Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Zhivago / Fionavar / Green Angel Tower WAS Re: [mythsoc] Not finishing books, was famfic

Expand Messages
  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    Let s see.... I think that _Dr Zhivago_ was one of my dad s favorite books, to the point that he felt of the movie as I do of hte LOTR movies.. how can they
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 28, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Let's see.... I think that _Dr Zhivago_ was one of my dad's favorite
      books, to the point that he felt of the movie as I do of hte LOTR movies..
      how can they possibly... ? Except that he felt they succeeded (with the
      movie). From the descriptions of the sex in _Tigana_ I suspect I won't
      even realize they are sex scenes. lol I haven't read _Dr Zhivago_,
      myself.

      As for the cliches... I will have to read the Fionavar books now. What is
      the difference between cliches and their opposite? complement? As in when
      we enjoy a book's use of a theme... Arthurian or whatever. That was one of
      my complaints with the Green Angel Tower books... the world was so close to
      mythical Europe. The various nations (names, religions, etc.) could almost
      be shadow-copies of different European cultures.

      Of course my books are already put away somewhere, but I can dig them out
      if anyone wants to discuss this. I did finally get over it, and feel that
      Tad Williams really did produce a work of genius. ("The story that ate my
      life," indeed! lol)

      Lizzie Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
    • Ernest Tomlinson
      ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano To: Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:24 AM Subject: Zhivago /
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 3, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>
        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:24 AM
        Subject: Zhivago / Fionavar / Green Angel Tower WAS Re: [mythsoc] Not
        finishing books, was famfic


        > Let's see.... I think that _Dr Zhivago_ was one of my dad's favorite
        > books, to the point that he felt of the movie as I do of hte LOTR movies..
        > how can they possibly... ? Except that he felt they succeeded (with the
        > movie).

        I haven't read the Pasternak novel myself, although it's on my list (so I
        should get to it sometime in 2007, at the rate I'm going.) Ebert calls it
        dated and probably he's right.

        > From the descriptions of the sex in _Tigana_ I suspect I won't
        > even realize they are sex scenes.

        Oh, you'll know. Whether they're _sexy_ sex scenes is another question
        entirely. I must admit that, except in weak moments, I'm of the school that
        prefers sex scenes to read something like this: "Afterwards..."

        > As for the cliches... I will have to read the Fionavar books now. What is
        > the difference between cliches and their opposite? complement?

        That is an excellent question. People like me toss "cliche" around as a
        pejorative without thinking too much about what it means. One can start by
        saying that a cliche is a literary or filmic device too often repeated, but
        certainly _repetition_ isn't all that makes a cliche; otherwise every trick
        of the trade would be cliched. I think what makes a cliche is its
        superficiality. A cliche always is a shortcut to conveying an moral or
        emotional depth that the author or filmmaker is either too lazy or not
        competent enough to get across in a better way. Take, for example, the
        device of setting an emotional confrontation between two lovers in a sudden
        rainstorm. We're supposed to accept that rain as a substitute for the
        writing or acting that ought to be telling us about the lovers' stormy
        emotions.

        If cliches have an opposite, it is in writing and cinema that seems innocent
        and even trivial on the surface yet reveals great depths on inspection and
        rereading. To pick an example from (what else?) _The Lord of the Rings_,
        take the scene on Weathertop when Strider, asked to pass the time by singing
        a song or reading a poem, retells part of the Lay of Leithian, Beren's and
        Luthien's story. On the surface it's just another story of olden times,
        like so many others in the LotR, but the attentive reader notices Strider's
        absorption in his own storytelling, and only after reading the whole story
        do we realize that it was _his_ story he was telling. There's hidden depth
        for you!

        > That was one of
        > my complaints with the Green Angel Tower books... the world was so close
        to
        > mythical Europe. The various nations (names, religions, etc.) could
        almost
        > be shadow-copies of different European cultures.

        Yup. Like Turtledove's thinly disguised gloss on Byzantine Greece in the
        Misplaced Legion stories, or Guy Kay's gloss on various European cultures in
        his books, or Jo Walton's (sorry, Jo) gloss on post-Roman Britain in _The
        King's Peace_. Some people lap that stuff up, and I suppose there's a
        melancholy pleasure to be derived from picking out the correspondences, but
        I think it's a sign either of laziness or cowardice: the author either
        couldn't think up a fully realized fictional universe of his own so had to
        turn to someone else's, or the author actually wanted to say something about
        the real Christianize Britain (or whatever) but felt that it was safer to
        allegorize and disguise the real intent of the story.

        Cheers,

        Ernest.
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        I haven t read the Pasternak novel myself, although it s on my list (so I should get to it sometime in 2007, at the rate I m going.) Ebert calls it dated and
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 4, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          I haven't read the Pasternak novel myself, although it's on my list (so I
          should get to it sometime in 2007, at the rate I'm going.) Ebert calls it
          dated and probably he's right. >>

          But we can still enjoy things that are "dated." In fact we can, in some
          cases and I"m not saying this is one, use them to recall ourselves to our
          senses.

          >Oh, you'll know. Whether they're _sexy_ sex scenes is another question
          entirely. I must admit that, except in weak moments, I'm of the school that
          prefers sex scenes to read something like this: "Afterwards..." >

          Depends. Sometimes I like the "afterwards" or even the .... realizes
          chapters later that the two had become closer than just friends. Other
          times, well.... I like the ones that burn through my nervous system,
          especially unexpectedly. Like Daniel Keyes Moran's one scene in _The Last
          Dancer_. (This may be one of the books he doesn't use his middle name, I
          can't recall).

          > That is an excellent question. People like me toss "cliche" around as a
          pejorative without thinking too much about what it means. One can start by
          saying that a cliche is a literary or filmic device too often repeated, but
          certainly _repetition_ isn't all that makes a cliche; otherwise every trick
          of the trade would be cliched. I think what makes a cliche is its
          superficiality. A cliche always is a shortcut to conveying an moral or
          emotional depth that the author or filmmaker is either too lazy or not
          competent enough to get across in a better way. >

          OK. Or something we've just heard too often and want to scream. Like,
          (when a longsword is in use), "split like a ripe melon".

          << Take, for example, the device of setting an emotional confrontation
          between two lovers in a sudden rainstorm. We're supposed to accept that
          rain as a substitute for the writing or acting that ought to be telling us
          about the lovers' stormy
          emotions. >

          Oh. And I thought it was just an overdose of sensory stimuli. The rain
          and the smell of the weather I mean. Like mood music. Then again, there
          is a storm scene in Dirty Dancing.

          << If cliches have an opposite, it is in writing and cinema that seems
          innocent and even trivial on the surface yet reveals great depths on
          inspection and rereading. To pick an example from (what else?) _The Lord of
          the Rings_, take the scene on Weathertop when Strider, asked to pass the
          time by singing a song or reading a poem, retells part of the Lay of
          Leithian, Beren's and Luthien's story. On the surface it's just another
          story of olden times, like so many others in the LotR, but the attentive
          reader notices Strider's absorption in his own storytelling, and only after
          reading the whole story do we realize that it was _his_ story he was
          telling. There's hidden depth for you! >>

          Cool, I will have to go look at that. I like these double-entendres.

          > Yup. Like Turtledove's thinly disguised gloss on Byzantine Greece in the
          Misplaced Legion stories, or Guy Kay's gloss on various European cultures
          in his books, or Jo Walton's (sorry, Jo) gloss on post-Roman Britain in
          _The King's Peace_. Some people lap that stuff up, and I suppose there's a
          melancholy pleasure to be derived from picking out the correspondences, but
          I think it's a sign either of laziness or cowardice: t he author either
          couldn't think up a fully realized fictional universe of his own so had to
          turn to someone else's, or the author actually wanted to say something
          about the real Christianize Britain (or whatever) but felt that it was
          safer to allegorize and disguise the real intent of the story. >

          Or the matiere (is that the right word?) is just so beyond popular, it is
          irresistable and we never tire of it. I don't think that is always a
          failure. Sometimes the failure is in execution. Or just a matter of not
          the right reader for the book. Was true in Chretien de Troye's day and
          it's true in ours.

          Lizzie Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.