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Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1089

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  • jamcconney@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/31/2002 10:41:48 PM Central Standard Time, ... We-e-ell, it s a pretty broad time--ranging from subRoman to late medieval--and that s not
    Message 1 of 31 , Dec 31, 2002
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      In a message dated 12/31/2002 10:41:48 PM Central Standard Time,
      thiophene@... writes:

      > Arthur, even if
      > he is a complete fiction, is a fiction located in a certain time and place
      > to which a veracious Arthurian story ought to be faithful), but at the very
      > least a new Arthurian tale should be true to the canon.
      >
      We-e-ell, it's a pretty broad time--ranging from subRoman to late
      medieval--and that's not counting some later works that place him even
      earlier or later than that. And what constitutes the canon is similarly up
      for grabs--we're still exploring the early Welsh tradition (very different in
      some respects from Malory et al) and, even more recently, the Sarmation
      tradition is beginning to raise its head....

      Yes, I do agree with you, even when we're not agreed on the 'canon' we seem
      to know generally what it is and is not. On the other hand, some of the
      greatest additions to the legend are brilliant and may well, in time, become
      part of the canon themselves.

      Anne



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Davis
      Thanks everyone! John ... From: Darrell A. Martin To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob ... Hi:
      Message 31 of 31 , Mar 28, 2011
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        Thanks everyone!
         
        John
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob

         

        On 3/25/2011 9:25 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
        >
        >
        > On 25 March 2011 14:51, <aveeris523@... <mailto:aveeris523@...>>
        > wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 3/25/11 6:09:24 AM, john@...
        > <mailto:john@...> writes:
        >
        > Did any of the Free Peoples know about Shelob before Sam and
        > Frodo encountered her? Gandalf, perhaps, or Faramir since he
        > spent much time in Ithilien?
        >
        >
        > That's an interesting question John; the orcs certainly did! I'll
        > check _LOTR: A Reader's Companion_, Hammond & Scull.
        >
        >
        > My impression is that people had certainly known /about/ Shelob (hence
        > the name of the pass, the Pass of the Spider) but the specifics had been
        > forgotten, leaving it to simply 'have a bad name'. Unless I misremember,
        > there is somewhere a hint that Gandalf might have told Frodo more about
        > the pass and its name.
        >
        > /Troels

        Hi:

        Faramir told Frodo that when the name Cirith Ungol was brought up to the
        old loremasters, they were frightened by it and refused to discuss it.
        In the same conversation he mentioned that the young men of Gondor no
        longer ventured east of the Ithilien road.

        Clearly, among the old and learned the meaning of Cirith Ungol was still
        known, at the time of the War of the Ring. But the details were not
        discussed, and none of Faramir's generation had any experience of the pass.

        I think it is a bit of a stretch to think Frodo would have automatically
        translated "Cirith Ungol" to "mountain pass where one or more giant
        spiders currently live". Yes, he *could* have thought that, or suspected
        it (and perhaps he did). Regardless, however, Gollum was right when he
        said that if Master wanted to enter Mordor, he had to go some way, and
        that no way was safe; and Frodo was right when he rejected the idea of
        going back to the Black Gate and surrendering on the spot. Damn the
        spiders, full speed ahead.

        Darrell

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