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Re: [mythsoc] The Two Towers

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:31 PM Central Standard Time, ... Agreed! ... The costume & mustaches killed me! He looked like he belonged in the Emerald
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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      In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:31 PM Central Standard Time,
      thiophene@... writes:


      > I think Billy Crystal made a fine gravedigger.

      Agreed!

      > Robin Williams doing Osric with fey, lisping mannerisms was unforgivable,
      > though

      The costume & mustaches killed me! He looked like he belonged in the Emerald
      City of Oz.

      Cd have done without all the super-sexy stuff about Ophelia, and also the
      idea of Hamlet swinging down on the chandelier (or whatever) in the finale
      was... regrettable.

      But yes, it holds attention all the way through, and I can't forget the
      visual image of the great palace with its wide terrace (like a chessboard on
      which a great game is being played?) alone in the snowy waste.

      That lent authenticity to the part of the play which is on a world-events
      scale: Fortinbras and all that.

      Diamond Proudbrook


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Croft, Janet B
      I thought it was one of those uneven masterpieces -- spot-on perfect in most places, squirmingly off in others. But there s another Branagh full-text Hamlet I
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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        I thought it was one of those uneven masterpieces -- spot-on perfect in most
        places, squirmingly off in others. But there's another Branagh full-text
        Hamlet I like even better -- the BBC Radio version, also with Derek Jacobi
        as Claudius and with Judi Dench as Gertrude. If you search Amazon with
        "Hamlet BBC", you'll pull it up. It's available on CD and well worth it.

        Janet

        (PS Someone asked what Jacobi's been up to recently -- www.imdb.com
        <http://www.imdb.com> shows he's been very active in 2002, but the last
        thing he's done that I've actually heard of was Gosford Park, which alas I
        have not yet seen.)

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Stolzi@... [mailto:Stolzi@...]
        Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:53 AM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The Two Towers


        In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:31 PM Central Standard Time,
        thiophene@... writes:


        > I think Billy Crystal made a fine gravedigger.

        Agreed!

        > Robin Williams doing Osric with fey, lisping mannerisms was unforgivable,
        > though

        The costume & mustaches killed me! He looked like he belonged in the
        Emerald
        City of Oz.

        Cd have done without all the super-sexy stuff about Ophelia, and also the
        idea of Hamlet swinging down on the chandelier (or whatever) in the finale
        was... regrettable.

        But yes, it holds attention all the way through, and I can't forget the
        visual image of the great palace with its wide terrace (like a chessboard on

        which a great game is being played?) alone in the snowy waste.

        That lent authenticity to the part of the play which is on a world-events
        scale: Fortinbras and all that.

        Diamond Proudbrook


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Ernest Tomlinson
        ... From: To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The Two Towers ... unforgivable, ...
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <Stolzi@...>
          To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:53 AM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The Two Towers


          > In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:31 PM Central Standard Time,
          > thiophene@... writes:

          > > Robin Williams doing Osric with fey, lisping mannerisms was
          unforgivable,
          > > though
          >
          > The costume & mustaches killed me! He looked like he belonged in the
          Emerald
          > City of Oz.

          <snort> I don't think I'll be able to get _that_ similarity out of my mind
          now! It didn't occur to me at the time because, believe it or not, I saw
          _The Wizard of Oz_ some years _after_ watching Branagh's _Hamlet_.

          Branagh does give Osric one fine moment; when he announces the arrival of
          Fortinbras, he holds up his bloodied hand to demonstrate Fortinbras's
          "warlike volley".

          Osric's goofy costume points up another problem with Branagh's film; instead
          of setting the story in some definite period or place, _any_ place, he
          cobbles together an odd mixture of costumes and settings. It's everyplace
          and no place. Now I'm not goose enough to fret over Shakespeare
          adaptations' not being "faithful" to some definite setting; as Ian McKellen
          astutely pointed out when his and Richard Loncraine's _Richard III_ came out
          some years ago, the original Shakespearean productions were already
          "modernized"; even the Roman-era plays, which would look pretty strange to
          us if not portrayed in the usual toga-epic fashion that goes back at least
          as far as _Ben Hur_ (1925), were played in Elizabethan dress. All I ask is
          a self-consistent setting. McKellen and Loncraine set _Richard III_ in a
          semi-fantastic '30s England because that was the last time in our memory
          when it was conceivable that an English monarch could have become a
          political power; one thinks of the rumors that the Nazis approached Edward,
          the Duke of Windsor (or "Mr. Simpson" as my mother acidly called him), with
          plans to make him king if they succeeded in conquering England.

          It occurs to me though that I enjoyed Julie Taymor's recent _Titus_, even
          though its setting and costuming is even more wildly muddled than Branagh's.
          But it works, I hate to admit, in some crazy post-modern way, partly because
          Taymor's introduction to the film explicitly compares her staging of _Titus
          Andronicus_ to a child's violent fantasy, and as I can speak from personal
          experience, childish fantasy isn't bound by consistency; one grabs elements
          from any old place or source that appeals to the childlike imagination.

          Cheers,

          Ernest.
        • David S. Bratman
          ... I await the Jackson-defender types who will tell you simply not to think about it. ( Branagh s Hamlet is a movie! The Wizard of Oz is ... er, um ...
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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            At 11:48 AM 3/3/2003 , Ernest wrote:

            >[Stolzi wrote]
            >> The costume & mustaches killed me! He looked like he belonged in the
            >>Emerald City of Oz.
            >
            ><snort> I don't think I'll be able to get _that_ similarity out of my mind
            >now!

            I await the Jackson-defender types who will tell you simply not to think
            about it. ("Branagh's Hamlet is a movie! The Wizard of Oz is ... er, um
            ... another movie!")


            >one thinks of the rumors that the Nazis approached Edward,
            >the Duke of Windsor (or "Mr. Simpson" as my mother acidly called him)

            Unfortunately for that joke, there really was a Mr. Simpson: he was the man
            that Mrs. Simpson was divorcing in order to marry Edward. And just to be
            further irritating, Mr. Simpson's given name was ...


            - DB
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            David Bratman said: I await the Jackson-defender types who will tell you simply not to think about it. ( Branagh s Hamlet is a movie! The Wizard of Oz is ...
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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              David Bratman said: I await the Jackson-defender types who will tell you
              simply not to think
              about it. ("Branagh's Hamlet is a movie! The Wizard of Oz is ... er, um
              ... another movie!") >>

              (Pauses from deleting movie posts for a sec....) That would require caring
              as much about either of them as one cares about Tolkien. Or maybe care
              isn't the word. The power of something to sweep one away is beyond caring.


              Lizzie Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
            • Jason M. Abels
              ... If you want to get into, I can go into quite a bit about Books vs Movies, with the Wizard of Oz as my primary example. Both are movies that deviate
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                > (Pauses from deleting movie posts for a sec....) That would require caring
                > as much about either of them as one cares about Tolkien. Or maybe care
                > isn't the word. The power of something to sweep one away is beyond caring.

                If you want to get into, I can go into quite a bit about Books vs Movies, with
                the Wizard of Oz as my primary example. Both are movies that deviate (sometimes
                greatly) with the source material, even changing character motivations, and yet
                remain true (in my opinion) to the overall *feel* of the book.

                --
                Jason M. Abels
                "The world is coming down around our ears and you're sticking at a few
                vampires!" - Ben Mears, _Salem's Lot_
              • David S. Bratman
                ... (sometimes ... and yet ... Maybe we shouldn t, because the it was all a dream? frame-story of the 1939 Oz film seems to me to be utterly at odds with the
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  At 01:32 PM 3/3/2003 , Jason M. Abels wrote:

                  >If you want to get into, I can go into quite a bit about Books vs Movies, with
                  >the Wizard of Oz as my primary example. Both are movies that deviate
                  (sometimes
                  >greatly) with the source material, even changing character motivations,
                  and yet
                  >remain true (in my opinion) to the overall *feel* of the book.

                  Maybe we shouldn't, because the "it was all a dream?" frame-story of the
                  1939 Oz film seems to me to be utterly at odds with the feel and spirit of
                  the book, casting a pall over the entire proceedings. It's still a great
                  movie, but it won't give you much of an idea of what Baum is like. (Even
                  so, I will defend Jackson's LOTR as pretty good films, which won't give you
                  much of an idea of what Tolkien is like.)

                  - DB
                • Jason M. Abels
                  ... I black out when she says There s No place like home and I wake up when the credit s start to roll. I remember being *horrified* the first time I saw the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    > Maybe we shouldn't, because the "it was all a dream?" frame-story of the
                    > 1939 Oz film seems to me to be utterly at odds with the feel and spirit of
                    > the book, casting a pall over the entire proceedings.

                    I black out when she says "There's No place like home" and I wake up when the
                    credit's start to roll.

                    I remember being *horrified* the first time I saw the movie and they said "it
                    was all a dream". I was also horrified at Judy's age, the stupid lion, and
                    everything else they had cut from the book. Over time, though, it has become my
                    favorite movie because I think it still captures something of the original
                    magic.


                    > It's still a great
                    > movie, but it won't give you much of an idea of what Baum is like. (Even
                    > so, I will defend Jackson's LOTR as pretty good films, which won't give you
                    > much of an idea of what Tolkien is like.)

                    My opinion exactly.

                    --
                    Jason M. Abels
                    "The world is coming down around our ears and you're sticking at a few
                    vampires!" - Ben Mears, _Salem's Lot_
                  • Ernest Tomlinson
                    ... From: Jason M. Abels To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: RE: [mythsoc] The Two Towers ...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jason M. Abels" <jason@...>
                      To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:52 PM
                      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] The Two Towers

                      > I remember being *horrified* the first time I saw the movie and they said
                      "it
                      > was all a dream". I was also horrified at Judy's age, the stupid lion, and
                      > everything else they had cut from the book.

                      Roger Ebert lists _The Wizard of Oz_ among his "Great Movies", and defends
                      the casting of Judy Garland, saying that a child actress--especially, if I
                      may interject, at a time when serious child roles, qq.v. _Night of the
                      Hunter_ and _To Kill a Mockingbird_ among others, were still some years
                      away--would not have had the depth needed for the role of Dorothy. "When
                      she hoped that troubles would melt like lemon drops, you believed she had
                      troubles," writes Ebert. But of course he cites her reading--or singing
                      rather--of a line that is not Baum's.

                      Cheers,

                      Ernest.
                    • jamcconney@aol.com
                      In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:09 PM Central Standard Time, ... Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa! Anne P.S. Yes, I agree with you about Branagh, especially about
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                        In a message dated 3/2/2003 11:09:09 PM Central Standard Time,
                        thiophene@... writes:

                        > "Dave"?

                        Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa!

                        Anne

                        P.S. Yes, I agree with you about Branagh, especially about his tendency to
                        get way too cute. And I too loved his Henry V



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jamcconney@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:57:50 PM Central Standard Time, ... I remember reading the suggestion, not entirely unserious, that Titus Andronicus was a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                          In a message dated 3/3/2003 1:57:50 PM Central Standard Time,
                          thiophene@... writes:

                          > _Titus
                          > Andronicus_ to a child's violent fantasy

                          I remember reading the suggestion, not entirely unserious, that Titus
                          Andronicus was a collaboration between Marlowe and Shakespeare because it
                          would have taken TWO
                          twenty-something young men to think up all the horrors.

                          Anne


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jason M. Abels
                          ... Oh, I agree. Once I saw the movie, I knew that judy was right for the role as portrayed. Only she could have belted out those songs like that. I try to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                            > Roger Ebert lists _The Wizard of Oz_ among his "Great Movies", and defends
                            > the casting of Judy Garland, saying that a child
                            > actress--especially, if I
                            > may interject, at a time when serious child roles, qq.v. _Night of the
                            > Hunter_ and _To Kill a Mockingbird_ among others, were still some years
                            > away--would not have had the depth needed for the role of Dorothy. "When
                            > she hoped that troubles would melt like lemon drops, you believed she had
                            > troubles," writes Ebert. But of course he cites her reading--or singing
                            > rather--of a line that is not Baum's.

                            Oh, I agree. Once I saw the movie, I knew that judy was right for the role as
                            portrayed. Only she could have belted out those songs like that. I try to
                            picture Shriley Temple in the role and shudder. Judy was the wrong age for
                            book-dorothy. She was just right for movie-dorothy.



                            --
                            Jason M. Abels
                            "The world is coming down around our ears and you're sticking at a few
                            vampires!" - Ben Mears, _Salem's Lot_
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