothing, rather than devoting my waking hours to (say)
                  > anime movies or chess.
                  >

                  To each his own. But I can't agree with any automatic dismissal of fandom,
                  because most of the "fanboys" (or girls) I know are genuinely complex and
                  multifaceted people, often *more* multifacted than non-fans. In my
                  experience, what sets fans apart from the rest of the population isn't
                  monomania, but the ability to become intensely passionate about anything at
                  all in the midst of a superficial consumer culture.

                  I should acknowledge that I'm biased here; Star Trek fandom had a huge and
                  positive influence on me (and on several of my friends) when I was an unhappy
                  adolescent. My goddaughter, who's struggled with a number of serious -- and
                  life-threatening -- psychiatric issues, has been able to find, in Trek and
                  LotR, the hope and strength to work towards recovery. She's VERY "fannish."
                  When she decided to give up drinking, she had an Elvish blessing inscribed on
                  a silver ring which she wears as a promise to herself; she liked the Elvish
                  blessing so much that she just had it tattooed across her back, stretching
                  from shoulder to shoulder. (One only hopes she likes it as much in thirty
                  years!) I'm sure it would be easy for someone who doesn't know her well to
                  look at her and dismiss her as a "fangirl," but in her case, her fannishness
                  has functioned as a tool to help her engage more fully, and in a much more
                  healthy way, with the non-fannish world.

                  And this is, as the much-maligned Martha Stewart would say, A Good Thing.

                  Susan


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jamcconney@aol.com
                  In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Yes, you are so right. I think we tend not to realize the tremendous effect fandom has on
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
                    In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    SusanPal@... writes:

                    > And this is, as the much-maligned Martha Stewart would say, A Good Thing.
                    >
                    Yes, you are so right. I think we tend not to realize the tremendous effect
                    fandom has on its participants and thus on our society. Remember the young
                    woman who was kicked off a jury a few years ago because she insisted on
                    wearing her Star Trek uniform? She said she wanted to wear it because she
                    upheld the Trek ideals of justice. Perhaps years from now she will think she
                    made a fool of herself and be embarrassed. I hope not. The fannishness may
                    fade but the ideals and aspirations have a way of staying.

                    Perhaps a hundred or so years from now dissertaions will be written about how
                    not only the thought and ambiance but theactual history of our time was
                    influenced by LotR and ST. I think they will find an enormous amount of
                    material to work with.

                    Anne


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • SusanPal@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:47:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now offers a course in
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
                      In a message dated 4/17/2003 1:47:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      jamcconney@... writes:


                      > Remember the young
                      > woman who was kicked off a jury a few years ago because she insisted on
                      > wearing her Star Trek uniform? She said she wanted to wear it because she
                      > upheld the Trek ideals of justice.

                      The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now offers a
                      course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took, and
                      loved). So maybe that young woman wasn't so far off the mark!

                      Susan


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • WendellWag@aol.com
                      The problem with a lot of _The Onion_ s humor is that it affects this world-weary, I m-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it s very finely
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 17, 2003
                        The problem with a lot of _The Onion_'s humor is that it affects this
                        world-weary, I'm-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it's very
                        finely observed humor, but it's clear that they find anybody with an
                        enthusiastic interest in anything to be faintly ridiculous. Take a look at
                        their articles. They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so
                        what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about something doesn't
                        make them funny.

                        Wendell Wagner
                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about something doesn t make them funny. But that
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
                          They frequently have some type nailed precisely, but so what? Just because
                          someone has a genuine passion about something doesn't make them funny. >>

                          But that is a common thing these days, Wendell, at least I've seen it
                          often. I don't read _The Onion_ and computer troubles have prevented me
                          following recent discussions, but your comment was too poignant to let
                          pass. Is it part of a habit of self-aggrandizement (sp) perhaps? A
                          remnant of that elbow nudge over the nerdy kid? What is so threatening
                          about admiring other people for their gifts and interesting points?

                          Lizzie Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                        • WendellWag@aol.com
                          Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours ago and it never came back to me. I m going to assume that the Yahoo groups
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
                            Did other people receive the following message of mine? I sent it nine hours
                            ago and it never came back to me. I'm going to assume that the Yahoo groups
                            server just ate it, so I'm resending it now. My apologies if it reached
                            other people but not me. You know, this has happened a lot of times. Have
                            we ever considered using something other than yahoogroups.com for this
                            mailing list?

                            ******************************************************************************

                            ********************

                            The problem with a lot of _The Onion_'s humor is that it affects this
                            world-weary, I'm-above-all-that attitude about *everything*. Yes, it's very
                            finely observed humor, but it's clear that they find anybody with an
                            enthusiastic interest in anything to be faintly ridiculous. Take a look at a
                            selection of their articles. They frequently have some type nailed
                            precisely, but so what? Just because someone has a genuine passion about
                            something doesn't make them funny.

                            Wendell Wagner
                          • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                            ... From: SusanPal@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists In a message dated
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
                              Original Message:
                              -----------------
                              From: SusanPal@...
                              Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:41 EDT
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                              In a message dated 4/17/2003 8:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              Aelfwine@... writes:


                              > _I_ thought _The Onion_ piece was _hilarious_!
                              >

                              << Me too! Even though I'm linguistically impaired and know precisely one
                              Elvish phrase: "Mae govannen." >>

                              I loved it! Subtle humor is so rare these days. Even though I can't begin
                              to pronounce the Elvish for "A star shines on our meeting." I forget how
                              to proceed after the first word! But I love it when Liv Tyler pronounces
                              it.

                              I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
                              would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc? (Or
                              know if they're doing one? They've got zillions of movie tie-ins; why not
                              that one?) ---djb



                              Susan


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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                            • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                              On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, dianejoy@earthlink.net ... Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I d probably dislike
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 18, 2003
                                On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:04:09 -0400, "dianejoy@..."
                                <dianejoy@...> said:

                                > I wish she'd make a CD of Elvish poetry, and speaking all her lines; it
                                > would be music to my ears. Would any other Mythies like such a disc?

                                Only if her father provides the musical accompaniment, and even then I'd
                                probably dislike two-thirds of the tracks.

                                Others more knowledgeable than myself will have to instruct me here: how
                                close to correct were the pronunciations of Cate Blanchett, Liv Tyler,
                                and the other "Elvish" actors? I suppose it's a bit whacked to be
                                speaking of the "correct" pronunciation of a purely synthetic language,
                                but Tolkien did leave some rules, and according to them, Blanchett et al.
                                committed at least a few whoppers that I can remember, e.g. "EAR-endil"
                                instead of "E-a-rendil." I'm pretty sure "SMEA-gol" is wrong as well.

                                For my part, the less I have to endure of Tyler dentalizing her
                                consonants, the better.

                                Ernest.
                                --
                                Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                              • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                                ... Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there being very
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                  On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

                                  > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                                  > offers a
                                  > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                                  > and
                                  > loved).

                                  Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                  different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                  being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                  and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?

                                  Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                  refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                  concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                  generation, that is.

                                  Ernest.
                                  --
                                  Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                  "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                  illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                • Ernest S. Tomlinson
                                  ... But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It s not just
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                    On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:52:04 EDT, SusanPal@... said:

                                    > To each his own. But I can't agree with any automatic dismissal of
                                    > fandom, because most of the "fanboys" (or girls) I know are genuinely complex and
                                    > multifaceted people, often *more* multifacted than non-fans. In my
                                    > experience, what sets fans apart from the rest of the population isn't
                                    > monomania, but the ability to become intensely passionate about anything
                                    > at all in the midst of a superficial consumer culture.

                                    But the delightfully ironic thing is that they are passionate about a
                                    product of _precisely that self-same_ superficial consumer culture! It's
                                    not just Star Trek the TV show, say; it's toys, games, T-shirts, all of
                                    the gimcrackery that ill-paid labourers in China or Indonesia can churn
                                    out for Western collectors. The same for Star Wars, or the Simpsons (and
                                    a better example of an original work of art now completely suborned to
                                    strictly commercial concerns you'll never find), or model unicorns. Not
                                    all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                                    that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                                    and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                                    interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                                    memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                                    them.

                                    > When she decided to give up drinking, she had an Elvish blessing
                                    > inscribed on a silver ring which she wears as a promise to herself; she liked the
                                    > Elvish blessing so much that she just had it tattooed across her back,
                                    > stretching from shoulder to shoulder.

                                    I can appreciate that, especially since no power on Earth or heaven has
                                    been able to get _me_ to stop drinking. I have no answer to that.

                                    Ernest.
                                    --
                                    Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                    "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                    illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                  • David S Bratman
                                    ... The fannish spirit ? That s like saying that the urge to go outdoors and enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it s an endemic
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                      At 05:53 PM 4/21/2003 -0800, Ernest wrote:

                                      >Not
                                      >all fannish interests are so corporatized, of course, but I have found
                                      >that the consumerist urge, to buy more books, more pictures, more tapes
                                      >and discs, is always integral to the fannish spirit. If you're
                                      >interested in manual typewriters, slide rules, or Elvis Presley
                                      >memorabilia, you don't have just one or two; you've got closets full of
                                      >them.

                                      "The fannish spirit"? That's like saying that the urge to go outdoors and
                                      enact live role-playing games is integral to the Tolkien spirit (it's an
                                      endemic form of Tolkien fandom in the FSU), or that the urge to bash
                                      smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                                      of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.* I'm an American,
                                      a Tolkienist, and a fan, and I don't believe in any of those things.

                                      In each case, a trait of some people at some times has been mistaken as
                                      characteristic of the whole.

                                      I also wonder if you've mistaken the collecting urge for the consumerist
                                      urge. The trait of the consumerist is to buy what's new, and then ignore
                                      or discard it in favor of newer, shinier things. The trait of the
                                      collector is to keep, not to buy; and indeed the dedicated collector may
                                      ignore what's new in favor of what's old. The danger of over-manic
                                      collecting was depicted in "The Enchanted Duplicator" back in 1954 as a
                                      distraction from the fannish spirit: so it's been around fandom a lot
                                      longer than commercial consumerism has, but it was deemed alien to the
                                      fannish spirit even then.

                                      - David Bratman
                                    • David S Bratman
                                      ... Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read I m referring not so much to Iraq as to France. - David Bratman
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                        At 09:12 PM 4/21/2003 -0700, I wrote:

                                        >or that the urge to bash
                                        >smaller countries into submission whenever we don't like them, regardless
                                        >of the consequences, is integral to the American spirit.*

                                        Oops, there was going to be a footnote here, which was to read "I'm
                                        referring not so much to Iraq as to France."

                                        - David Bratman
                                      • William Calhoun
                                        I think it s a great idea. It isn t that ST is such a perfect example of justice, it s that the stories and symbols have become a common language. The students
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                          I think it's a great idea. It isn't that ST is such a perfect example of
                                          justice, it's that the stories and symbols have become a common language.
                                          The students will be sharing a common language. Plus, working from stories
                                          is a lot more interesting than working from a dry text. Some of the most
                                          interesting popular science books out now are based on this use of ST.
                                          "Physics in Star Trek", "Biology in Star Trek", etc. Probably made such
                                          subjects a lot more interesting to people than the way it was done in my
                                          high school.

                                          If Perry Mason were as widely known and watched as Star Trek, a course using
                                          that show would be perfectly appropriate.

                                          Bright Blessings,

                                          William

                                          From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                                          To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                                          > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                                          >
                                          > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                                          > > offers a
                                          > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                                          > > and
                                          > > loved).
                                          >
                                          > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                          > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                          > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                          > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                          >
                                          > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                          > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                          > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                          > generation, that is.
                                          >
                                          > Ernest.
                                          > --
                                          > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                          > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                          > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                          >
                                        • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
                                          Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved, beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace . I have multiple copies
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 21, 2003
                                            Hey, I still have the Original LotR Bellantine Paperbacks! Well loved,
                                            beat up garish colors and all. My husband may have the Ace <g>. I have
                                            multiple copies of the Hobbit and LotR, hard back and paper, some
                                            because they are beautiful, some because they have some new bits. Does
                                            that make me a terrible?

                                            And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                                            Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                                            We won't go into my t-shirt collection, which includes a lot of travel
                                            t's as well as Mythcon t's, other con t's, and tv & movie t's. And the
                                            other books, dolls, space ships (some tv/film, some made up). Oh, and I
                                            collect Unicorns (which is hard because unicorns aren't "In" anymore).

                                            By the way, if you want to make the LotR costumes from the movies, you
                                            become an obsessive collector. The dolls were made from laser scanning
                                            the actors wearing their costumes and are very accurate. The books are
                                            also useful for additional information including original sketches. And
                                            making the costumes is hardly a "Passive" activity.

                                            I've enjoyed it all. It is part of the fun. The top of the bookcases
                                            (which are packed all over the house) have the displays. The insides of
                                            the bookcases are filled with books. With pictures of family (gotta put
                                            them someplace) and a few smaller collectables in front.

                                            You can rant all you want and not collect it. That is your right. But we
                                            are fans too. And if you discount the collectors who are having fun, you
                                            are also cutting out a lot of people with a lot of varied interests who
                                            can quote you Tolkien better than you can and are much more involved in
                                            all the levels of life the universe and everything.

                                            I'm facinated by all the various types of fans out there and even
                                            getting a glimpses of what they see in their activity. I feel it just
                                            enriches my life.

                                            You life is all the poorer for your limited view of fandom in all its
                                            facets.

                                            Mythically yours,
                                            Lisa
                                          • Matthew Winslow
                                            ... Aren t you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is the title of the class. If we exchange Shakespeare for Star Trek we have
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                                              Ernest S. Tomlinson [thiophene@...] wrote:
                                              > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                              > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                              > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                              > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                              >
                                              > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                              > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                              > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                              > generation, that is.

                                              Aren't you assuming a bit much here, Ernest? I mean, all we have to go on is
                                              the title of the class. If we exchange 'Shakespeare' for 'Star Trek' we have
                                              what sounds like a senior-level seminar in English, where the operative word
                                              is usually the 'in'. That is, they're not looking at ethics and justice
                                              with Star Trek or the Bard as the springboard for a disucssion of a universal
                                              concept, but rather, looking at the how one particular author or 'text'
                                              examines a particular issue. If such is the case, then you almost /have to/
                                              assume E&J to be universal concepts, or at least have some broad meaning.

                                              And having done the undergrad and grad routine in English, I'm guessing I'm
                                              more in the right. (Besides, if I weren't of such an opinion, you wouldn't be
                                              reading this email <g>.)

                                              So, what we're down to is a battle of competing interpretations of a very
                                              vague phrase. However, to come down on one side and start making broad sweeps
                                              without /any/ textual evidence seems to me, well, whacked </tongue firmly in
                                              cheek>.

                                              --
                                              Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
                                              "There seems to be some curious connection between piety and poor rhymes."
                                              --Oscar Wilde
                                              Currently reading: The Worm Ouroboros by E.R. Eddison
                                            • Stolzi@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ... At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors Anonymous.
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                                                In a message dated 4/22/2003 12:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                lisa@... writes:


                                                > And I'm an Amateur compared to some of my friends who have Bookcases of
                                                > Various Editions in various languages. They are the True Collectors.

                                                At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien Collectors
                                                Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary Hunnewell
                                                (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the habit with
                                                The Patch."

                                                Diamond Proudbrook


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                                Actually, that was me with The Patch (speaking of Elvish linguists and humor(lessness)). ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Apr 22, 2003
                                                  Actually, that was me with "The Patch" (speaking of Elvish linguists
                                                  and humor(lessness)).


                                                  On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 10:24 AM, Stolzi@... wrote:

                                                  > At Milwaukee Mythcon we had a special presentation of Tolkien
                                                  > Collectors
                                                  > Anonymous. (Hello, I'm John and I'm...) I seem to remember Gary
                                                  > Hunnewell
                                                  > (?) with a book jacket taped to his arm: "I'm trying to kick the
                                                  > habit with
                                                  > The Patch."



                                                  |======================================================================|
                                                  | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                                                  | |
                                                  | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                                                  | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                                                  | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                                                  | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                                                  | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                                                  |======================================================================|


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • William Calhoun
                                                  ... Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Apr 23, 2003
                                                    >Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                                    >refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                                    >concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                                    >generation, that is

                                                    Universal concepts must be placed in a particular context, otherwise they
                                                    have no meaning and no applicability. ANY attempt to talk about ethics and
                                                    justice must at some point refer to specific acts, people, places and
                                                    situations. If it doesn't then it's irrelevant.

                                                    Bright Blessings,

                                                    William
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Ernest S. Tomlinson" <thiophene@...>
                                                    To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:42 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Elvish linguists


                                                    > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:00:23 EDT, SusanPal@... said:
                                                    >
                                                    > > The criminal-justice department of the university where I teach now
                                                    > > offers a
                                                    > > course in "Ethics and Justice in Star Trek" (which my goddaughter took,
                                                    > > and
                                                    > > loved).
                                                    >
                                                    > Am I the only one that thinks this is completely whacked? How is this
                                                    > different from selecting (say) the Erle Stanley Gardner novels, there
                                                    > being very probably more of them than there are of Star Trek episodes,
                                                    > and creating a course called, "Ethics and Justice in 'Perry Mason'"?
                                                    >
                                                    > Ethics and justice are, or should be, universal concepts. If we have to
                                                    > refer to something particular like Star Trek in order to teach these
                                                    > concepts to the next generation, then we should give up on them. The
                                                    > generation, that is.
                                                    >
                                                    > Ernest.
                                                    > --
                                                    > Ernest S. Tomlinson / thiophene@...
                                                    > "If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling
                                                    > illusion that it has been mastered." (Stanley Kubrick)
                                                    >
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