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Two Questions

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  • Marianne Dole
    Hello, I am going to be in Portland Oregon for two months, beginning in July, and I would like to know if there is a branch of the society there. I know
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 11, 2002
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      Hello,

      I am going to be in Portland Oregon for two months, beginning in July, and I
      would like to know if there is a branch of the society there. I know Mythcon
      is taking place during that time, but unfortunately, I haven't mastered the
      art of bilocation yet.

      My second question is this: Could someone please send me an e-mail address
      for the Elven Linguistic Fellowship? I am very interested in contacting
      them, and the link on their web site didn't seem to work. May be my
      inexperience with web surfing. I must say the posts about the lexicon this
      morning were a torment, as even if I had the Parma Eldalamberon cited,
      couldn't read it. Sigh! Ah well. Thanks for your responses.

      Mari
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... That s me!
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 11, 2002
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        On 6/11/02 11:43 AM, "Marianne Dole" <madole@...> wrote:

        > My second question is this: Could someone please send me an e-mail address
        > for the Elven Linguistic Fellowship?

        That's me!

        |======================================================================|
        | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
        | |
        | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
        | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
        | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
        | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
        | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
        |======================================================================|
      • JTHeyman@juno.com
        Lo. I ve been mostly lurking on and off for a few years and had a question that I hope this list can finally answer for me to remove any remaining confusion:
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 12, 2004
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          'Lo. I've been mostly lurking on and off for a few years and had a
          question that I hope this list can finally answer for me to remove any
          remaining confusion: What, exactly, does "mythopoeic" mean?

          I've looked it up in dictionaries and had a college professor explain it
          to me, but I'm still not 100% certain I understand it (I can be dense,
          sometimes). As I understand it, Middle Earth is a mythopoeic creation,
          as is Narnia, but they are fairly easy. Peter S, Beagle's "The Folk of
          the Air" won the Mythopoeic Award, but I'm not sure how that qualified.
          And, if I understand the term correctly, H.P. Lovecraft's unnamed
          dreamworld (mentioned in many tales, and in which he takes us touring in
          "The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath") would qualify. But I'm not sure
          about that one. I'd appreciate any clarification the list could give.

          And a second, unrelated question regarding something I saw posted on
          another list: How important is the sense of place in a mythopoeic work?
          There has always been an undercurrent of chatter in the media about
          Middle Earth and whether or not it was based on real geography of the
          planet Earth. The question was raised in me when that writer on another
          list discussed the following: In the 1990's Felice Vinci published an
          essay and a book about "Homer in the Baltics" in which, based almost
          solely on place-names and island geography, he said the Iliad and Odyssey
          were probably Nordic tales transplanted to the Mediterranean when the
          northerners invaded the region centuries earlier. If you read the Iliad
          and Odyssey as Nordic tales instead of Greek tales, how important is that
          to the tales themselves? If someone discovers that an area in Africa, or
          on the Martian surface for that matter, corresponds too closely to
          Tolkien's maps of Middle Earth, would that change how we should think
          about it? Or does the mythopoeic work exist apart from a sense of place
          ... as in the land of Faerie, where what we find is what we bring there
          in our hearts?

          ~ JTHeyman
          No answers ... just questions.

          ________________________________________________________________
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        • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
          Mythopoeic - of, or engaged in, the making of myths (from my Webster s New World Dictionary) How do we use it? Broadly. Our mandate is to discuss the works of
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 13, 2004
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            Mythopoeic - of, or engaged in, the making of myths (from my Webster's
            New World Dictionary)

            How do we use it? Broadly.

            Our mandate is to discuss the works of Tolkien, Lewis & Williams and
            other Fantasy writers. We try to avoid the more obvious religious tracts
            of our writers in discussion, but many in the group read them, and use
            them to better understand the fantasy works that were written. Jung and
            other books about the making of Myths are also discussed on occasion. As
            are the the original myths of Greek & Roman & Beowulf, and any other
            cultures. Seems someone should be discussing Troy these days - and does
            that even count as Myth now that they've found the city?

            It's complex and hard to put a tight defnition on, and it should be that
            way. Myth making is a complex and hard to pin down process, to be
            enjoyed by all.

            Mythically yours,
            Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
            Tresurer, The Mythopoeic Society

            JTHeyman@... wrote:

            >'Lo. I've been mostly lurking on and off for a few years and had a
            >question that I hope this list can finally answer for me to remove any
            >remaining confusion: What, exactly, does "mythopoeic" mean?
            >
            >I've looked it up in dictionaries and had a college professor explain it
            >to me, but I'm still not 100% certain I understand it (I can be dense,
            >sometimes). As I understand it, Middle Earth is a mythopoeic creation,
            >as is Narnia, but they are fairly easy. Peter S, Beagle's "The Folk of
            >the Air" won the Mythopoeic Award, but I'm not sure how that qualified.
            >And, if I understand the term correctly, H.P. Lovecraft's unnamed
            >dreamworld (mentioned in many tales, and in which he takes us touring in
            >"The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath") would qualify. But I'm not sure
            >about that one. I'd appreciate any clarification the list could give.
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Michael Martinez
            ... I have never heard of anyone trying to associate The Iliad and/or The Odyssey with any regions other than Homer s Aegean and Asian settings. However,
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 14, 2004
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, JTHeyman@j... wrote:
              > And a second, unrelated question regarding something I saw posted on
              > another list: How important is the sense of place in a mythopoeic
              > work?
              > There has always been an undercurrent of chatter in the media about
              > Middle Earth and whether or not it was based on real geography of
              > the planet Earth. The question was raised in me when that writer
              > on another list discussed the following: In the 1990's Felice
              > Vinci published an essay and a book about "Homer in the Baltics"
              > in which, based almost solely on place-names and island geography,
              > he said the Iliad and Odyssey were probably Nordic tales
              > transplanted to the Mediterranean when the northerners invaded the
              > region centuries earlier. If you read the Iliad and Odyssey as
              > Nordic tales instead of Greek tales, how important is that to the
              > tales themselves? If someone discovers that an area in Africa, or
              > on the Martian surface for that matter, corresponds too closely to
              > Tolkien's maps of Middle Earth, would that change how we should
              > think about it? Or does the mythopoeic work exist apart from a
              > sense of place ... as in the land of Faerie, where what we find
              > is what we bring there in our hearts?

              I have never heard of anyone trying to associate "The Iliad" and/or
              "The Odyssey" with any regions other than Homer's Aegean and Asian
              settings.

              However, Tolkien threw the pot into the wind and let the stew fall
              where it would with Middle-earth geography.

              THE LORD OF THE RINGS was originally supposed to be nothing more than
              a sequel to THE HOBBIT. THE HOBBIT had only a partially defined
              geography laid out on two maps (the map of wilderland and Thror's map
              of the Lonely Mountain).

              While writing THE LORD OF THE RINGS, Tolkien gradually extended the
              geography of THE HOBBIT westward and south until he produced the map
              which was (after recopying by his son Christopher) published in THE
              LORD OF THE RINGS. That finished map actually represented a merger
              between the geography of Tolkien's HOBBIT and his then unpublished
              SILMARILLION. Christopher Tolkien notes, in THE HISTORY OF
              MIDDLE-EARTH, that his father's LoTR was drawn to the same scale as
              the second Silmarrillion map, so that they could have been overlain.

              J.R.R. Tolkien suggested in the Prologue to THE LORD OF THE RINGS that
              the story is set in our own world, when he wrote about Hobbits:

              Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past,
              and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions
              in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those
              in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World,
              east of the Sea....

              In various letters, Tolkien described Middle-earth as "our world",
              "round and inescapable", "the habitable lands of Men", and so forth.
              He struggled, however, to identify the geography of Middle-earth with
              actual Terrestial geography. He occasionally made comparisons,
              suggesting equivalent locations between various real and Middle-earth
              places to provide a sense of scale or cultural magnitude.

              Tolkien expressed regret in at least one letter that he did not use a
              real map of Europe for THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

              So, in his case, the geography is feigned "true European" geography as
              it should have been prior to some cataclysmic upheaval (not described
              in the texts) which changed the face of the lands.

              Since Tolkien said in one letter that he imagined the events of the
              late Third Age to have occurred about 6,000 years ago, a Biblical
              cataclysm presents itself as the logical connection point between the
              geography of Middle-earth and the real geography (which really does
              extend back into prehistory anyway): the Great Deluge, Noah's flood.
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