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Re: [mythsoc] Shippey, France and probably other question

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  • ERATRIANO@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/12/2002 7:08:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes I realized within the first few pages that I NEED this other book. I don t mind review
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 12, 2002
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      In a message dated 11/12/2002 7:08:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      margdean@... writes:

      > You should definitely get his previous book, then (THE ROAD TO
      > MIDDLE-EARTH), since it is even more linguistically oriented than the
      > current one. A lot of it will look familiar, though; there is a great deal
      > of overlap between the two books.

      Yes I realized within the first few pages that I NEED this other book. I
      don't mind review material, I forget things so quickly anyway.

      BTW I spent the summer reading Tad Williams' Green Angel Tower books. For
      some reason it took me well into the second book before I wasn't
      uncomfortable with how "familiar" it all seemed. Rimmersgard and Hernystir
      and all that. Usually I love that sort of thing. I also found it
      interesting that it didn't seem like Williams ever revealed whether there
      "was anything behind" the Aedonite church.

      As for France, it sounds like I need to find Gillian Bradshaw's THE WOLF
      HUNT, reviewed in the May Mythprint. I think I have some Marie de France
      kicking around the house, but Gosh only knows where. Hiding with Chretien
      someplace I'm sure.

      AOL has been eating my mail lately, so I hope I get all the list posts.
      Guess I'll have to check in at the website now and then (as I did when I
      signed up, at least a little).

      Lizzie


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    • alexeik@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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        In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:

        <<A sort of related question that I have long had would be does anyone
        know of anything written for the layperson about the fate of the
        Langue d'Oc? I dimly remember learning about France and its two
        languages and how Langue d'Oeuil (sp) won out.. but Languedoc was
        more than a place, more than a language, it was a whole culture. Has
        anyone treated with that (in English) the way we have treated with
        other great traditions, like Arthur and so on?
        >>

        The Langue d'Oc is still spoken today by hundreds of thousands of people in
        the southern third of France (as well as the Val d'Aran in Spain and parts of
        the Italian Alps), although it has no official standing and no public
        visibility, and the French government has long been trying to stamp it out as
        a worthless 'patois'. In modern discussions of language it's usually referred
        to as 'Occitan'. In spite of the official hostility many speakers of the
        language have been struggling to preserve it as a vehicle of high culture:
        many gifted writers produce works in Occitan, there's a weekly newspaper (_La
        Setmana_), and even a federation of private schools that teach entirely
        through the medium of Occitan (_Calandreta_); and in places like Gascony
        (especially the Béarn) it's still a very strong community language.
        Langue d'Oc began to lose out to Langue d'Oïl (_oïl_ being the way one
        said "yes" in Mediaeval French -- it has since evolved to _oui_) during the
        thirteenth century, when the bloody Albigensian Crusade established the
        political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the North over the South, under
        the guise of wiping out heresy. Occitan ceased to be a language with
        international prestige and faded into obscurity, although it remained the
        spoken language of most people in southern France until the nineteenth and
        twentieth centuries, when compulsory schooling attempted to make French the
        single, exclusive language of the entire population of France.
        Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
        Alexei
      • ERATRIANO@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr. Anyway, is it
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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          In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          alexeik@... writes:

          > Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
          >
          Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr.
          Anyway, is it really Occitan? That's so exciting. I get EBLUL's Lesser Used
          Languages CONTACT publication, although I usually skim it and set it aside.
          I will pay closer attention in the future. Thank you so much, and I'll be
          rereading your post a few times today. Just the words above ooze troubador
          music to my ears...

          Lizzie the Flirt


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        • David S. Bratman
          I think technically langue d oc , Occitan , and Provencal (another name for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in practice
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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            I think technically "langue d'oc", "Occitan", and "Provencal" (another name
            for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in
            practice they're synonyms.

            I've seen a few 19th-century books printed in this language, but it's not
            common. France is traditionally very harsh on its linguistic/cultural
            minorities - ask the Bretons. In this it differs sharply from Spain, where
            Catalan, though certainly looked down upon by high Castillans, flourishes
            and many books in it - and some other minority tongues - are published.
            (That Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, is also the center of Spain's
            book-publishing industry doesn't hurt.)

            Catalan comes to my mind in connection with Occitan, because the written
            languages both look (to my eye) like crosses between French and Spanish -
            but totally different crosses, quite distinct from each other. No doubt
            Alexei can say more about that.

            - David Bratman
          • alexeik@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote: Ieu parli la lenga d òc -- l ai appresa quora eri joine. :-) ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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              In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote:

              <<> Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)

              >

              Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?>>

              It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
              Alexei
            • ERATRIANO@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really? Not something you
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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                In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                alexeik@... writes:

                > It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
                >
                I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really?
                Not something you pick up in school over here, I suspect.

                I am so sorry I didn't get to that con this summer... you and Connie Willis,
                what a combination...

                Lizzie


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