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Re: [mythsoc] Two questions

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  • Berni Phillips
    From: ... sort ... Susan, you need to get in contact with Dr. Bruce Leonard, a Colorado mythie. He s a psychiatrist in Columbine. At this
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 12, 2002
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      From: <SusanPal@...>

      > *My* interest in pursuing the issue is to examine
      > the ways in which fantasy allows people to respond to trauma -- of any
      sort
      > -- in *productive* (rather than "escapist") ways that aren't possible in
      > realist narrative.

      Susan, you need to get in contact with Dr. Bruce Leonard, a Colorado mythie.
      He's a psychiatrist in Columbine. At this most recent Mythcon, Dan Timmons
      showed the video he had been filming last year, which includes interviews
      with various members of the Mythopoeic Society.

      In the video, Bruce said that, in his practice, he found that many of his
      younger patients had read _The Lord of the Rings_. He eventually caught on
      that finding who they identified with was a tremendous indicator of how
      badly damaged they were and the prospect of recovery. (I'm probably
      misrepresenting him terribly, but this is my impression of what was said.)
      He found that patients who identified with Frodo had much, much better
      chances of recovery than those who identified with Gollum. (Me, I never
      even conceived of someone identifying with Gollum.)

      Some years earlier (the first Colorado Mythcon?) he gave a splendid paper on
      Frodo as a sufferer of post-tramatic stress syndrome.

      Berni
    • SusanPal@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/12/2002 5:32:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Wow. Good heavens! The LotR Personality Quiz: better than the Myer-Briggs . . . . This
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 12, 2002
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        In a message dated 8/12/2002 5:32:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
        bernip@... writes:


        > He found that patients who identified with Frodo had much, much better
        > chances of recovery than those who identified with Gollum. (Me, I never
        > even conceived of someone identifying with Gollum.)
        >

        Wow. Good heavens! The LotR Personality Quiz: better than the Myer-Briggs
        . . . .

        This does sound fascinating (and someone else mentioned his name a while ago;
        I've been really slow about responding to posts because I just got a bear of
        a work project off my back this morning). Thanks for the recommendation!

        Susan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Merlin DeTardo
        I was searching for something else when I stumbled on this interesting old post, but I can t find that there was ever any follow- up on one small point, by
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 5, 2007
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          I was searching for something else when I stumbled on this
          interesting old post, but I can't find that there was ever any follow-
          up on one small point, by Michael Martinez or anyone else:

          "...Denethor sports a long white beard..."

          Was Denethor bearded? I didn't know that, and I can't find a
          reference to it in The Lord of the Rings. Does anyone have a
          citation?

          I know of a website that purports to list the eye and hair colors
          (including beards) of all the characters in LotR, The Hobbit, The
          Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales:

          http://www.lcwsites.org/~lisa/colors.html

          but even if that site is completely accurate, merely not listing a
          beard color for Denethor doesn't mean there is no beard, only that
          its color is not given in the text of those books.

          Is Denethor described as having a beard elsewhere? In LotR drafts,
          perhaps?

          I did read an interesting short essay on Denethor about a year ago
          that noted that his face is described in more detail than most other
          characters in LotR:

          http://www.theonering.net/rumour_mill/rpg/viewer/readingroom/43A9E62C0
          0023776.html

          Nothing there about a beard (or lack of one), however.

          -Merlin DeTardo


          >>--- Mysthoc message #6263
          >>--- On Aug 7, 2002 6:17 pm, "michael_martinez2" <michael@...> wrote:
          >>This whole "bearded Elves" issue has caused a great deal of
          discussion through the years. Happily, it can all be resolved with a
          few citations....which I am unable to provide, because I'm about to
          leave work and don't know when my Internet access at home will be
          restored. Still, here is what I can recall on my own. Treat it as a
          rough summation of the facts, subject to correction at a later time.

          >>The passage in UNFINISHED TALES is found in the chapter on
          Galadriel and Celeborn and is in one of the appendices. It concerns
          Prince Imrahil's Elvish ancestry, and Christopher Tolkien paraphrases
          some late-life essay of his father's. Many readers have taken this
          as the final word in Elf beards.

          >>But it's not. A couple of issues back, VINYAR TENGWAR published
          some additional material for "The Shibboleth of Feanor". In one of
          the notes associated with this material, JRRT writes that Nerdanel's
          father was remarkable for having grown a beard in the Second Cycle
          (of his life).

          >>The reader is left to infer that all male Elves normally grow
          beards when they reach their Third Cycle (no clues, yet, as to what
          defines a cycle of life). Cirdan, by inference (rather than
          implication, since the note does not mention him), must have long
          since reached his Third Cycle by the end of the Third Age.

          >>Since Denethor sports a long white beard, and since the statue of
          the Gondorian king by the crossroads (where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum
          watch the army from Minas Morgul pass by) has a beard, it must be
          accepted that Dunadan men DID grow beards, but perhaps because of
          their Elvish ancestry (THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH says that the
          Stewards were "ultimately of royal origin"), some of the Dunedain did
          not grow beards until THEIR Third Cycle (or some Dunadan/half-elf
          equivalent of the full Elvish Third Cycle).
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          ... ago ... other ... In the absence of other evidence, I would apply ejusdem generis here and say he was (probably) beardless. Of course that says nothing
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 5, 2007
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
            wrote:


            >
            > I did read an interesting short essay on Denethor about a year
            ago
            > that noted that his face is described in more detail than most
            other
            > characters in LotR:

            In the absence of other evidence, I would apply ejusdem generis
            here and say he was (probably) beardless. Of course that says
            nothing about his genetics, just his razor.

            Take MM with a grain of salt- he does tend to extrapolate
            "facts" where there are only possibilities. The "true" answer is
            dormitat Homerus: Tolkien really wasn't paying attention when he
            stuck beards on Cirdan and the ancient statue. Convincing as
            Tolkien is, there isn't actually an underlying reality to be
            plumbed!
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