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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Seattle stinks

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  • David S Bratman
    ... I can think of a few as good, including some that don t require one to be in a moving car to enjoy them. Some of these also are not themselves unsightly.
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
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      At 10:37 AM 3/1/2003 -0800, Ernest wrote:

      >Also, there's no better view of Seattle to be had than from the
      >northbound deck of the Viaduct.

      I can think of a few as good, including some that don't require one to be
      in a moving car to enjoy them. Some of these also are not themselves
      unsightly. Duwamish Head, just to name one. Ever been out
      there? Unfortunately much of its view of Seattle is blocked by ... the
      Viaduct.


      > Yes, the Viaduct is old and liable to
      >earthquake damage, but why not simply _repair_ it? That must be cheaper
      >than the ludicrous notion of wrecking it and replacing it with a tunnel
      >_under_ Alaskan Way, a notion that puts the lie to all of the developers'
      >fits over the Viaduct's unsafety: it's all fill under Alaskan Way, and a
      >tunnel through it isn't going to be any more earthquake-safe than the top of
      >the Viaduct.

      That depends entirely on how the tunnel is built. It's not the ground that
      makes construction earthquake-unsafe, it's how you build in that
      ground. The Viaduct is not in disrepair in some way that could be fixed
      for less money than building something new: it is unsafe in original
      construction down to its foundations. This was already well-known when I
      was living there, 20 years ago, and it's long past time to do something
      about it. It couldn't be "repaired" without tearing it down to those
      foundations and rebuilding it from scratch. Which is what they're going to
      do, only the new version will be less unsightly.

      I love it when ignorant amateurs complain that the professionals don't know
      what they're doing.

      - David Bratman
    • Jane Bigelow
      ... Sounds like the Big Dig in Boston - how long has =that= been going on? But I m afraid we re straying offtopic, unless one could consider these as
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
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        > This boondoggle going to cost billions, disrupt downtown
        > traffic for years,

        Sounds like the "Big Dig" in Boston - how long has =that= been going on?

        But I'm afraid we're straying offtopic, unless one could consider these as
        boondoggles of, ahem, MYTHIC proportions :)

        Diamond Proudbrook

        Ernest and Mary,

        Well, we could try to imagine Tolkien's reaction to these boondoggles.
        Would the fact that in San Francisco and Seattle people are actually
        removing superhighways please him? Or would he be too disgusted by the
        whole nonsense to care? I don't know whether Tolkien ever expressed his
        opinion of superhighways or not, but I'll bet he didn't care for them, and
        I'll also bet that someone on this list knows whether or not he ever
        commented in writing on the topic.

        Jane
      • Yvan <tinidril@yahoo.com>
        ... Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also have Seattle-level income to pay for it! But we *do* have excellent public
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
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          Ernest wrote:
          > I should have moved to Portland, which has
          > its numerous flaws too, but at least has
          > affordable housing and a highway network
          > consisting of more than Interstate 5 and
          > the (soon to be demolished to make way for
          > million-dollar waterfront condos) Alaskan
          > Way Viaduct.

          Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also
          have Seattle-level income to pay for it!

          But we *do* have excellent public transportation... Which you need
          because the streets are really overburdened, narrow, old, etc... at
          least near the center of town.... and pretty good libraries. Central
          library has the most wonderful collection of old books! One summer I
          followed a mythopoeic trail of authors (before I knew
          what "mythopoeic" was) through those old tomes which included George
          McDonald and Charles Williams and a bunch of others I don't recall
          now.

          God bless! Tinidril
          http://www.xanga.com/tinidril
        • David S Bratman
          ... Of course Tolkien had comments on this subject. For instance, in Letter 181, comparing England to the pre-Scouring Shire: I would not say that we had to
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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            At 03:46 PM 3/1/2003 -0700, Jane wrote:

            >Well, we could try to imagine Tolkien's reaction to these boondoggles.
            >Would the fact that in San Francisco and Seattle people are actually
            >removing superhighways please him? Or would he be too disgusted by the
            >whole nonsense to care? I don't know whether Tolkien ever expressed his
            >opinion of superhighways or not, but I'll bet he didn't care for them, and
            >I'll also bet that someone on this list knows whether or not he ever
            >commented in writing on the topic.

            Of course Tolkien had comments on this subject. For instance, in Letter
            181, comparing England to the pre-Scouring Shire:

            "I would not say that we had to suffer the malice of Sharkey and his
            Ruffians here. Though the spirit of Isengard, if not of Mordor, is of
            course always cropping up. The present design of destroying Oxford in
            order to accommodate motor-cars is a case."

            The "present design" to which he was referring to was a plan to run a new
            highway through the beautiful Christ Church meadows south of central
            Oxford. Tolkien was totally opposed; so were a lot of other people; and it
            was never built. But it's worth noting that the only alternative presented
            at the time was the status quo: constantly clogged traffic jams in central
            Oxford itself. Only a few years earlier he complained in Letter 135 that
            he had decided to move:

            "This charming house has become uninhabitable -- unsleepable-in,
            unworkable-in, rocked, racked with noise, and drenched with fumes. Such is
            modern life. Mordor in our midst."

            And that was the result of traffic going past his front door that the
            meadows highway would have relieved. Ironic, isn't it? When I first
            visited Oxford some 25 years ago the traffic situation was pretty much
            unchanged from when Tolkien wrote in the '50s, and still very bad. Since
            then it's improved somewhat, due to planning more intelligent than the
            meadows highway design.

            I don't recall anything about Tolkien cheering when various ugly modern
            constructions were torn down, but not much of that was yet being done in
            his day. He certainly had a lot of complaints about new construction going
            up, though. Somewhere in Carpenter's biography is a reference to Tolkien
            moaning "There goes the last of England's arable" whenever he saw new
            buildings replacing a field. He owned a car during the 1930s, but after
            World War II decided not to do so again, largely out of principle. (Though
            he was perfectly willing to ride in other people's cars.)

            - David Bratman
          • Ernest Tomlinson
            ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 9:39 PM Subject: [mythsoc] Seattle stinks ... Well, the few people
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <tinidril@...>
              To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 9:39 PM
              Subject: [mythsoc] Seattle stinks


              > Ernest wrote:
              > > I should have moved to Portland, which has
              > > its numerous flaws too, but at least has
              > > affordable housing and a highway network
              > > consisting of more than Interstate 5 and
              > > the (soon to be demolished to make way for
              > > million-dollar waterfront condos) Alaskan
              > > Way Viaduct.
              >
              > Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also
              > have Seattle-level income to pay for it!

              Well, the few people I know in Portland pay considerably less for housing
              than I and most people I know here...although it's debatable whether, say,
              the Sellwood neighborhood is really Portland. I think that it's probably
              easier to get away with living some distance from the Portland city center
              because there are more options for getting into town than (the Seattle
              equivalent of) slogging your way down crowded I-5 or even more crowded
              I-405. I drive to work at 5:30 to 6:30 in the morning, depending, and
              already by the time the southbound commute from Snohomish County down I-5 is
              stop-and-go. By 7 am it's a parking lot.

              The biggest downside to Portland at least at the moment is that it's still
              got the highest unemployment in the country, or near to it. But Seattle
              isn't much better.

              Ernest.
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