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Re: [mythsoc] Shippey, France and probably other question

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  • alexeik@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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      In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:

      <<A sort of related question that I have long had would be does anyone
      know of anything written for the layperson about the fate of the
      Langue d'Oc? I dimly remember learning about France and its two
      languages and how Langue d'Oeuil (sp) won out.. but Languedoc was
      more than a place, more than a language, it was a whole culture. Has
      anyone treated with that (in English) the way we have treated with
      other great traditions, like Arthur and so on?
      >>

      The Langue d'Oc is still spoken today by hundreds of thousands of people in
      the southern third of France (as well as the Val d'Aran in Spain and parts of
      the Italian Alps), although it has no official standing and no public
      visibility, and the French government has long been trying to stamp it out as
      a worthless 'patois'. In modern discussions of language it's usually referred
      to as 'Occitan'. In spite of the official hostility many speakers of the
      language have been struggling to preserve it as a vehicle of high culture:
      many gifted writers produce works in Occitan, there's a weekly newspaper (_La
      Setmana_), and even a federation of private schools that teach entirely
      through the medium of Occitan (_Calandreta_); and in places like Gascony
      (especially the Béarn) it's still a very strong community language.
      Langue d'Oc began to lose out to Langue d'Oïl (_oïl_ being the way one
      said "yes" in Mediaeval French -- it has since evolved to _oui_) during the
      thirteenth century, when the bloody Albigensian Crusade established the
      political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the North over the South, under
      the guise of wiping out heresy. Occitan ceased to be a language with
      international prestige and faded into obscurity, although it remained the
      spoken language of most people in southern France until the nineteenth and
      twentieth centuries, when compulsory schooling attempted to make French the
      single, exclusive language of the entire population of France.
      Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
      Alexei
    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr. Anyway, is it
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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        In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        alexeik@... writes:

        > Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
        >
        Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr.
        Anyway, is it really Occitan? That's so exciting. I get EBLUL's Lesser Used
        Languages CONTACT publication, although I usually skim it and set it aside.
        I will pay closer attention in the future. Thank you so much, and I'll be
        rereading your post a few times today. Just the words above ooze troubador
        music to my ears...

        Lizzie the Flirt


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      • David S. Bratman
        I think technically langue d oc , Occitan , and Provencal (another name for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in practice
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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          I think technically "langue d'oc", "Occitan", and "Provencal" (another name
          for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in
          practice they're synonyms.

          I've seen a few 19th-century books printed in this language, but it's not
          common. France is traditionally very harsh on its linguistic/cultural
          minorities - ask the Bretons. In this it differs sharply from Spain, where
          Catalan, though certainly looked down upon by high Castillans, flourishes
          and many books in it - and some other minority tongues - are published.
          (That Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, is also the center of Spain's
          book-publishing industry doesn't hurt.)

          Catalan comes to my mind in connection with Occitan, because the written
          languages both look (to my eye) like crosses between French and Spanish -
          but totally different crosses, quite distinct from each other. No doubt
          Alexei can say more about that.

          - David Bratman
        • alexeik@aol.com
          In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote: Ieu parli la lenga d òc -- l ai appresa quora eri joine. :-) ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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            In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote:

            <<> Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)

            >

            Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?>>

            It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
            Alexei
          • ERATRIANO@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really? Not something you
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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              In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              alexeik@... writes:

              > It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
              >
              I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really?
              Not something you pick up in school over here, I suspect.

              I am so sorry I didn't get to that con this summer... you and Connie Willis,
              what a combination...

              Lizzie


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