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Re: [mythsoc] Query

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  • Margaret Dean
    ... The Debate of Finrod and Andreth is in Volume Ten of the History of Middle-earth series. I couldn t help wondering, myself, how a Talking Book would deal
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 12, 2002
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      Marianne Dole wrote:
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > I read David Bratman's post this morning about the Debate of Finrod and
      > Andreth, which whetted my curiosity unbearably. I then called the public
      > library here, and talked to a delightful woman who is another Tolkien fan,
      > but she could not tell me which volume of The History of Middle-earth
      > contains it. What I'm hoping to do is find it and scan it to disc for myself
      > (not distribute it) as I'm sure Talking Books will never read it. Would one
      > of you please let me know which volume contains this section. Actually, I'd
      > love to read the whole series. Sigh! I have a friend who does document
      > scanning, which is how I will be reading Mythlore and Mythprint. Thank you
      > for your help.

      The Debate of Finrod and Andreth is in Volume Ten of the History
      of Middle-earth series.

      I couldn't help wondering, myself, how a Talking Book would deal
      with books like these, with a large quantity of footnotes, end
      notes, editorial commentary and the like. I'm the type of person
      who always has to read the notes, so I end up flipping back and
      forth constantly from main text to notes and back again. Is
      there some kind of standard procedure for a Talking Book with
      scholarly apparatus? Just curious.


      --Margaret Dean
      <margdean@...>
    • Marianne Dole
      Hello, I read David Bratman s post this morning about the Debate of Finrod and Andreth, which whetted my curiosity unbearably. I then called the public library
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 12, 2002
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        Hello,

        I read David Bratman's post this morning about the Debate of Finrod and
        Andreth, which whetted my curiosity unbearably. I then called the public
        library here, and talked to a delightful woman who is another Tolkien fan,
        but she could not tell me which volume of The History of Middle-earth
        contains it. What I'm hoping to do is find it and scan it to disc for myself
        (not distribute it) as I'm sure Talking Books will never read it. Would one
        of you please let me know which volume contains this section. Actually, I'd
        love to read the whole series. Sigh! I have a friend who does document
        scanning, which is how I will be reading Mythlore and Mythprint. Thank you
        for your help.

        Marianne Dole
      • David S. Bratman
        Marianne - The Debate or Athrabeth is in the volume Morgoth s Ring , volume ten of The History of Middle-earth. A detailed table of contents of the whole
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 12, 2002
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          Marianne -

          The Debate or Athrabeth is in the volume "Morgoth's Ring", volume ten of
          The History of Middle-earth.

          A detailed table of contents of the whole History is online at
          http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html


          David Bratman
        • michael_martinez2
          ... Which is called MORGOTH S RING. :) And, before anyone asks, here is a brief list of the books (once again): Pre-Silmarillion material: 1) THE BOOK OF LOST
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 12, 2002
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            --- In mythsoc@y..., Margaret Dean <margdean@e...> wrote:

            > The Debate of Finrod and Andreth is in Volume Ten of the History
            > of Middle-earth series.

            Which is called MORGOTH'S RING. :)

            And, before anyone asks, here is a brief list of the books (once
            again):

            Pre-Silmarillion material:
            1) THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, Part One
            2) THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, Part Two

            Early Silmarillion material:
            3) THE LAYS OF BELERIAND
            4) THE SHAPING OF MIDDLE-EARTH
            5) THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS

            The Lord of the Rings:
            6) THE RETURN OF THE SHADOW
            7) THE TREASON OF ISENGARD
            8) THE WAR OF THE RING
            9) SAURON DEFEATED

            Later Silmarillion material and late writings:
            10) MORGOTH'S RING
            11) THE WAR OF THE JEWELS

            LoTR appendix sources and late writings:
            12) THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH

            > I couldn't help wondering, myself, how a Talking Book would deal
            > with books like these, with a large quantity of footnotes, end
            > notes, editorial commentary and the like. I'm the type of person
            > who always has to read the notes, so I end up flipping back and
            > forth constantly from main text to notes and back again. Is
            > there some kind of standard procedure for a Talking Book with
            > scholarly apparatus? Just curious.

            I would be interested in knowing that, myself. I suspect an
            interactive book would work better for scholarly materials than
            merely a standard audio book.
          • SusanPal@aol.com
            I ve mentioned this list in my Tolkien class, and today one of my students asked if she could join. I couldn t think of any reason she wouldn t be able to --
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 9, 2002
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              I've mentioned this list in my Tolkien class, and today one of my students
              asked if she could join. I couldn't think of any reason she wouldn't be able
              to -- I told her it was a fairly scholarly, Inklings-based discussion list --
              but don't want to give out list info until I've double-checked that.

              What saith the list?

              Susan
            • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
              Last I checked we are open to all people who want to discuss fantasy. We are not limited to MythSoc Members. Note - Spammers need not apply, hint, hint. Joan
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 9, 2002
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                Last I checked we are open to all people who want to discuss fantasy. We
                are not limited to MythSoc Members. Note - Spammers need not apply,
                hint, hint.

                Joan can boot them off if they are impolite.

                Mythically yours,
                Lisa

                SusanPal@... wrote:

                >I've mentioned this list in my Tolkien class, and today one of my students
                >asked if she could join. I couldn't think of any reason she wouldn't be able
                >to -- I told her it was a fairly scholarly, Inklings-based discussion list --
                >but don't want to give out list info until I've double-checked that.
                >
                >What saith the list?
                >
                >
                >
              • Joan Marie Verba
                ... As Lisa said, this list is open to anyone who wishes to discuss fantasy (especially, but not limited to, the works of Tolkien, Lewis, and Williams)--or
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 9, 2002
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                  SusanPal@... wrote:
                  >
                  > I've mentioned this list in my Tolkien class, and today one of my students
                  > asked if she could join. I couldn't think of any reason she wouldn't be able
                  > to -- I told her it was a fairly scholarly, Inklings-based discussion list --
                  > but don't want to give out list info until I've double-checked that.
                  >
                  > What saith the list?

                  As Lisa said, this list is open to anyone who wishes to discuss fantasy
                  (especially, but not limited to, the works of Tolkien, Lewis, and
                  Williams)--or just read the list discussions. One does not have to be a
                  member of the Mythopoeic Society to join the list. And one can read the
                  messages on the web without joining the list.

                  So feel free to give list subscription instructions to anyone you feel
                  might be interested!

                  Joan
                  Friendly Neighborhood Mythsoc List Administrator
                  ******************************************
                  Joan Marie Verba
                  verba001@...
                  http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                • David S. Bratman
                  Susan - It s an open list, as others have observed, so you can pass along list subscription info to anyone you d like. But, so they will get the most out of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 9, 2002
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                    Susan -

                    It's an open list, as others have observed, so you can pass along list
                    subscription info to anyone you'd like. But, so they will get the most out
                    of it and we will get the most out of them, I'd advise pushing it
                    specifically towards those students you think will make the best
                    contributions; perhaps you could also show them some of your own posts
                    (which you need no one else's permission to do) to give them an idea of
                    what kind of list this is, as Tolkien and fantasy lists vary in tone and
                    approach a lot.

                    - David Bratman
                  • SusanPal@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/9/2002 11:29:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I m not giving the info to the entire class; one student asked because I d mentioned the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 10, 2002
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                      In a message dated 9/9/2002 11:29:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      dbratman@... writes:


                      > I'd advise pushing it
                      > specifically towards those students you think will make the best
                      > contributions; perhaps you could also show them some of your own posts
                      > (which you need no one else's permission to do) to give them an idea of
                      > what kind of list this is, as Tolkien and fantasy lists vary in tone and
                      > approach a lot.
                      >

                      I'm not giving the info to the entire class; one student asked because I'd
                      mentioned the criticism discussion (among others) and she thought that
                      sounded interesting. And I emphasized that it was an academic/scholarly
                      rather than fannish list, and that it was devoted to all the Inklings, not
                      just JRRT.

                      And in my experience, when people land on lists that aren't suited to them,
                      they tend to vanish quickly anyway!

                      Thanks,
                      Susan


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • SusanPal@aol.com
                      Hello, all! I m delurking for a moment to ask a question. Next summer I ll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE RINGS for gifted-and-talented
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 11, 2004
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                        Hello, all! I'm delurking for a moment to ask a question.

                        Next summer I'll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE RINGS
                        for gifted-and-talented kids. I've taught writing seminars for this same
                        outfit twice now, and the ages range from seven to eighteen. They're all
                        enormously precocious intellectually, but the emotional-maturity level varies
                        hugely, as you'd expect.

                        Right now I'm trying to figure out how to structure this seminar and what
                        approach to take. These courses are normally five days, but I think I'll
                        recommend that this one be six, so we can discuss one Book of LotR a day; that's a
                        neat division. The larger issue is how to approach the material
                        thematically. I'll probably write a mini-lecture for each day, pointing out highlights
                        in that day's material, informing them of any JRRT biographical issues that
                        seem pertinent, and asking a range of discussion questions, so the students
                        can talk about the aspect of the reading that appeals to them most. (These
                        seminars are very free-form and ungraded, which makes things much easier on the
                        instructor). As a middle-aged woman, I'm most interested in issues of
                        mortality and grief in LotR, but I don't expect those topics to resonate for these
                        students! They're probably going to be most excited about the
                        world-and-language-building aspects of Tolkien's work; that's what tends to fascinate my
                        college students, and it's certainly what hooked me, at that age. But I want
                        to stay out of "elves are cool and here's my fanfic" territory, and I'm not
                        qualified to talk about heavy-duty linguistic matters.

                        Has anyone here taught LotR to a similar population? Do you have any ideas
                        about topics or approaches that are particularly successful with this kind of
                        student?

                        Thanks,
                        Susan


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Bratman
                        I hope that Mike Foster, Tolkien instructor par excellence, has time to respond to this. My inclination would be to try to lean away from the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 12, 2004
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                          I hope that Mike Foster, Tolkien instructor par excellence, has time to
                          respond to this.

                          My inclination would be to try to lean away from the running-commentary
                          model, towards the idea of highlighting for each session a major theme of
                          LOTR that's particularly appropriate for that day's Book. Perhaps the
                          morality of war for Book 3, the nature of evil for Book 4, death and the
                          desire for deathlessness in Book 5, eucatastrophe for Book 6.


                          At 05:14 PM 12/11/2004 -0500, Susan wrote:

                          >Next summer I'll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE RINGS
                          >for gifted-and-talented kids. I've taught writing seminars for this same
                          >outfit twice now, and the ages range from seven to eighteen. They're all
                          >enormously precocious intellectually, but the emotional-maturity level
                          varies
                          >hugely, as you'd expect.
                          >
                          >Right now I'm trying to figure out how to structure this seminar and what
                          >approach to take. These courses are normally five days, but I think I'll
                          >recommend that this one be six, so we can discuss one Book of LotR a day;
                        • SusanPal@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/12/2004 10:19:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, dbratman@earthlink.net writes: My inclination would be to try to lean away from the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 12, 2004
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                            In a message dated 12/12/2004 10:19:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                            dbratman@... writes:

                            "My inclination would be to try to lean away from the running-commentary
                            model, towards the idea of highlighting for each session a major theme of
                            LOTR that's particularly appropriate for that day's Book. Perhaps the
                            morality of war for Book 3, the nature of evil for Book 4, death and the
                            desire for deathlessness in Book 5, eucatastrophe for Book 6."



                            Thanks, David! That's a good idea, and one I'd been leaning towards
                            (without quite having gotten it formulated that elegantly yet). In practice, of
                            course, the kids will happily talk about whatever they want to talk about
                            anyway. That's both the beauty and the annoyance of this course structure!

                            Susan






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Croft, Janet B.
                            Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book 1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a lot about
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                              Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
                              1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
                              lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
                              self-sacrifice for book 2?


                              Janet Brennan Croft

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:15 AM
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query


                              I hope that Mike Foster, Tolkien instructor par excellence, has time to
                              respond to this.

                              My inclination would be to try to lean away from the running-commentary
                              model, towards the idea of highlighting for each session a major theme
                              of LOTR that's particularly appropriate for that day's Book. Perhaps
                              the morality of war for Book 3, the nature of evil for Book 4, death and
                              the desire for deathlessness in Book 5, eucatastrophe for Book 6.


                              At 05:14 PM 12/11/2004 -0500, Susan wrote:

                              >Next summer I'll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE
                              >RINGS for gifted-and-talented kids. I've taught writing seminars for
                              >this same outfit twice now, and the ages range from seven to eighteen.

                              >They're all enormously precocious intellectually, but the
                              >emotional-maturity level
                              varies
                              >hugely, as you'd expect.
                              >
                              >Right now I'm trying to figure out how to structure this seminar and
                              >what approach to take. These courses are normally five days, but I
                              >think I'll recommend that this one be six, so we can discuss one Book
                              >of LotR a day;




                              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • SusanPal@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/13/2004 7:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, jbcroft@ou.edu writes: Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                In a message dated 12/13/2004 7:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                jbcroft@... writes:

                                "Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
                                1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
                                lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
                                self-sacrifice for book 2?"


                                Very helpful; thanks, Janet!

                                Susan






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Bratman
                                ... I was going to suggest Faerie for Book 2, which is the book with all the Elven lands in it. Leadership, responsibility, and self-sacrifice are really
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                  At 09:20 AM 12/13/2004 -0600, Janet Brennan Croft wrote:
                                  >
                                  >Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
                                  >1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
                                  >lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
                                  >self-sacrifice for book 2?

                                  I was going to suggest Faerie for Book 2, which is the book with all the
                                  Elven lands in it. "Leadership, responsibility, and self-sacrifice" are
                                  really part of any meaningful discussion of the morality of war and facing
                                  death, which I suggested as the themes for Books 3 and 5. And also can be
                                  considered part of eucatastrophe (Book 6). I tend to think the leadership
                                  functions, though certainly present in Book 2, are (despite Gandalf's
                                  sacrifice) not as pervasive a theme as they are later on.

                                  David Bratman
                                • Mike Foster
                                  Thanks, Janet & David, I am currently up to my earlobes in final exams, with Fantasy Lit. tomorrow the last in the dance queue. So as Bokonon says: Busy busy
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                    Thanks, Janet & David,
                                    I am currently up to my earlobes in final exams, with Fantasy Lit.
                                    tomorrow the last in the dance queue. So as Bokonon says: 'Busy busy busy'.

                                    I have passed this query along to a former student, now a smial member
                                    and one of the horde eight that came up to Milwaukee from Far
                                    Westfarthingshire, who's taught Tolkien at the grade 7 level for some
                                    years. This seemed apt to the original query. So perhaps Lori Alwood
                                    will be able to help.

                                    Houghton-Mifflin has useful study guides for grade/jr. high/high school
                                    teachers approaching Tolkien that are a good starting point; available
                                    for the asking.

                                    Wise idea: enlist the help of your school librarian. I did. But then I
                                    was already married to her.

                                    Mike

                                    Croft, Janet B. wrote:

                                    >Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
                                    >1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
                                    >lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
                                    >self-sacrifice for book 2?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Janet Brennan Croft
                                    >
                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                    >From: David Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                                    >Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:15 AM
                                    >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >I hope that Mike Foster, Tolkien instructor par excellence, has time to
                                    >respond to this.
                                    >
                                    >My inclination would be to try to lean away from the running-commentary
                                    >model, towards the idea of highlighting for each session a major theme
                                    >of LOTR that's particularly appropriate for that day's Book. Perhaps
                                    >the morality of war for Book 3, the nature of evil for Book 4, death and
                                    >the desire for deathlessness in Book 5, eucatastrophe for Book 6.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >At 05:14 PM 12/11/2004 -0500, Susan wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>Next summer I'll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE
                                    >>RINGS for gifted-and-talented kids. I've taught writing seminars for
                                    >>this same outfit twice now, and the ages range from seven to eighteen.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>They're all enormously precocious intellectually, but the
                                    >>emotional-maturity level
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >varies
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>hugely, as you'd expect.
                                    >>
                                    >>Right now I'm trying to figure out how to structure this seminar and
                                    >>what approach to take. These courses are normally five days, but I
                                    >>think I'll recommend that this one be six, so we can discuss one Book
                                    >>of LotR a day;
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • SusanPal@aol.com
                                    Mike and others, Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me privately if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                      Mike and others,

                                      Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me privately
                                      if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.

                                      Best wishes,
                                      Susan Palwick


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Beth Russell
                                      ... From: SusanPal@aol.com [mailto:SusanPal@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@bumail.bradley.edu Subject:
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: SusanPal@... [mailto:SusanPal@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM
                                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@...
                                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query


                                        >Mike and others,

                                        >Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me
                                        >privately
                                        >if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.

                                        >Best wishes,
                                        >Susan Palwick


                                        Dear Susan and others, particularly Mike and David,

                                        I have been reading this series of messages avidly!! Will be teaching a
                                        course, "Enjoying The Lord of the Rings", in the continuing education
                                        dept. at our local branch of LSU in February. Have 6 2-hour sessions.
                                        Cant decide whether I have too much to cram in, or should I worry about
                                        filling up all that time!

                                        My general plan for each night is to spend one hour discussing parts of
                                        the text (one Book per session) and one hour talking about themes. But
                                        I have no idea of the size of the class or the age of the participants.
                                        For the text I thought of spending more time on scenes that are
                                        significantly different in the PJ version, e.g., the Council of Elrond
                                        vs. the Squabble of Elrond. However, I do not just want to do
                                        movie-bashing.

                                        I like David's idea of a major theme for each Book.

                                        Any comments?

                                        Beth



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Mike Foster
                                        Beth, Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble, rather than
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                          Beth,
                                          Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                                          idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                                          rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                                          favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.

                                          I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.

                                          Mike

                                          Beth Russell wrote:

                                          >
                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                          >From: SusanPal@... [mailto:SusanPal@...]
                                          >Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM
                                          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@...
                                          >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >>Mike and others,
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >>Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me
                                          >>privately
                                          >>if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >>Best wishes,
                                          >>Susan Palwick
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Dear Susan and others, particularly Mike and David,
                                          >
                                          >I have been reading this series of messages avidly!! Will be teaching a
                                          >course, "Enjoying The Lord of the Rings", in the continuing education
                                          >dept. at our local branch of LSU in February. Have 6 2-hour sessions.
                                          >Cant decide whether I have too much to cram in, or should I worry about
                                          >filling up all that time!
                                          >
                                          >My general plan for each night is to spend one hour discussing parts of
                                          >the text (one Book per session) and one hour talking about themes. But
                                          >I have no idea of the size of the class or the age of the participants.
                                          >For the text I thought of spending more time on scenes that are
                                          >significantly different in the PJ version, e.g., the Council of Elrond
                                          >vs. the Squabble of Elrond. However, I do not just want to do
                                          >movie-bashing.
                                          >
                                          >I like David's idea of a major theme for each Book.
                                          >
                                          >Any comments?
                                          >
                                          >Beth
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Beth Russell
                                          ... From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@direcway.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query ... Many
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                                            Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query

                                            >Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                                            >idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,

                                            >rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                                            >favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.

                                            >I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.

                                            >Mike

                                            Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                                            in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                                            (Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?

                                            I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                                            idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                                            to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                                            "volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                                            guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.

                                            I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                                            It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Beth
                                          • Mike Foster
                                            If you want to give them a real challenge, employ some of Jan Noble Long s brainbell jangler quizzes. As I observed in Milwaukee, they d have Christopher
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                              If you want to give them a real challenge, employ some of Jan Noble
                                              Long's brainbell jangler quizzes. As I observed in Milwaukee, they'd
                                              have Christopher scratching his head.

                                              Mike

                                              Beth Russell wrote:

                                              >
                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                              >From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                                              >Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                                              >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                                              >>idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                                              >>favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>Mike
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                                              >in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                                              >(Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?
                                              >
                                              >I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                                              >idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                                              >to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                                              >"volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                                              >guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.
                                              >
                                              >I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                                              >It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.
                                              >
                                              >Cheers,
                                              >
                                              >Beth
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Mike Foster
                                              One advantage you will have, Beth: they will all be there because they already like the story and want to talk and learn more about it. But hey, I have a final
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                                One advantage you will have, Beth: they will all be there because they
                                                already like the story and want to talk and learn more about it.

                                                But hey, I have a final in Fantasy Lit at 6 so must go.

                                                I must say I've succumbed to temptation to cite Jackson here in last
                                                days of term by writing on the occasional way-too-little way-too-late
                                                paper: "Recall Gandalf's words to Balrog in Moria"

                                                Later,
                                                Mike

                                                Beth Russell wrote:

                                                >
                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                                                >Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                                                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >>Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                                                >>idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >>rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                                                >>favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >>I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >>Mike
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                                                >in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                                                >(Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?
                                                >
                                                >I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                                                >idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                                                >to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                                                >"volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                                                >guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.
                                                >
                                                >I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                                                >It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.
                                                >
                                                >Cheers,
                                                >
                                                >Beth
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Joe Christopher
                                                I ve got a question about Gene Wolfe s _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a number of Society members
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Nov 20, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I've got a question about Gene Wolfe's _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the
                                                  nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a number of Society
                                                  members have read it. Early in the book, the female protagonist is taken to
                                                  a living mountain in Canada. (The mountain's wife lives in one of the
                                                  mountain's caves.) My question is about the source of that mountain--Wolfe
                                                  is referring to other literary works in that novel, particularly Lovecraft's
                                                  Mythos. Is that mountain from something by Lovecraft? Is it from some
                                                  other writer? I suppose it might also be from Native American myths in
                                                  Canada. (I read a paper on the novel at the South Central Modern Language
                                                  Association this fall without knowing the source of the mountain, so it's
                                                  not direly important; but one of these years I want to revise and expand
                                                  that paper--and it would be nice to know for the revision.)

                                                  I'd appreciate any information.
                                                  --Joe

                                                  P.S. Thank you, Edith, for the kind words about my book. Anthony Boucher
                                                  was important to me from the time, in junior high school, I read "The
                                                  Compleat Werewolf." I was happy to put together a book of his radio
                                                  scripts.
                                                • Lisa Padol
                                                  ... I have been told it is a reference to Cory Doctorow s novel _Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town_. -Lisa
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Nov 21, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    > I've got a question about Gene
                                                    > Wolfe's _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the
                                                    > nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a
                                                    > number of Society
                                                    > members have read it.  Early in the book, the female
                                                    > protagonist is taken to
                                                    > a living mountain in Canada.  (The mountain's wife
                                                    > lives in one of the
                                                    > mountain's caves.)  My question is about the source of
                                                    > that mountain--Wolfe
                                                    > is referring to other literary works in that novel,
                                                    > particularly Lovecraft's
                                                    > Mythos.  Is that mountain from something by
                                                    > Lovecraft?  Is it from some
                                                    > other writer?  I suppose it might also be from Native
                                                    > American myths in
                                                    > Canada.  (I read a paper on the novel at the South
                                                    > Central Modern Language
                                                    > Association this fall without knowing the source of the
                                                    > mountain, so it's
                                                    > not direly important; but one of these years I want to
                                                    > revise and expand
                                                    > that paper--and it would be nice to know for the
                                                    > revision.)

                                                    I have been told it is a reference to Cory Doctorow's novel _Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town_.

                                                    -Lisa
                                                  • CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.
                                                    I m looking for a reference about Tolkien s note on Joyce s _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe
                                                    • Andrew Higgins
                                                      Dr Christopher As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
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                                                        Dr Christopher 

                                                        As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the manuscripts of Tolkien's Secret Vice papers held at the Bodleian Library, Oxford two pages of notes on Joyce's Finnegan's Wake (MS Tolkien 24 fols 44-45) Fimi, 2010, p. 210. I also believe in one of the Parma Eldalamberon's there is a page that includes part of Anna Livia Plurabelle - will look when I get home. 

                                                        Hope that helps 
                                                        Andy 


                                                        From the IPAD of: 
                                                        Andrew Higgins 
                                                        Director of Development 
                                                        Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)

                                                        IPhone 07447644884 

                                                        Lif is læne: eal scæceð leoht and lif somod [life is fleeting: everything hastens away, light and life together]” (Beowulf trans by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1936). 

                                                        On 20 Jun 2014, at 18:06, "'CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.' jchristopher@... [mythsoc]" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                         

                                                        I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe

                                                      • Jeremy Edmonds
                                                        Tolkien Gateway has most of the references noted at least - hope one or more of these helps! http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/James_Joyce On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Tolkien Gateway has most of the references noted at least - hope one or more of these helps!





                                                          On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Andrew Higgins asthiggins@... [mythsoc] <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                           

                                                          Dr Christopher 

                                                          As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the manuscripts of Tolkien's Secret Vice papers held at the Bodleian Library, Oxford two pages of notes on Joyce's Finnegan's Wake (MS Tolkien 24 fols 44-45) Fimi, 2010, p. 210. I also believe in one of the Parma Eldalamberon's there is a page that includes part of Anna Livia Plurabelle - will look when I get home. 

                                                          Hope that helps 
                                                          Andy 


                                                          From the IPAD of: 
                                                          Andrew Higgins 
                                                          Director of Development 
                                                          Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)

                                                          IPhone 07447644884 

                                                          Lif is læne: eal scæceð leoht and lif somod [life is fleeting: everything hastens away, light and life together]” (Beowulf trans by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1936). 

                                                          On 20 Jun 2014, at 18:06, "'CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.' jchristopher@... [mythsoc]" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe


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