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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Seattle stinks

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  • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
    I lived in San Francisco a number of years before the earthquake and avoided the waterfront as it was dank and ugly. Now I enjoy driving along the Embarcadero,
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
      I lived in San Francisco a number of years before the earthquake and
      avoided the waterfront as it was dank and ugly. Now I enjoy driving
      along the Embarcadero, now a boulevard, which is sunny and shows off the
      old wharfs, water, and views wonderfully. I wouldn't mind living in that
      area of the city. May Seattle see as wonderful a change in environment.

      Mythically yours,
      Lisa

      David S. Bratman wrote:

      >Ugly as the condos may be, they can't be any more ugly and disfiguring than
      >the Viaduct, and nowhere near as dangerous. I'm pleased to hear they're
      >getting rid of it. I've always avoided that thing, because I didn't want
      >to be on it when a major earthquake came. San Francisco used to have an
      >equally disfiguring and view-blocking waterfront elevated highway, the
      >Embarcadero Freeway. It was torn down after the 1989 earthquake, despite
      >being little-damaged, and _everybody_ cheered.
      >
      >
      >
    • Ernest Tomlinson
      ... From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Seattle
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Lisa Deutsch Harrigan" <lisa@...>
        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:24 AM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Seattle stinks


        > I lived in San Francisco a number of years before the earthquake and
        > avoided the waterfront as it was dank and ugly. Now I enjoy driving
        > along the Embarcadero, now a boulevard, which is sunny and shows off the
        > old wharfs, water, and views wonderfully. I wouldn't mind living in that
        > area of the city.

        The trouble is, you can't, unless you're filthy rich. And that is whom the
        destruction of the Alaskan Way Viaduct will benefit--the filthy rich. Not
        being filthy rich, the Viaduct is for me the only good alternative to
        ploughing through downtown traffic on my way from Ballard or Fremont to the
        South. Also, there's no better view of Seattle to be had than from the
        northbound deck of the Viaduct. Yes, the Viaduct is old and liable to
        earthquake damage, but why not simply _repair_ it? That must be cheaper
        than the ludicrous notion of wrecking it and replacing it with a tunnel
        _under_ Alaskan Way, a notion that puts the lie to all of the developers'
        fits over the Viaduct's unsafety: it's all fill under Alaskan Way, and a
        tunnel through it isn't going to be any more earthquake-safe than the top of
        the Viaduct.

        No, the only people who really care about pulling down the Viaduct are
        wealthy developers slavering to get their hands on the last bit of
        waterfront land in Seattle. They talk a line about "revitalizing the
        waterfront"--as if people like me are going to be able to afford even to
        shop there! This boondoggle going to cost billions, disrupt downtown
        traffic for years, and result in just another downtown tourist trap to be
        got through on the way to something actually worth seeing or doing in
        Seattle.

        Ernest.
      • Stolzi@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/1/2003 12:44:44 PM Central Standard Time, ... Sounds like the Big Dig in Boston - how long has =that= been going on? But I m afraid
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
          In a message dated 3/1/2003 12:44:44 PM Central Standard Time,
          thiophene@... writes:


          > This boondoggle going to cost billions, disrupt downtown
          > traffic for years,

          Sounds like the "Big Dig" in Boston - how long has =that= been going on?

          But I'm afraid we're straying offtopic, unless one could consider these as
          boondoggles of, ahem, MYTHIC proportions :)

          Diamond Proudbrook



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David S Bratman
          ... I can think of a few as good, including some that don t require one to be in a moving car to enjoy them. Some of these also are not themselves unsightly.
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
            At 10:37 AM 3/1/2003 -0800, Ernest wrote:

            >Also, there's no better view of Seattle to be had than from the
            >northbound deck of the Viaduct.

            I can think of a few as good, including some that don't require one to be
            in a moving car to enjoy them. Some of these also are not themselves
            unsightly. Duwamish Head, just to name one. Ever been out
            there? Unfortunately much of its view of Seattle is blocked by ... the
            Viaduct.


            > Yes, the Viaduct is old and liable to
            >earthquake damage, but why not simply _repair_ it? That must be cheaper
            >than the ludicrous notion of wrecking it and replacing it with a tunnel
            >_under_ Alaskan Way, a notion that puts the lie to all of the developers'
            >fits over the Viaduct's unsafety: it's all fill under Alaskan Way, and a
            >tunnel through it isn't going to be any more earthquake-safe than the top of
            >the Viaduct.

            That depends entirely on how the tunnel is built. It's not the ground that
            makes construction earthquake-unsafe, it's how you build in that
            ground. The Viaduct is not in disrepair in some way that could be fixed
            for less money than building something new: it is unsafe in original
            construction down to its foundations. This was already well-known when I
            was living there, 20 years ago, and it's long past time to do something
            about it. It couldn't be "repaired" without tearing it down to those
            foundations and rebuilding it from scratch. Which is what they're going to
            do, only the new version will be less unsightly.

            I love it when ignorant amateurs complain that the professionals don't know
            what they're doing.

            - David Bratman
          • Jane Bigelow
            ... Sounds like the Big Dig in Boston - how long has =that= been going on? But I m afraid we re straying offtopic, unless one could consider these as
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
              > This boondoggle going to cost billions, disrupt downtown
              > traffic for years,

              Sounds like the "Big Dig" in Boston - how long has =that= been going on?

              But I'm afraid we're straying offtopic, unless one could consider these as
              boondoggles of, ahem, MYTHIC proportions :)

              Diamond Proudbrook

              Ernest and Mary,

              Well, we could try to imagine Tolkien's reaction to these boondoggles.
              Would the fact that in San Francisco and Seattle people are actually
              removing superhighways please him? Or would he be too disgusted by the
              whole nonsense to care? I don't know whether Tolkien ever expressed his
              opinion of superhighways or not, but I'll bet he didn't care for them, and
              I'll also bet that someone on this list knows whether or not he ever
              commented in writing on the topic.

              Jane
            • Yvan <tinidril@yahoo.com>
              ... Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also have Seattle-level income to pay for it! But we *do* have excellent public
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
                Ernest wrote:
                > I should have moved to Portland, which has
                > its numerous flaws too, but at least has
                > affordable housing and a highway network
                > consisting of more than Interstate 5 and
                > the (soon to be demolished to make way for
                > million-dollar waterfront condos) Alaskan
                > Way Viaduct.

                Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also
                have Seattle-level income to pay for it!

                But we *do* have excellent public transportation... Which you need
                because the streets are really overburdened, narrow, old, etc... at
                least near the center of town.... and pretty good libraries. Central
                library has the most wonderful collection of old books! One summer I
                followed a mythopoeic trail of authors (before I knew
                what "mythopoeic" was) through those old tomes which included George
                McDonald and Charles Williams and a bunch of others I don't recall
                now.

                God bless! Tinidril
                http://www.xanga.com/tinidril
              • David S Bratman
                ... Of course Tolkien had comments on this subject. For instance, in Letter 181, comparing England to the pre-Scouring Shire: I would not say that we had to
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
                  At 03:46 PM 3/1/2003 -0700, Jane wrote:

                  >Well, we could try to imagine Tolkien's reaction to these boondoggles.
                  >Would the fact that in San Francisco and Seattle people are actually
                  >removing superhighways please him? Or would he be too disgusted by the
                  >whole nonsense to care? I don't know whether Tolkien ever expressed his
                  >opinion of superhighways or not, but I'll bet he didn't care for them, and
                  >I'll also bet that someone on this list knows whether or not he ever
                  >commented in writing on the topic.

                  Of course Tolkien had comments on this subject. For instance, in Letter
                  181, comparing England to the pre-Scouring Shire:

                  "I would not say that we had to suffer the malice of Sharkey and his
                  Ruffians here. Though the spirit of Isengard, if not of Mordor, is of
                  course always cropping up. The present design of destroying Oxford in
                  order to accommodate motor-cars is a case."

                  The "present design" to which he was referring to was a plan to run a new
                  highway through the beautiful Christ Church meadows south of central
                  Oxford. Tolkien was totally opposed; so were a lot of other people; and it
                  was never built. But it's worth noting that the only alternative presented
                  at the time was the status quo: constantly clogged traffic jams in central
                  Oxford itself. Only a few years earlier he complained in Letter 135 that
                  he had decided to move:

                  "This charming house has become uninhabitable -- unsleepable-in,
                  unworkable-in, rocked, racked with noise, and drenched with fumes. Such is
                  modern life. Mordor in our midst."

                  And that was the result of traffic going past his front door that the
                  meadows highway would have relieved. Ironic, isn't it? When I first
                  visited Oxford some 25 years ago the traffic situation was pretty much
                  unchanged from when Tolkien wrote in the '50s, and still very bad. Since
                  then it's improved somewhat, due to planning more intelligent than the
                  meadows highway design.

                  I don't recall anything about Tolkien cheering when various ugly modern
                  constructions were torn down, but not much of that was yet being done in
                  his day. He certainly had a lot of complaints about new construction going
                  up, though. Somewhere in Carpenter's biography is a reference to Tolkien
                  moaning "There goes the last of England's arable" whenever he saw new
                  buildings replacing a field. He owned a car during the 1930s, but after
                  World War II decided not to do so again, largely out of principle. (Though
                  he was perfectly willing to ride in other people's cars.)

                  - David Bratman
                • Ernest Tomlinson
                  ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 9:39 PM Subject: [mythsoc] Seattle stinks ... Well, the few people
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <tinidril@...>
                    To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 9:39 PM
                    Subject: [mythsoc] Seattle stinks


                    > Ernest wrote:
                    > > I should have moved to Portland, which has
                    > > its numerous flaws too, but at least has
                    > > affordable housing and a highway network
                    > > consisting of more than Interstate 5 and
                    > > the (soon to be demolished to make way for
                    > > million-dollar waterfront condos) Alaskan
                    > > Way Viaduct.
                    >
                    > Portland?... have affordable housing?? hahahahaha... only if you also
                    > have Seattle-level income to pay for it!

                    Well, the few people I know in Portland pay considerably less for housing
                    than I and most people I know here...although it's debatable whether, say,
                    the Sellwood neighborhood is really Portland. I think that it's probably
                    easier to get away with living some distance from the Portland city center
                    because there are more options for getting into town than (the Seattle
                    equivalent of) slogging your way down crowded I-5 or even more crowded
                    I-405. I drive to work at 5:30 to 6:30 in the morning, depending, and
                    already by the time the southbound commute from Snohomish County down I-5 is
                    stop-and-go. By 7 am it's a parking lot.

                    The biggest downside to Portland at least at the moment is that it's still
                    got the highest unemployment in the country, or near to it. But Seattle
                    isn't much better.

                    Ernest.
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