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Shippey, France and probably other question

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  • lizziewriter
    Hi all, I m back, probably just in time for more movie chat ... I am finally reading the Shippey Tolkien book, the Author of the Century one, and am enjoying
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 12, 2002
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      Hi all, I'm back, probably just in time for more movie chat ...

      I am finally reading the Shippey Tolkien book, the Author of the
      Century one, and am enjoying it as much as I thought, except that I
      don't get to read for very long usually. Anyway, now I of course
      have to get his previous book as well. My favorite parts are the
      language tie-ins, the whole concept of Middle Earth as sort of
      English-folklore-could-have-been. And the language stuff.

      A sort of related question that I have long had would be does anyone
      know of anything written for the layperson about the fate of the
      Langue d'Oc? I dimly remember learning about France and its two
      languages and how Langue d'Oeuil (sp) won out.. but Languedoc was
      more than a place, more than a language, it was a whole culture. Has
      anyone treated with that (in English) the way we have treated with
      other great traditions, like Arthur and so on?

      just wondering,
      I'll try to mostly be quiet,

      Lizzie
    • Margaret Dean
      ... You should definitely get his previous book, then (THE ROAD TO MIDDLE-EARTH), since it is even more linguistically oriented than the current one. A lot of
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 12, 2002
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        lizziewriter wrote:
        >
        > Hi all, I'm back, probably just in time for more movie chat ...
        >
        > I am finally reading the Shippey Tolkien book, the Author of the
        > Century one, and am enjoying it as much as I thought, except that I
        > don't get to read for very long usually. Anyway, now I of course
        > have to get his previous book as well. My favorite parts are the
        > language tie-ins, the whole concept of Middle Earth as sort of
        > English-folklore-could-have-been. And the language stuff.

        You should definitely get his previous book, then (THE ROAD TO
        MIDDLE-EARTH), since it is even more linguistically oriented than
        the current one. A lot of it will look familiar, though; there
        is a great deal of overlap between the two books.


        --Margaret Dean
        <margdean@...>
      • ERATRIANO@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/12/2002 7:08:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes I realized within the first few pages that I NEED this other book. I don t mind review
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 12, 2002
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          In a message dated 11/12/2002 7:08:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          margdean@... writes:

          > You should definitely get his previous book, then (THE ROAD TO
          > MIDDLE-EARTH), since it is even more linguistically oriented than the
          > current one. A lot of it will look familiar, though; there is a great deal
          > of overlap between the two books.

          Yes I realized within the first few pages that I NEED this other book. I
          don't mind review material, I forget things so quickly anyway.

          BTW I spent the summer reading Tad Williams' Green Angel Tower books. For
          some reason it took me well into the second book before I wasn't
          uncomfortable with how "familiar" it all seemed. Rimmersgard and Hernystir
          and all that. Usually I love that sort of thing. I also found it
          interesting that it didn't seem like Williams ever revealed whether there
          "was anything behind" the Aedonite church.

          As for France, it sounds like I need to find Gillian Bradshaw's THE WOLF
          HUNT, reviewed in the May Mythprint. I think I have some Marie de France
          kicking around the house, but Gosh only knows where. Hiding with Chretien
          someplace I'm sure.

          AOL has been eating my mail lately, so I hope I get all the list posts.
          Guess I'll have to check in at the website now and then (as I did when I
          signed up, at least a little).

          Lizzie


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        • alexeik@aol.com
          In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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            In a message dated 11/12/2 9:43:06 PM, Lizzie wrote:

            <<A sort of related question that I have long had would be does anyone
            know of anything written for the layperson about the fate of the
            Langue d'Oc? I dimly remember learning about France and its two
            languages and how Langue d'Oeuil (sp) won out.. but Languedoc was
            more than a place, more than a language, it was a whole culture. Has
            anyone treated with that (in English) the way we have treated with
            other great traditions, like Arthur and so on?
            >>

            The Langue d'Oc is still spoken today by hundreds of thousands of people in
            the southern third of France (as well as the Val d'Aran in Spain and parts of
            the Italian Alps), although it has no official standing and no public
            visibility, and the French government has long been trying to stamp it out as
            a worthless 'patois'. In modern discussions of language it's usually referred
            to as 'Occitan'. In spite of the official hostility many speakers of the
            language have been struggling to preserve it as a vehicle of high culture:
            many gifted writers produce works in Occitan, there's a weekly newspaper (_La
            Setmana_), and even a federation of private schools that teach entirely
            through the medium of Occitan (_Calandreta_); and in places like Gascony
            (especially the Béarn) it's still a very strong community language.
            Langue d'Oc began to lose out to Langue d'Oïl (_oïl_ being the way one
            said "yes" in Mediaeval French -- it has since evolved to _oui_) during the
            thirteenth century, when the bloody Albigensian Crusade established the
            political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the North over the South, under
            the guise of wiping out heresy. Occitan ceased to be a language with
            international prestige and faded into obscurity, although it remained the
            spoken language of most people in southern France until the nineteenth and
            twentieth centuries, when compulsory schooling attempted to make French the
            single, exclusive language of the entire population of France.
            Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
            Alexei
          • ERATRIANO@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr. Anyway, is it
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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              In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              alexeik@... writes:

              > Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)
              >
              Ooh what does that mean, Alexei? Mmmm.... your posts always make me purr.
              Anyway, is it really Occitan? That's so exciting. I get EBLUL's Lesser Used
              Languages CONTACT publication, although I usually skim it and set it aside.
              I will pay closer attention in the future. Thank you so much, and I'll be
              rereading your post a few times today. Just the words above ooze troubador
              music to my ears...

              Lizzie the Flirt


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            • David S. Bratman
              I think technically langue d oc , Occitan , and Provencal (another name for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in practice
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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                I think technically "langue d'oc", "Occitan", and "Provencal" (another name
                for the same language/region) mean slightly different things, but in
                practice they're synonyms.

                I've seen a few 19th-century books printed in this language, but it's not
                common. France is traditionally very harsh on its linguistic/cultural
                minorities - ask the Bretons. In this it differs sharply from Spain, where
                Catalan, though certainly looked down upon by high Castillans, flourishes
                and many books in it - and some other minority tongues - are published.
                (That Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, is also the center of Spain's
                book-publishing industry doesn't hurt.)

                Catalan comes to my mind in connection with Occitan, because the written
                languages both look (to my eye) like crosses between French and Spanish -
                but totally different crosses, quite distinct from each other. No doubt
                Alexei can say more about that.

                - David Bratman
              • alexeik@aol.com
                In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote: Ieu parli la lenga d òc -- l ai appresa quora eri joine. :-) ... Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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                  In a message dated 11/13/2 6:15:16 PM, Lizzie wrote:

                  <<> Ieu parli la lenga d'òc -- l'ai appresa quora eri joine. :-)

                  >

                  Ooh what does that mean, Alexei?>>

                  It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
                  Alexei
                • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                  In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really? Not something you
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 13, 2002
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                    In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    alexeik@... writes:

                    > It just means "I speak Occitan -- I learned it when I was young".
                    >
                    I guessed the first part, the second was the stumper. So did you really?
                    Not something you pick up in school over here, I suspect.

                    I am so sorry I didn't get to that con this summer... you and Connie Willis,
                    what a combination...

                    Lizzie


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