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  • spark654@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/4/03 9:53:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It is too late for Leiber. BTW, as a non-reader, some things really jarred me in TTT. One in
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 4, 2003
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      In a message dated 1/4/03 9:53:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      mythsoc@yahoogroups.com writes:


      > Moorcock and Leiber should have themselves screened for Alzheimer's before
      > it's too late.
      >
      >

      It is too late for Leiber.

      BTW, as a non-reader, some things really jarred me in TTT. One in
      particular: outside the gates of Mordor, the whole slipping-and falling
      scene. The soldiers approach, and Frodo pulls his cape over them. I
      couldn't understand why the soldiers didn't just kick the fake-looking
      rock/cape (I didn't know it was an elven cape until after--don't film makers
      know this is bad writing, to tell us the reason something works ((magic))
      AFTER it happens?). I couldn't understand why the soldiers didn't see the
      two falling down, then suddenly disappearing under the "rock"-- if the pair
      slid down out of visual range and hid under the cape before the soldiers came
      into their vicinity, that should have been made more clear.

      Sparkdog


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ernest S. Tomlinson
      ... Ugh. A bad scene, but entirely consistent with Jackson s penchant for exaggerating very trivial aspects of the story. Thus the Council of Elrond doesn t
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 5, 2003
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        On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:57:06 EST, spark654@... said:

        > BTW, as a non-reader, some things really jarred me in TTT. One in
        > particular: outside the gates of Mordor, the whole slipping-and falling
        > scene.

        Ugh. A bad scene, but entirely consistent with Jackson's penchant for
        exaggerating very trivial aspects of the story. Thus the Council of
        Elrond doesn't merely produce disagreement, but a brawl; the "Watcher in
        the Water" doesn't merely grab at Frodo, but seizes him and whirls him
        about in the air for a good minute; Pippin doesn't merely throw a rock
        into a well in Moria, but a whole suit of armor (and part of the well,
        too); throughout, Frodo doesn't merely feel the tug of the Ring, but his
        eyes glaze over, a vacant expression occupies his face, and he'd probably
        even drool (except even a guy like Jackson has his limits.)

        Ernest.
        --
        Ernest S. Tomlinson
        thiophene@...
      • David S Bratman
        ... In the second film, I would cite as prominent examples of this penchant: 1) Treebeard. In the book he starts off by apologizing for having momentarily
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 5, 2003
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          At 03:39 PM 1/5/2003 -0800, Ernest S. Tomlinson wrote:

          >Ugh. A bad scene, but entirely consistent with Jackson's penchant for
          >exaggerating very trivial aspects of the story.

          In the second film, I would cite as prominent examples of this penchant:
          1) Treebeard. In the book he starts off by apologizing for having
          momentarily mistaken Merry and Pippin for Orcs. In the film, he spends
          virtually the whole running time suspecting them of being Orcs.
          2) Sam. In the book he shows occasional signs of suspicion and
          cantankerousness; in the film he becomes a vehemently unpleasant and
          disagreeable character whom I wouldn't want to take an afternoon's stroll
          with, let alone a 6-month quest.

          The "running, jumping, and falling over" bridge scene in the first film is
          barely recognizable as an utter distortion and exaggeration of a reference
          in the book (it's a paragraph after Aragorn mentions Queen Beruthiel) to
          the company jumping over a 7-foot gap earlier in Moria. And I needn't even
          mention the cave troll.

          >the "Watcher in
          >the Water" doesn't merely grab at Frodo, but seizes him and whirls him
          >about in the air for a good minute;

          It's 48 seconds, to be exact, from the moment the Watcher attacks Frodo
          until his rescue, and a total of 72 seconds from the attack until the
          Watcher slams the doors. You can read the entire scene from the book
          _aloud_ in that amount of time.

          >Pippin doesn't merely throw a rock
          >into a well in Moria, but a whole suit of armor (and part of the well,
          >too);

          It takes an aching 34 seconds for the sound to stop echoing; but it's only
          16 seconds after that (a whole ten pages in the book) until the first
          "Doom" sounds come rumbling.

          - David Bratman
        • disneylogic <disneylogic@yahoo.com>
          On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:23:20 -0800 David S Bratman wrote in part: [snip] ... Worse, I think is a continuity flaw in the film. At some
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 13, 2003
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            On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:23:20 -0800 David S Bratman
            <dbratman@...> wrote in part:

            [snip]

            >1) Treebeard. In the book he starts off by apologizing for having
            >momentarily mistaken Merry and Pippin for Orcs. In the film, he
            >spends virtually the whole running time suspecting them of being
            >Orcs.

            Worse, I think is a continuity flaw in the film. At some point
            when Treebeard is carrying Merry and Pippin out of Fangorn, he
            says Gandalf asked him to look out for them, as if Treebeard
            were another Strider-type, but in Fangorn instead of Bree. This
            comes out of nowhere.

            [snip]

            >>the "Watcher in
            >>the Water" doesn't merely grab at Frodo, but seizes him and
            >>whirls him about in the air for a good minute;

            >It's 48 seconds, to be exact, from the moment the Watcher attacks
            >Frodo until his rescue, and a total of 72 seconds from the attack
            >until the Watcher slams the doors. You can read the entire scene
            >from the book _aloud_ in that amount of time.

            Well, surely, Jackson dwells on these scenes because they can be
            done well in the visual medium.

            >>Pippin doesn't merely throw a rock
            >>into a well in Moria, but a whole suit of armor (and part of the
            >>well, too);

            >It takes an aching 34 seconds for the sound to stop echoing;
            >but it's only 16 seconds after that (a whole ten pages in the book)
            >until the first "Doom" sounds come rumbling.

            Again, I think this compression raises tension in the movie, a
            compression which has to do more with the medium than any particular
            emphasis Jackson is placing. The scene where Pippin removes the
            ring is a small play-within-a-play about human greed and its
            consequences. It also shows weakness in the Gandalf the Grey
            character. Gandalf seems understanding of how the Baggins can make
            poor choices in the grand scheme of things, but Pippin can't get
            away with the consequences of wanting a small ring without
            Gandalf lecturing him and putting him down. This is not the first
            time, either. He does it when Pippin expresses some frustration at
            the failure to open the Moria gate. And THAT _is_ in the book.

            The Gandalf character's weakness is amplified in Jackson's FOTR. In
            the book it's Aragorn who fears Moria. The book Gandalf is
            steadfast and willing to take whatever course seems best without
            reservation. But these weaknesses are based upon the story: Both
            in book and movie, doesn't Gandalf the Grey say to Frodo that he
            had little to do with Bilbo's adventure to the Misty Mountains?
            That's clearly false. Sure, in the movie it's on his wagon, and in
            the book it's one of the things said in the _long_ scenes at Bag End.
            Maybe it's just a way of bringing back the meaning of the cut
            Gildar lines "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards...".

            If anything, Jackson's elves are _too_ good and noble. There
            doesn't seem to be anything to counterpoint their favorable
            features, like Frodo's rejoinder to the last statement "Do you
            ask advice of elves, for they will say both yes and no," apart
            perhaps for Legolas' willingness to terminate Eomir after he
            threatens Gimli when they are surrounded by the Riders of Rohan.

            --Jan Theodore Galkowski.
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