Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

[mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'

Expand Messages
  • Pauline J. Alama
    Thanks for the link to the Camelot Page. Actually, what I meant is one step further in the links: http://www.teamsmedieval.org/ Pauline J. Alama THE EYE OF
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
      Thanks for the link to the Camelot Page. Actually, what I meant is one step further in the links:
      http://www.teamsmedieval.org/


      Pauline J. Alama
      THE EYE OF NIGHT
      (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)


      --- On Tue 06/11, michael_martinez2 wrote:
      From: michael_martinez2 [mailto: michael@...]
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue 06/11
      Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'

      > --- In mythsoc@y..., "Pauline J. Alama"
      > wrote:
      > > The people to contact about an obscure Middle English text would
      > > be the ones producing the TEAMS series of Middle English texts --
      > > if anyone is working on an edition of King Alisaunder, it would be
      > > that lot. Unfortunately, the e-mail address I had for Alan Lupack
      > > when I was tangentially connected to this endeavor seems to be
      > > obsolete now. I will look around the web & see what I can find.
      >
      > You mean this group?
      >
      > http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/tmsmenu.htm
      >
      > That's quite a resource.
      >
      > I'll have to set aside some time to browse it. Unfortunately, they
      > don't have "Kyng Alisaunder" in the online texts.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ---------------------~-->
      > Will You Find True Love?
      > Will You Meet the One?
      > Free Love Reading by phone!
      > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/DtIolB/TM
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >

      ------------------------------------------------
      Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
      The most personalized portal on the Web!


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James P. Robinson III
      As the clock struck 10:28 AM 6/11/2002 -0700, David S. Bratman took pen in ... I hate to speak without being able to look at sources, so feel free to fire away
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
        As the clock struck 10:28 AM 6/11/2002 -0700, David S. Bratman took pen in
        hand and wrote:
        >Here's the pre-modern citations of "oliphant" from the OED online edition:
        >
        >[c1205 LAY. 23778 He [a shield] wes al clane of olifantes bane.] 13.. _K.
        >Alis._ 1182 To mouth he set his olifaunt. c1489 CAXTON _Blanchardyn_ xlv,
        >Many an horne, many an olyphaunt, & many a claryon & trompettes were blowen.

        I hate to speak without being able to look at sources, so feel free to fire
        away where I am wrong, but I believe these citations are only to the early
        English uses of the word. Unless I am mistaken the word appeared earlier
        in Old (or Middle) French and derived from a similar Latin word used in
        earlier Medieval bestiaries.

        Jim
      • tedsherman@comcast.net
        For those looking for versions of King Alisaunder, one (a diplomatic transcription of the National Library of Scotland s Auchinleck ms) is available online:
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
          For those looking for versions of King Alisaunder, one (a diplomatic
          transcription of the National Library of Scotland's Auchinleck ms) is
          available online:
          http://faculty.washington.edu/miceal/auchinleck/kingalisaunder.html
          The above link is within this larger set of pages:
          http://faculty.washington.edu/miceal/auchinleck/editions.html

          A digitized facsimile of the Bodleian ms containing King Alisaunder,
          Bodleian Ms. 264, is available here:
          http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msbodl264

          The Smithers EETS volume (volume 1) may be ordered here:
          http://www.boydell.co.uk/1951.HTM

          Ted
          ------------------------------
          Dr. Theodore J. Sherman, Editor
          Mythlore: A Journal of J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles Williams, and
          Mythopoeic Literature
          Associate Professor of English
          Box X041, Middle Tennessee State University
          Murfreesboro, TN 37132
          615 898-2653 Office
          615 898-5098 FAX
          tsherman@... Office
          tedsherman@... Home


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James P. Robinson III" <jprobins@...>
          To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'


          > As the clock struck 10:28 AM 6/11/2002 -0700, David S. Bratman took pen in
          > hand and wrote:
          > >Here's the pre-modern citations of "oliphant" from the OED online
          edition:
          > >
          > >[c1205 LAY. 23778 He [a shield] wes al clane of olifantes bane.] 13.. _K.
          > >Alis._ 1182 To mouth he set his olifaunt. c1489 CAXTON _Blanchardyn_ xlv,
          > >Many an horne, many an olyphaunt, & many a claryon & trompettes were
          blowen.
          >
          > I hate to speak without being able to look at sources, so feel free to
          fire
          > away where I am wrong, but I believe these citations are only to the early
          > English uses of the word. Unless I am mistaken the word appeared earlier
          > in Old (or Middle) French and derived from a similar Latin word used in
          > earlier Medieval bestiaries.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Matthew Winslow
          ... ghoti gh from tough o from women ti from nation ... Actually, you can spell about 90% of the words with just a simple handful of spelling
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
            Lisa Deutsch Harrigan [lisa@...] wrote:
            > But I must admit I like the true modernist stuff like nite. What's that weird
            > spelling of fish?

            ghoti

            'gh' from 'tough'
            'o' from 'women'
            'ti' from 'nation'

            > This language really needs to work on its phonetics and
            > make it more phonetic.

            Actually, you can spell about 90% of the words with just a simple handful of
            spelling rules. No, they're not phonetic, but they are remarkably consistent
            -- or at least more consistent than we usually give them credit for.

            --
            Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
            "The best that can be said for most [politicians] is that they have not yet
            been indicted."
            --Richard Mitchell
            Currently reading: The Green Man by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling
          • David S. Bratman
            ... Indeed, these citations are only to English forms. They are, as I wrote, from the OED, which stands for Oxford English Dictionary and is a dictionary of
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
              At 11:39 AM 6/11/2002 , Jim Robinson wrote:
              >As the clock struck 10:28 AM 6/11/2002 -0700, David S. Bratman took pen in
              >hand and wrote:
              >>Here's the pre-modern citations of "oliphant" from the OED online edition:
              >>
              >>[c1205 LAY. 23778 He [a shield] wes al clane of olifantes bane.] 13.. _K.
              >>Alis._ 1182 To mouth he set his olifaunt. c1489 CAXTON _Blanchardyn_ xlv,
              >>Many an horne, many an olyphaunt, & many a claryon & trompettes were blowen.
              >
              >I hate to speak without being able to look at sources, so feel free to fire
              >away where I am wrong, but I believe these citations are only to the early
              >English uses of the word. Unless I am mistaken the word appeared earlier
              >in Old (or Middle) French and derived from a similar Latin word used in
              >earlier Medieval bestiaries.

              Indeed, these citations are only to English forms. They are, as I wrote,
              from the OED, which stands for "Oxford English Dictionary" and is a
              dictionary of Middle and Modern English.

              Of the etymology of the word "oliphant," the OED writes "OF. _olifant_: see
              ELEPHANT." "OF" stands for Old French. Further under "elephant" the OED
              writes, "corrupt form of L[atin] _elephantum, elephantem_."

              I see on checking "elephant" that sense 1, the animal, gives three 14th
              century citations with O-spellings, one of them from _King Alisaunder_:
              olifauns, olyfont, and olifuntz. The earliest E-spelling given dates from
              1340. There are also two later O-spelling citations, the last of which
              dates from 1555 and reads "The elephante (which sum caule an oliphant) is
              the biggest of all foure footed beastes." So that takes care of that.

              David Bratman
            • Croft, Janet B
              ghoti gh as in laugh or tough o as in women ti as in -tion (action) George Bernard Shaw thought this one up. I keep expecting fish jokes in
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
                ghoti


                "gh" as in "laugh" or "tough"

                "o" as in "women"

                "ti" as in "-tion" (action)

                George Bernard Shaw thought this one up. I keep expecting fish jokes in
                Inspector Ghoti novels, but I don't recall encountering any...

                Janet Croft

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan [mailto:lisa@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:29 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'


                My Chaucer teacher was real fast in teaching us the phonetics of ME. I still
                remember most of it many years later. Having also taken OE helps a bit.
                (It's
                All Tolkien's Fault!) But I'm lousy at languages,even Modern English can
                through me for a loop, so I'm just a passing scholar. Though it is fun to
                use
                an older pronunciation to a modern word that's kept the old spelling <g>.

                But I must admit I like the true modernist stuff like nite. What's that
                weird
                spelling of fish? This language really needs to work on its phonetics and
                make it more phonetic. Or as Mark Twain once said "I never trust a man who
                spells a word the same way twice".

                Mythically yours,
                Lisa

                michael_martinez2 wrote:

                >
                > I hate reading Middle English spellings. I used to be better at it,
                > but I'm a modernist, through and through. I feel no shame in
                > that. :)
                >
                >




                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                ADVERTISEMENT

                <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=228437.2111410.3570679.2052423/D=egroupweb/S=17050202
                27:HM/A=1110362/R=0/*www.iuniverse.com/publish>

                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=228437.2111410.3570679.2052423/D=egroupmai
                l/S=1705020227:HM/A=1110362/rand=534897432>

                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                <http://www.mythsoc.org>

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Wayne G. Hammond
                ... All of which will be listed in _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Companion and Guide_, due to be published next spring -- provided that Christina and I get it finished in
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
                  David Bratman wrote:

                  >On the subject of the relative importance of Old and Middle English to
                  >Tolkien, it might be worth noting that I've seen lists of some of the
                  >lecture series he gave, and dissertations he supervised, in official Oxford
                  >University publications.

                  All of which will be listed in _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Companion and Guide_, due
                  to be published next spring -- provided that Christina and I get it
                  finished in time -- by HarperCollins U.K. and Houghton Mifflin in the U.S.

                  Wayne
                • Stolzi@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/11/02 1:01:58 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Ooh! I must look it up. I liked the stronge hondes of Albayne a lot until I realized they
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
                    In a message dated 6/11/02 1:01:58 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    jprobins@... writes:


                    > Alex. went under the sea in a
                    > sort of medieval glass submarine thingy.
                    >


                    Ooh! I must look it up.

                    I liked the "stronge hondes of Albayne" a lot until I realized they weren't
                    =strange= Albanian hounds (any kin to Dalmatian hounds?) but just =strong=
                    Albanian hounds.

                    And what's up with those one-horned bulls (who =aren't= unicorns?)

                    Diamond Proudbrook


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stolzi@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/11/02 10:57:48 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I wasn t really advancing that seriously, just pointing to it in a pleased manner. Iumbo -
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 11, 2002
                      In a message dated 6/11/02 10:57:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
                      Wayne.G.Hammond@... writes:


                      > "Oliphaunts", I'm afraid, is a coincidence


                      I wasn't really advancing that seriously, just pointing to it in a pleased
                      manner.

                      "Iumbo" - I love it!!

                      DP


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • trudygshaw
                      Thanks, Janet. Believe it or not, I ve been trying for the last couple of weeks to get my memory to come up with that women match for the o . The other
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 12, 2002
                        Thanks, Janet. Believe it or not, I've been trying for the last couple of weeks to get my memory to come up with that "women" match for the "o". The other two I don't seem to forget. -- Trudy
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Croft, Janet B
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:34 PM
                        Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'


                        ghoti


                        "gh" as in "laugh" or "tough"

                        "o" as in "women"

                        "ti" as in "-tion" (action)

                        George Bernard Shaw thought this one up. I keep expecting fish jokes in
                        Inspector Ghoti novels, but I don't recall encountering any...

                        Janet Croft

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan [mailto:lisa@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:29 PM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and 'King Alisaunder'


                        My Chaucer teacher was real fast in teaching us the phonetics of ME. I still
                        remember most of it many years later. Having also taken OE helps a bit.
                        (It's
                        All Tolkien's Fault!) But I'm lousy at languages,even Modern English can
                        through me for a loop, so I'm just a passing scholar. Though it is fun to
                        use
                        an older pronunciation to a modern word that's kept the old spelling <g>.

                        But I must admit I like the true modernist stuff like nite. What's that
                        weird
                        spelling of fish? This language really needs to work on its phonetics and
                        make it more phonetic. Or as Mark Twain once said "I never trust a man who
                        spells a word the same way twice".

                        Mythically yours,
                        Lisa

                        michael_martinez2 wrote:

                        >
                        > I hate reading Middle English spellings. I used to be better at it,
                        > but I'm a modernist, through and through. I feel no shame in
                        > that. :)
                        >
                        >




                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                        ADVERTISEMENT

                        <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=228437.2111410.3570679.2052423/D=egroupweb/S=17050202
                        27:HM/A=1110362/R=0/*www.iuniverse.com/publish>

                        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=228437.2111410.3570679.2052423/D=egroupmai
                        l/S=1705020227:HM/A=1110362/rand=534897432>

                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        <http://www.mythsoc.org>

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT




                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • hobbitmrw
                        ... I don t know about you, but I m not sure sex with a hundred rhinoceros and elephants would tempt me. (Just kidding, couldn t resist). Matt ... offers King
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 12, 2002
                          --- In mythsoc@y..., Stolzi@a... wrote:

                          I don't know about you, but I'm not sure sex with a hundred rhinoceros
                          and elephants would tempt me. (Just kidding, couldn't resist).

                          Matt

                          > Here's just some of the stuff that Candace, queen of Ethiopia,
                          offers King
                          > Alisaunder (she's in love with him, natch)
                          >
                          > Yut þou shalt habbe sex hundreþ rinoceros,
                          > 6699 And fyue hundreþ olifauntz and sex hundreþ perdos,
                          > 6700 And two hundreþ vnicornes,
                          > 6701 And fyue hundreþ boles wiþ one horne,
                          > 6702 And foure hundreþ lyouns white,
                          > 6703 And a þousande þat wel connen byte,
                          > 6704 Olyfauntz and lyouns on playne,
                          > 6705 Stronge houndes of Albayne,
                          > 6706 And fyue hundreþ ceptres of golde,
                          > 6707 And my londe al to wolde,
                          >
                          > Notice the Olyfauntz in particular.
                          >
                          > Diamond Proudbrook
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.